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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Rumsfeld is a douchebag
    #6029147 - 09/04/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Did anyone hear his comments last week? Didnt see anything outright on this board about it. He likened war critics to appeasers of Hitler.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: Buddha5254]
    #6029283 - 09/04/06 07:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Actually, he did no such thing, which is probably why there has been no mention of it on the forum till now.



Phred


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: Phred]
    #6029381 - 09/04/06 07:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SALT LAKE CITY, Utah - Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Tuesday the world faces "a new type of fascism" and warned against repeating the pre-World War II mistake of appeasement.

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Rumsfeld alluded to critics of the Bush administration's war policies in terms associated with the failure to stop Nazism in the 1930s, "a time when a certain amount of cynicism and moral confusion set in among the Western democracies."

Without explicitly citing Bush critics at home or abroad, he said "it is apparent that many have still not learned history's lessons." Aides to Rumsfeld said later he was not accusing the administration's critics of trying to appease the terrorists but was cautioning against a repeat of errors made in earlier eras.

Speaking to several thousand veterans at the American Legion's national convention, Rumsfeld said that as fascism and Nazism took hold in Europe, those who warned of a coming crisis were ridiculed or ignored. He quoted Winston Churchill as observing that trying to accommodate Hitler was "a bit like feeding a crocodile, hoping it would eat you last."

"I recount this history because once again we face similar challenges in efforts to confront the rising threat of a new type of fascism," he said.

"Can we truly afford to believe that somehow, some way, vicious extremists can be appeased?" he asked.

"Can we truly afford to return to the destructive view that America — not the enemy — is the real source of the world's troubles?"

Rumsfeld spoke to the American Legion as part of a coordinated White House strategy, before the fifth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, to take the offensive against administration critics at a time of doubt about the future of Iraq and growing calls to withdraw U.S. troops.

Addressing the same audience later Tuesday, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the Bush administration is countering extremism with hope and democracy, and that history will bear out that strategy.

"If we quit before the job is done, the cost of failure will be severe, indeed immeasurable," Rice said.

"If we abandon the Iraqi people before their government is strong enough to secure the country, we will show reformers across the region that America cannot be trusted to keep its word," she added.

Bush was scheduled to speak here later in the week.

Rumsfeld recalled a string of recent terrorist attacks, from 9/11 to deadly bombings in Bali, London and Madrid, and said it should be obvious to anyone that terrorists must be confronted, not appeased.

"But some seem not to have learned history's lessons," he said, adding that part of the problem is that the American news media have tended to emphasize the negative rather than the positive.

He said, for example, that more media attention was given to U.S. soldiers' abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib than to the fact that Sgt. 1st Class Paul Ray Smith received the Medal of Honor.

He did acknowledge that the U.S. military has its own "bad actors — the ones who dominate the headlines today — who don't live up to the standards of the oath and of our country." But he added that they are a small percentage of the hundreds of thousands of troops who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan.

"Those who know the truth need to speak out against these kinds of myths and lies and distortions being told about our troops and about our country," he said.

On Monday, Vice President Dick Cheney and Rumsfeld made separate addresses to the national convention of the Veterans of Foreign Wars in Reno, Nev.

Rumsfeld made similar arguments in Reno about doubters of the administration's approach to fighting terrorism, saying too many in this country want to "blame America first" and ignore the enemy.

Rumsfeld's remarks ignited angry rebukes from Democrats.

"It's a political rant to cover up his incompetence," said Sen. Jack Reed (news, bio, voting record), D-R.I., a former Army officer and member of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

Reed said he took particular exception to the implication that critics of Pentagon policies are unpatriotic, citing "scores of patriotic Americans of both parties who are highly critical of his handling of the Department of Defense."

Rep. John Murtha (news, bio, voting record), the hawkish Pennsylvania Democrat who voted in favor of the war but recently called for troops to withdraw, said in a statement: "It's interesting to me that they generalize the support for the war. They're not realistic with the fact that there's no progress."

Sen. Christopher Dodd (news, bio, voting record), D-Conn., chimed in that Rumsfeld's remarks were trying to "shoot the messenger" rather than examine failed policy.




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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: Phred]
    #6029507 - 09/04/06 08:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Actually, he did no such thing..




Who was he referring to if not current war critics?


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: zorbman]
    #6029757 - 09/04/06 09:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Read what he says. He's not referring to anyone. He's asking a rhetorical questions.

"Can we afford to....?"

...when the answer is clearly, "No, we cannot."

If you're interested, here's the transcript of the entire speech. I'd be very interested to see someone cut and paste the part where he "likened war critics to appeasers of Hitler," because I admit that despite having read it through several times, I missed that part.

http://www.defenselink.mil/Speeches/Speech.aspx?SpeechID=1033




Phred


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Edited by Phred (09/04/06 09:34 PM)

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: Phred]
    #6029990 - 09/04/06 10:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Seems to me he's asking it as a rhetorical question because he wouldn't like the answer.

And who could blame him with the war going so poorly under his leadership?

He's a cagey old bird though.
He'd be a great success in many fields.

Just not as Secretary of Defense in wartime.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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InvisibleDexter_Morgan
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Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: zorbman]
    #6030178 - 09/04/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I like when he asks a question, and then answers himself.
Like dictating a bad autobiography.
Quote:

Donald Rumsfeld said:
Is the war in Iraq going all roses? No; Are we making progress? Yes, Is it easier to deflect your questions later, when i ask myself these nonsensical bland questions, that I can just reference later when you ask me a difficult question, YES.




Quote:

Drew Rosenhaus ALSO said:
Next Question




They even have poor Laura Bush interviewing herself now. Letterman made fun of her last week.


--------------------
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6355469#Post6355469
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5933438#Post5933438
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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: Dexter_Morgan]
    #6030380 - 09/05/06 02:10 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What is he insinuating Phred? I dont like being cast as a fascist nazi appeaser by a member of my government, just because I disagree with absolutely flawed, failed, and dangerous policies. This was his speech for the VFW in Utah somewhere. Did anyone see Keith Olbermanns response? I heard it on the radio replayed... brialliant. But I guess it is just a creation of the all-powerful liberal media.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: Phred]
    #6030670 - 09/05/06 09:10 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Read what he says. He's not referring to anyone. He's asking a rhetorical questions.

"Can we afford to....?"

...when the answer is clearly, "No, we cannot."

If you're interested, here's the transcript of the entire speech. I'd be very interested to see someone cut and paste the part where he "likened war critics to appeasers of Hitler," because I admit that despite having read it through several times, I missed that part.

http://www.defenselink.mil/Speeches/Speech.aspx?SpeechID=1033




Phred




ha
are you kidding me?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: Buddha5254]
    #6030938 - 09/05/06 11:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What is he insinuating Phred?




He's stating that sitting back and hoping for the best is not an option. It didn't work in the Thirties and it won't work now.

Quote:

I dont like being cast as a fascist nazi appeaser by a member of my government...




Then what's your beef with Rumsfeld's speech? He didn't cast you -- or anyone -- as a fascist nazi appeaser.

Quote:

Did anyone see Keith Olbermanns response? I heard it on the radio replayed... brialliant.




Since I don't have a TV, no I didn't see it. But I have read the transcripts of Olbermann's statements. As he usually does, Olbermann completely misrepresented what Rumsfeld actually said. That might have worked forty years ago when if you missed a live speech you had to accept the word of partisan hacks "telling" you what had been said. It certainly doesn't work today with transcripts of pretty near every speech made readily available on the Web. Olbermann flat out misrepresented what Rumsfeld said -- as anyone who takes the time to read Rumsfeld's transcript can easily determine -- then ripped his own straw dog construction apart. Big whoop. Any fool can do that.


Phred


--------------------

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: Vvellum]
    #6030949 - 09/05/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

bi0 writes:

Quote:

ha
are you kidding me?




No, I'm not kidding you.

I take it by your response you think you have discovered a part of Rumsfeld's speech where he "likened war critics to appeasers of Hitler," then. Don't be shy... cut and paste it for us here and make me eat crow.



Phred


--------------------

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OfflineCapless
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Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: Phred]
    #6030982 - 09/05/06 11:42 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't see how anybody can support the current administration. Some of us don't tollarate lying. Some of us don't tollarate injustice. Some of us realize that they are trampling over all the values this country was built on... Not too much longer my friends.


--------------------
http://www.toolband.com/
"... This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality.
Embrace this moment. Remember, We are eternal.
all this pain is an illusion...."

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: Capless]
    #6031052 - 09/05/06 12:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I don't see how anybody can support the current administration.




Who said anything about "supporting" the current administration? All I did was point out the obvious -- that Rumsfeld did not in his speech liken war critics to appeasers of Hitler.

There are certainly enough things to criticize about this administration which have actually happened. So many things, in fact, that there's no need at all to make stuff up then end up looking foolish when one gets caught at it.

Quote:

Some of us don't tollarate lying.




So you're not a fan of Keith Olbermann either. Good for you.



Phred


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: Capless]
    #6031134 - 09/05/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think it is pretty clear that he was specifically implying the connection of critics of his handling of the war as being enablers of Nazism. Did he specifically state the connection in the exact words? Obviously not, he is a politician, after all. :smirk:

The fact that he did not assert in precise wording that "if you criticize the war, you are a Nazi appeaser" does not, in any way, negate the fact that it was being alluded to. I think the phrase goes "Read between the lines". :wink: it is not as though he simply mentioned it out of the blue - he was specifically reacting to pressure from criticizers of the war and its management.

It is actually sort of amusing, "We created an imaginary enemy, engaged in a war, and now if you question that war you are appeasing the enemy". Very reasonable. :grin:

Because, as I think we all know, a war on terrorism is unsubstantiated silliness. :lol: There is no credible threat to American security that could simply be neutralized by tighter security in public transportation situations and information dragnets by intelligence agencies. Obviously, these are being implemented, but it is completely unnecessary to do so with references to ideaological war and threat of a new kind of fascism.

Its another one of those situations in which one must read between the lines. Why is this administration blathering on about this bullshit? They are trying to pull one over on us, and I wonder if it will work. The media certainly isn't too open-minded - went to vote on a live poll that asked how much progress we have made in the war on terrorism, and the only options were a lot, some, or none. Certainly no "I am sirtokesalot", and definitely not "none of the above, as the war on terrorism is a fallacy". :smirk: :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: Phred]
    #6034979 - 09/06/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
bi0 writes:

Quote:

ha
are you kidding me?




No, I'm not kidding you.

I take it by your response you think you have discovered a part of Rumsfeld's speech where he "likened war critics to appeasers of Hitler," then. Don't be shy... cut and paste it for us here and make me eat crow.



Phred




no, I think your attorney-esque games are once again so painfully obvious that it is hilarious. you sure can argue any point no matter how redicious.

quote from Donnie's speech:

Quote:

That year -- 1919 -- turned out to be one of the pivotal junctures in modern history with the signing of the Treaty of Versailles, the creation of the League of Nations, a treaty and an organization intended to make future wars unnecessary and obsolete. Indeed, 1919 was the beginning of a period where, over time, a very different set of views would come to dominate public discourse and thinking in the West.

Over the next decades, a sentiment took root that contended that if only the growing threats that had begun to emerge in Europe and Asia could be accommodated, then the carnage and the destruction of then-recent memory of World War I could be avoided.

It was a time when a certain amount of cynicism and moral confusion set in among Western democracies. When those who warned about a coming crisis, the rise of fascism and nazism, they were ridiculed or ignored. Indeed, in the decades before World War II, a great many argued that the fascist threat was exaggerated or that it was someone else's problem. Some nations tried to negotiate a separate peace, even as the enemy made its deadly ambitions crystal clear. It was, as Winston Churchill observed, a bit like feeding a crocodile, hoping it would eat you last.

There was a strange innocence about the world. Someone recently recalled one U.S. senator's reaction in September of 1939 upon hearing that Hitler had invaded Poland to start World War II. He exclaimed:

“Lord, if only I had talked to Hitler, all of this might have been avoided!”

I recount that history because once again we face similar challenges in efforts to confront the rising threat of a new type of fascism. Today -- another enemy, a different kind of enemy -- has made clear its intentions with attacks in places like New York and Washington, D.C., Bali, London, Madrid, Moscow and so many other places. But some seem not to have learned history's lessons.





So, basically, he is saying those who discredited and ignored the rise of Nazism were wrong. They were appeasers. Then he says that America and the West are facing a similiar enemy. He then the finishes with But some seem not to have learned history's lessons, meaning those who oppose the war in Iraq and disagree with the handling of the Terror War are making the same mistake that those in the 1930s did. How is this not likening such people to "Nazi appeasers"? Seems clear as day to anyone with the cognitive ability to analyse and comprehend.

Spin away fred.

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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Registered: 04/22/00
Posts: 532
Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: Vvellum]
    #6035020 - 09/06/06 12:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

thank you bio. I am just too lazy to cut and paste and all that complicated computer stuff.

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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Rumsfeld is a douchebag [Re: Buddha5254]
    #6052881 - 09/12/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

:grin:

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