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solemntruth
Solemntruth


Registered: 06/07/06
Posts: 27
Loc: TN USA
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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Warren Jeffs
#6021473 - 09/02/06 05:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Can Public Minister Warren Jeffs be legally prosecuted in State Court for charges that constitute heresy against Christianity?
Heresy
Heresy, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, is a "theological or religious opinion or doctrine maintained in opposition, or held to be contrary, to the Catholic or Orthodox doctrine of the Christian Church.
Polygamy
The term polygamy is used in related ways in social anthropology and sociobiology and sociology. In social anthropology, polygamy is the practice of marriage to more than one spouse simultaneously (as opposed to monogamy where each person has only one spouse at a time).
Religious Persecution
Religious persecution is the persecution of individuals within a group in the struggle to maintain their religious identity.
Salem Witch Trial
The Salem witch trials, which began in 1692, resulted in a number of convictions and executions for witchcraft in both Salem Village and Salem Town Massachusetts. It was the result of factional infighting and Puritan witch hysteria which lead to the death of 20 people and the imprisonment of scores more.
Quote:
United States Constitution
Article III Section 2
In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Votes accepted from (09/02/06 12:00 PM) to (11/02/06 05:40 AM) You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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?
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 30 days
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Re: Warren Jeffs [Re: Basilides]
#6021618 - 09/02/06 08:11 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Um, yeah, I think he is facing charges that he violated United States law, regardless of what constitutes heresy in some religion.
I think you should add an option on that poll that states "I have no clue what you are talking about.". Perhaps the question should read "Should Warren Jeffs be legally prosecuted in State Court on charges that he has violated law", in which case, I would probably select "yes". 
Not sure why you are attempting to inject other issues into it.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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You know, while I usually appreciate it when people provide links, they don't need to be in every other word.
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Dexter_Morgan
Towlie's Mentor



Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 6,666
Loc: higher than you
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I started a Warren Jeffs thread in another forum, but i like this one better, and my statements were more based on Laws than religion, so I'm posting my 'highlights'
Quote:
ShroomDr said: Well, Ive been reading up on them.
Pretty interesting read, even though i do not believe anything they say. the regular LDS/Mormon church gives me the creeps, but Warren Jeffs leads the 'Fundimentalist' of the group. Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Well Jeffs, the only one who is allowed to perform mariages, is probably going to jail for a long time. So I wonder what the FLDS will do? Jail Break? The FLDS communities are so cut off from the rest of the world that a Birth defect is plaguing children in FLDS towns
Where do these people go, and what will they do?
I don't share there beliefs, but the US gov't (state of UTAH, apointed executor) is going to completely blow up there communal lifestyle. How do you tell 8000 people that there beliefs are wrong, and we are throwing your 'Prophet, Seer and Revelator' in jail for his 'religous' actions. CAn you say waco v2.0?
Quote:
ShroomDr said: Most FLDS members do not own there homes. The church does. They can't get married, because there one and only minister will be in jail for a long time. So no marriage, no knowledge of what will happen to your homes, and most of the jobs in the community are businesses owned by the FLDS.
I see this case as a battle of 'Statutory Rape vs. Religion'. Warren Jeffs is marring underage girls to older men. The FLDS does not believe there is such a thing as statutory rape. Marriage does not necessary mean sex. women can be mmarried to more than one man, but sharing women sexually is not accepted. So there must be marriages without sex. They believe in keeping tight knit communities. This makes it harder for a youth to leave a community.
I'm not saying that no underage girl has felt pressured or forced to have sex with husband. The Govt has at least one girl (whose in witness protection now) who will testify against Warren Jeffs.
But in this country you are free to CHOOSE your religious beliefs. You choose your beliefs. I keep seeing news agencies saying how these young girls will need 'counseling for years' to 'de-program' them. The government should be providing options to these youths while in there communities. Forcing knowledge of other peoples beliefs. Beliefs of non polygamyst, options to leave the community, OPTIONS! Knowledge of the outside working of 'the real world'.
Give these teenage brides options. If all they every knew was getting married at 13 14 15, why would they think anything else? instead, we will force convert them (hows 'forced conversion' working around the globe? Historically & Currently). Tell them they were brainwashed and there entire lives have been based on 'lewd'(our definition, not theirs) actions. {This whole paragraph is a analogy of terrorism, if you ask me, UBL is trying to 'covert or destroy' the west}
The majority of people lose there virginity before 18. Making the act of sex illegal. The majority of peoples first sexual experience was illegal, and GREAT So throwing Jeffs in jail for 'accomplice to statutory rape' is weak.
They are ripping apart his accounting practices though, and i am sure they will get it all to stick to the wall.
Quote:
ShroomDr said: I would argue, and again, i do not believe in there religion, prophet, or polygamy, that there religion pre-dates the states laws. They did not 'start converting beliefs' they had beliefs that the state later deemed 'illegal actions'.
I'm not religious, I don't think religion has the same benefit that it once had in human history, At one time religion was the only way to learn to read, and gain an education. But I do believe in the Constitution, and the SEPERATION of church and state. I think that is a two way street.
Keep religion out of Government, and government out of religion.
The root of my problem with this arrest is that they let Warren's brother go without charges. He too is a polygamist, but no charges. Jeff's and his followers BELIEVE Jeffs is the only prophet that god allows to marry people. He is actually in jail for arranging marriages, but according to his religion, he has to, he is the only one allowed! Government should be in there community, not in there religion. If your going to bust polygamist, bust them all, don't let them walk out of the police station. At the very least, they will bust Jeffs for skimming off the top of the FLDS, a real crime. But how well do you think Al Sharpton's, Jesse Jackson's, Pat Roberson's 'businesses/charities' are run?
But i guess they have more followers
-------------------- Uncleluke, getting his assbeat, then he tries to delete it http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6355469#Post6355469 Tomato-Faced Banez http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5933438#Post5933438 Dexter's Thesaurus beer = guinness smoke = vaporize pubers = reasons to be pro-choice
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GabbaDj
BTH


Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,679
Loc: By The Lake
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What I want to know is why we are fighting wars in foreign lands while "freedom" like this continues to go on here in America..
Warren Jeffs is a sick pedophile pervert and should wear a pink jump suit and be anal raped daily.
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
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GabbaDj
BTH


Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,679
Loc: By The Lake
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Quote:
Warren Jeffs's official title in the FLDS Church is "President and Prophet, Seer and Revelator." He also holds the title of "President of the Priesthood." He was ordained to these positions in the Church after Rulon Jeffs, the previous Prophet and Warren Jeffs's father, died on September 8, 2002. There had been no official process for replacing Rulon as the President (Rulon had thought he would live until the Second Coming). However, Warren had been ordained as "First Counselor" to his father. Upon his father's death, he appointed himself the new leader of the church.[1] [2] One of his first statements after his father's death was directed at high ranking officials in the church: "I won't say much, but I will say this—hands off my father's wives." Then addressing the recent widows, he said, "You women will live as if father is still alive and in the next room." Within a week, Warren had married all but two of his father's several dozen wives. [3] After this, he continued to wed himself to many more women.
Sick Fuck..
This story is just too sci fi to be true...
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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FLDS are just extreme versions of Amish, Quaker, Mennonite isolationism etc. and they are not arming themselves for any kind of apocalyptic stand off with the feds like the Branch Davidians did. So I doubt Waco 2.0 is coming. When they start busting out the robes and weapons arsenals, then it's time to get worried.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 30 days
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Re: Warren Jeffs [Re: Basilides]
#6024394 - 09/03/06 08:45 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Basilides said: When they start busting out the robes and weapons arsenals, then it's time to get worried.
Why would it be time to be worried?
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Dexter_Morgan
Towlie's Mentor



Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 6,666
Loc: higher than you
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Re: Warren Jeffs [Re: Basilides]
#6026380 - 09/03/06 10:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Basilides said: FLDS are just extreme versions of Amish, Quaker, Mennonite isolationism etc. and they are not arming themselves for any kind of apocalyptic stand off with the feds like the Branch Davidians did. So I doubt Waco 2.0 is coming. When they start busting out the robes and weapons arsenals, then it's time to get worried.
Well the only reason I said this, is if my 'Messiah' was in a Jail called 'Purgatory'(I'm serious) 30 minutes down the road from 8000 of my fellow believers, I would be trying to rescue. They do not seem militant or violent though, just pointing out the opportuitity.
They are a huge population at odds with our US government though. the Colorado City & Hilldale (<--I think) population is estimated at 6000-12000, and there are more communities in more than a few states.
That is a lot of people to tell 'your Prophet is acting illegal, we are throwing him in jail, your religious beliefs are illegal, but we are only going to arrest your prophet (they let Warren's brother walk).'
-------------------- Uncleluke, getting his assbeat, then he tries to delete it http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6355469#Post6355469 Tomato-Faced Banez http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5933438#Post5933438 Dexter's Thesaurus beer = guinness smoke = vaporize pubers = reasons to be pro-choice
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Hank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
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Good point, I am conflicted on this situation. While I don't feel what they are doing, is right, I do feel it is their right. Unfortunately there are children involved. Does anyone know the age of the youngest married off?
Also, up until recently, girls would get married at much younger ages, due to shorter life span, infant mortality rates, etc. Who is to say it is now unacceptable by willing parties?
I still do not agree with it based on my morals, but what right is it of mine to deny others of their religion?
Also, another note, while the authorities are targeting the act of polygamy, there are many people who also have multiple children, with multiple partners. Just because they don't get married it is acceptable, which is not right either.
-------------------- Capliberty: "I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "
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Dexter_Morgan
Towlie's Mentor



Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 6,666
Loc: higher than you
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Re: Warren Jeffs [Re: Hank, FTW]
#6026592 - 09/04/06 12:19 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- Uncleluke, getting his assbeat, then he tries to delete it http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6355469#Post6355469 Tomato-Faced Banez http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5933438#Post5933438 Dexter's Thesaurus beer = guinness smoke = vaporize pubers = reasons to be pro-choice
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phi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Re: Warren Jeffs [Re: Basilides]
#6028467 - 09/04/06 02:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
FLDS are just extreme versions of Amish, Quaker, Mennonite isolationism etc.
This is a bit irrelavent, but since I was raised a Quaker I feel obliged to point out that Quakerism is a more-or-less mainstream Christian sect, in which professionals with normal jobs join in worship once a week.
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 21 days
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how do you figure the charges against him constitute charges of heresy?
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Dexter_Morgan
Towlie's Mentor



Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 6,666
Loc: higher than you
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Re: Warren Jeffs [Re: wilshire]
#6030158 - 09/04/06 11:28 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Do Quakers marry younger than 18? Im pretty sure some Amish or Mennonite do.
-------------------- Uncleluke, getting his assbeat, then he tries to delete it http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6355469#Post6355469 Tomato-Faced Banez http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5933438#Post5933438 Dexter's Thesaurus beer = guinness smoke = vaporize pubers = reasons to be pro-choice
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phi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Quakers do not marry earlier than any other mainstream religious groups.
Neither do Mennonites: http://www.gameo.org/index.asp?content=http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/M376ME.html
Quote:
The median age at first marriage of the 1972 American Mennonite church members was 23.1 years for men and 21.6 years for women; for Canadian Mennonites it was 24.3 and 22.7 years. The national medians in 1971 were 23.1 and 20.9 for the population of United States, and 24.9 and 22.1 for Canadians.
Today, people tend to wait a little longer to get married.
The Amish marry slightly younger on average, I believe, but still normal by our standards.
Edit: Mennonites (the Amish and Mennonites are both branches of the Anabaptists) and Quakers(officially named Religious Soc. of Freinds) are two of the three traditional Peace Churches - they both share a testimony of pacifism. They also both put a strong emphasis on simplicity. I can't see what either church has in common with Mormons (look at their church in SLC - not much simplicity there), much less one of their many crazy offshoots. Quakers and Mennonites in the US are typically wealthy and well educated people who oppose war and direct a significant portion of their wealth and energy into trying to make the world a more loving and spiritual place - it is highly insulting to compare such people to some perverted egomaniac.
Edited by phi1618 (09/05/06 09:41 AM)
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