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Offlinevatoloco
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST
    #603509 - 04/09/02 06:19 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)



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Offlinenw2shroom
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: vatoloco]
    #603793 - 04/10/02 12:45 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

hey, i also have had the same problems, I also use rye grain quart jars

at first I was using a "floating boat" type of incubator , and got wet spot- the grain was too wet( as i recall, I think you repilied telling me that it was too much humidity)
now I am using box in box incubator
and all is good,
I soak the jars in bleach for a day before i use them , i also presoak the grain 5 to 12 hours.
I use the ratio 3/4 cup of rye to 150ml of water, before i was using too much water and now it works just fine, make shure that youre water content isnt too high, that'll get you too


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: vatoloco]
    #604234 - 04/10/02 01:31 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Here are my recommendations, having been walked down your path. I changed a lot of things at once and I don't know 100% what all mattered or not.

1) if you are using the oven tek, make a glove box instead
2) increase the cook time for the rye berries to at least 1.5 hrs at 15 psi. My friend cooks her rye for 1.5 hrs at 28 psi (not 15).
3) presoak the rye berries for 12 hours
4) decrease the amount of water (may not be needed if you are increasing the cook time)
5) get that humidifier away from/out of your incubator!!!! you want a fairly dry incubator to reduce contamination during colonization. This is probably your number one problem.
6) if you reuse jars, and are having problems, try PCing the jars empty for 20 minutes at 15psi.
7) clean all your furniture, carpets, drapes, curtains, etc. Change out the furnace filters. Make sure nothing is creating drafts in your work area... (unless you are using a flow hood)
8) do not leave your jars in the PC to cool down. Once the pressure has dropped on its own, take the burning hot jars out and shake them up immediately
9) use a filter disk with your jars instead of taped holes
10) make sure your spores are not contaminated. grow out mycelium on antibiotical agar (wet spot is a bacteria) and transfer the clean agar wedge


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: Seuss]
    #604298 - 04/10/02 02:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Good post, Seuss!

By the description the problem is bacterial contamination, partially due to an excess of water but mainly insuficient sterilisation.

Basically follow Seuss? advice and use a tad less water, then it should work out.
If you get bacterial contamination regardless, try sterilizing the jars a second time after they have rested for 24 hours.
Don?t forget to shake them thoroughly after the first pressure cooking.
Check this out: http://www.google.de/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=de&q=tyndallization


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OfflineVisigoth
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: Anno]
    #604565 - 04/10/02 07:11 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

allright I'm having the same problem w. birdseed. Only the contam appears as a slimy milky brownish coffee colored area that's just gooey. Can this contam be dealt w. by the same directions as mentioned in Anno's post?? Someone help, Im tired of this contam!! Thanks!!!

Vis


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Offlinevatoloco
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: Seuss]
    #604819 - 04/11/02 12:24 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: vatoloco]
    #606321 - 04/12/02 01:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

> does peroxidated agar count as an antibiotical agar or are you talking about an entirely different animal?

I am talking about a different animal. You can get antibiotical agar (mea) from fungi perfect. It really helps if you have contaminated spores. I have never tried peroixdated agar, so I can't make any statement for or against it.

With wet spot, a single bacteria can reproduce once every twenty minutes. You can have multi-billion organisms within a day from a single viable endospore.

> do I risk overcooking the rye this way

My friend used to worry about the rye overcooking or splitting open. When my friend quit worrying and started cooking the hell out of it is about the same time my friend's contamination problems went away. Of course my friend tried lots of things at once, so she doesn't know what really made the difference.
A few other things I just thought of that might help... wear latex/vinyl gloves while working. Be sure to run some alcohol over the gloves after you put them on. Spay lysol around in your grow room a few minutes before you start working. Try not to move around too much... most contaminations are near the ground due to gravity. Work on a counter off of the floor.

Wet spot forms endospores when things go badly for the bacteria. Endospores are like seeds that hangout inside the dead bacteria cellbody. Once the cellbody is rehydrated with water, the endospore germinates forming a new bacterium. For wet spot (at least the stuff my friend worked with) the endospores look like a white krusty film (macroscopic)...almost like soap scum. This film is actually billions upon billions of endorspores. A 10% bleach solution works wonders cleaning this crap up. When wet, the stuff is very sticky, almost like mucus (snot).


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Invisibledurban_poison
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: vatoloco]
    #607283 - 04/13/02 02:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I got rid of this problem by getting rid of rye. Rye just doesnt hold moisture very good causing water spots which then lead to bacterial contam. I have found wheat much more effective. Here are some results from wheat Im sure this varies from crop to crop or farmer to farmer.

Hard spring wheat- fair a few broken curnel which leds to water spots cause broken curnels cant hold moisture good. But works most of the time none the less.

Red winter wheat- lots of broken curnels, and curnels dont hold moisture well. Tricky as rye but works if you master the moisture content.

Soft pastry wheat-Few to no borken curnels, and holds moisture great and if there is too much curnels seem to absorb excess. Smells like cinnamon while steeping. Best grain I have tried yet.

All info is false I obviously have no idea what Im talking about, wait where am I again?


Edited by durban_poison (04/13/02 02:49 PM)


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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: durban_poison]
    #607329 - 04/13/02 03:53 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks durban, I didn't want to be the only one with that advice:

Problems with rye? Get rid of rye!

The smaller grain size and texture of millet make it more forgiving; more easily sterilized, provide more inoculation points when shaking and inoculating bulk sub's.

Have not tried wheat, though I have some hanging around;
Whatever works; I've used nothing but millet after a brief rye fiasco. Once you get the water content down, it's pretty well fool-proof. Every mushroom species I've tried has thrived on it.


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Invisibledurban_poison
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: Suntzu]
    #607346 - 04/13/02 04:20 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

just curious but what is your millet method? well I guess what I mean to say is how do you prevent it from sticking and kernals from exploding? Pre-soak or steep?


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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: durban_poison]
    #607390 - 04/13/02 05:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It goes something like this, easily modified depending on the equipment at hand; load a PC load worth of birdseed into a big mixing bowl, flood with tap water. Stir, notice the sunflower seeds float; Scoop the surface a bit, just to reduce the number of sunflower seeds, no need to get them all. Pour the grain slurry from the mixing bowl into a fine-mesh strainer, mine only holds a couple cups at a time. When the strainer is nearly full, I run tap water over this, giving the grain a second rinse. The rinsed grain is put into another mixing bowl. This is repeated until all the grain is thoroughly rinsed. A pinch [?1/4 tsp?] of granulated gypsum is added to the empty jars, though you can get away without it.
Then the jars are loaded with an approximate amount of seed, about half way full. Water/dung tea/whatever is added to this SLOWLY, knocking the jars a couple times along the way until the water reaches this level:



**actually, this is an older drawing; To be on the safe side, go just UNDER the level in the above diagram.

It's important to shake/knock the jars once or twice as the liquid is added, or else it's very easy to add too much.
PC for 1 hr/15 PSI, making sure to build up a good head of steam before closing the vent. 2 hr PC'ing invariably gives too many burst grain, 1 hr seems just fine.
Also, a filter disk-type system is almost imperative with any sort of grain spawn; If you don't have this, make sure you cool the pressure cooker and jars in a CLEAN environment. [good idea regardless].



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Invisibledurban_poison
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: Suntzu]
    #607528 - 04/13/02 09:27 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

sun tzu so you have experienced contams from cooling your jars outside the pressure cooker? Maybe thats where that green keeps coming from. With the filter disks can you cool them outside of the jar? I might need some disk.


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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: durban_poison]
    #607557 - 04/13/02 10:14 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Green [assuming mold here] is as likely to come from the grain itself as the air, instruments, etc. Tough to pinpoint. First though, you really should cool your jars while still in the cooker, filters or not. I think most people do this, and you can furthur help things out by wrapping an alcohol and/or bleach-soaked rag/paper towel around the vent. Air only goes back into the pressure cooker after the hissing stops and the unit continues to cool; And as the PC is sucking in air, your jars are also sucking in air as THEY cool. Fun little PV-nRT exercise.
So that's duct tape fix #1, number two is some kind of filtration system; I recommend the plastic autoclaveable lids and filter disks [can only speak for FP's, excellent]. They're nice and are effectively reusable for a very long time. Polyfill is going to be cheaper, seems to be just as effective. If you really want to go ghetto, start cooling your jars in the PC with a wrap over the vent and use the lids you have with two or three coffee filters. Make sure to punch small holes in the lids [coffee filter paper is likely going to allow more evaporation] and screw them on tight. Whatever route you go, I bet it'll work out next time, good luck.

--Sorry to go a little off the main topic


Edited by Suntzu (04/13/02 10:17 PM)


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Offlinevatoloco
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: durban_poison]
    #608969 - 04/15/02 01:09 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)



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Offlinevatoloco
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Post deleted by MOE THE MAD SCIENTIST [Re: vatoloco]
    #615601 - 04/22/02 03:52 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: vatoloco]
    #616182 - 04/23/02 11:02 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

> I'm ditching rye and moving to soft wheat berries.

It is good that you found a solution that works for you! One thing to keep in mind is that different bags of grain have different contamination loads. Your problem might not have been with rye berries in general, but the specific bag of rye berries that you were working with. If this is the case, you might run into the same problem later with othe types of grains. Just something to keep in mind in case you run into problems down the road.


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Invisibledurban_poison
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: vatoloco]
    #616369 - 04/23/02 02:44 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Also try rinsing your grain with H2O2 after steeping before jaring. I do believe this puts odds more in your favor also.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: Suntzu]
    #616733 - 04/23/02 09:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

>Fun little PV-nRT exercise.

Actually, the ideal gas law doesn?t quite apply in this case.
When the jars are boiling, nearly all of the air in the jars and the pot is displaced by steam.
When the steam condenses, its volume goes back to app.1/1000 of the steam volume. Therefore (more or less) as much air is sucked in as is the free volume in the jar.


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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: Anno]
    #617638 - 04/24/02 07:50 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Hang on, I have to think about that a second. 

You're saying MORE air is sucked in than would be estimated by the ideal gas law.  Ah yes, phase change. . .
I do believe you nailed that one, and it becomes even more important to cool your jars cleanly and/or with a good filtration system as essentially the entire INSIDE of the jar gets filled with outside air.

Outgeeked again!  :wink:   


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: rye jars, contamination, wet spot [Re: Suntzu]
    #619309 - 04/26/02 11:46 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

> and it becomes even more important to cool your jars cleanly

It is best to allow them to cool in a positive pressure flowhood. I have read a lot of posts where people recommend leaving the jars in the PC to cool down, but this is not a good idea. The PC helps hold the temps up where bacteria love to grow for a longer period. By the time all the steam inside the jars condenses back to water, most of the air in the PC has already been replaced with outside air because the PC cools faster than the jars. Also, if there is already something bad growing in the jars that wasn't killed during cooking, the 'PC incubator' just gives it that much longer to grow before innoculation.


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