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EntheogenicPeace said:
What Ward Churchill and others are saying in regards to U.S. imperialism is reflective of the antagony the majority of the world's population feels towards America & Israel. Travel a bit and this sendiment is easy to see.

Second, he did not equate the low-level service workers in those buildings to the technocrats who were contributing architects of genocidal U.S. foreign policy. He simply stated that if Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima & Nagasaki were justified military targets (which the corporate version of American history teaches), then so too were the trade centers and the Pentagon.

"...When an aggressor force continually launches attacks from a particular base of operations, it is sound military strategy to take the flight to the enemy. Additionally, borrowing a page from U.S. foreign policy, I decided to send a message to a government that was becoming increasingly hostile, by bombing a government building and the government employees within that building who represent that government. Bombing the Murrah Federal Building was morally and strategically equivalent to the U.S. hitting a government building in Serbia, Iraq, or other nations. Based on observations of the policies of my own government, I viewed this action as an acceptable option. From this perspective what occurred in Oklahoma City was no different than what Americans rain on the heads of others all the time, and, subsequently, my mindset was and is one of clinical detachment. (The bombing of the Murrah Building was not personal no more than when Air Force, Army, Navy or Marine personnel bomb or launch cruise missiles against (foreign) government installations and their personnel." - Timothy McVeigh

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zappaisgod said:
And another one of your heroes is Timothy McVeigh??? Who's next? Ted Kuczinsky? A truly impressive list. This is why you are essentially a mute buffoon. Enjoy your utter irrelevance. You do realize you are doomed to an existence of summary dismissal, don't you?

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EntheogenicPeace said:
Neither borders nor the concept of land ownership existed in this hemisphere prior to the arrival of the genocidal slave-trader Columbus.

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I doubt that. Native American tribes frequently warred with each other over hunting grounds. Villages burnt to the ground. South American tribes commited genocide agansit each other. To propose that these evils only appeared once white man stepped foot on the contintent is preposterous.

It would be difficult to consider you a source on the history of the American contintent at that time, anyways. There is no sense in asserting bold truths when you have no grounds to base it upon.


Peace.

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Entheogenic Peace said:
One does not have to be successful in complete extermination for an effort to be genocidal in both intent and practice. Because Hitler did not killing every Jew in the world does not mean his efforts and their effects were not genocidal. The same goes for the European settlers towards indigenous Indians in the Western Hemisphere, or towards Africans during trans-Atlantic slavery. U.S. militarism in Southeast Asia also was both deliberate and systematic mass murder.

Additional examples for such murder & mayhem include: Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Colombia, Chile, Grenada, Cuba, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, Nicaragua, Panama, Yugoslavia, Zaire, East Tumor, Korea, the Philippines, and others.

Over the last century the U.S. has instigated more wars and involved int self in more conflicts around the globe than any other nation-state in history. Its military budget currently outspends the next 20 or so nations combined . It sells more arms, munitions, and military equipment than the next dozen or so nations combined. Whenever a child is maimed and murdered by land mines, cluster bombs, and other unexploded munitions, there's a good chance that "Made in America" is on the outside.

To say that America is a genocidal and imperialist empire is to put it kindly.

"The trouble is that when American dollars earn only six percent over here, they get restless and go overseas to get 100 percent. The flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag. I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to defend some lousy investment of the bankers. We should fight only for the defense of our home and the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket. There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It had its 'finger men' to point out enemies, its 'muscle men' to destroy enemies, its 'brain men' to plan war preparations and a 'Big Boss' — super nationalistic capitalism. I spent 33 years in the Marines. Most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I helped make Mexico and especially Tamiko safe for American oil interests in 1914. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenue in. I helped in the rape of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. War is a racket." - Gen. Medley D. Butler

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." - George Orwell

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Once again, WS, there is no credible evidence that Hussein is being forced to watch this episode.

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I know this, but for the sake of discussion it is interesting to assume that it did happen. For the sake of discussing the implications of an event the reality level of the event isn't important

If it happened then see my above bla, if it didn't then thats far better, but at least we had an interesting discussion out of it.

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Redstorm said:
Don't be pretentious; I was just asking a question. I'll do some reading on all of those, but none of them look too recent. Do we no longer have a policy of genocide or something?

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EntheogenicPeace said:
Timothy McVeigh... one of my heroes?!?

God, you love putting words into other people's mouths & making false assumptions.

I have no ideological connection to him whatsoever (he was associated with the "Christian Identity" movement, a white supremacist organization)

I used the quote because Timothy McVeigh was trained by the U.S. military (he was awarded a Bronze Star medal). His insight in that writing makes a chillingly profound and revealingly honest point about the detachment many Americans have when it comes to the realities & consequences of their aggression around the world.

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When Americans say they have a history of fighting the "bad guys", the "evildoers" of the world, they are incapable of feeling empathy for what they are actually doing; a mass genocide against the poor & oppressed for the purpose of creating and maintaining a favorable climate for overseas investment.

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In Vietnam instead of someone's mother or father, or husband or wife, or son or daughter being murdered, maimed, or burned by napalm, it was "communists" or "gooks"; a detached classifiction designed to dehumanize others so Americans would be accepting of such inhumane destruction.

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Please, if you are going to make false accusations, make them a little more believable next time.

"We have no honorable intentions in Vietnam. Our minimal expectation is to occupy it as an American colony and maintain social stability for our investments. This tells why American helicopters are being used against guerrillas in Colombia and Peru. Increasingly the role our nation has taken is the role of those who refuse to give up the privileges and pleasures that come from the immense profits of overseas investment." - Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

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EntheogenicPeace said:
Zappa, the fundamental worldview you espouse is that of the existing social order; a white-imperialist power structure where the death of a relatively small number of predominantly white people is a "barbaric terrorist attack", while the deaths of millions of poor people of color is "acceptable collateral damage".

You call occupation soldiers (who happen to be of white European ancestry) legitimate, but condemn resistance fighters (who happen to be darker-skinned and of Middle-eastern ancestry) defending their homeland as terrorists. Somehow, I don't think that if in 50 years the Chinese military invaded the mainland of the U.S. and installed a puppet government to give its companies control of material resources, that your position on resistance to occupation would be the same.

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If we were having this conversation 20 or so years ago, you would be (as the U.S. & Israeli governments did) legitimizing (not only in the form of recognition, but also economic and military support for) the apartheid regime of South Africa, while condemning Nelson Mandela and the African National Congress as a terrorist organization.

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You use the common fascist tactic of painting me as an extremist out of touch with reality, but in reality I'm speaking how the majority of the world feels on the general topic of U.S. imperialism. If you were to travel around the world right now and ask random people who they think the greatest threat to world peace is, what do you think their answer would be? (hint: it's not Iran).

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I conclude this post with two inspirational and provocative statements from two extraordinary people:

The first from a dear brother and comrade in the struggle:

"Conventional wisdom would have one believe that it is insane to resist this, the mightiest of all empires... But what history really shows is that today's empire is tomorrow's ashes. That nothing lasts forever, and that to not resist is to acquiesce in your own oppression. The greatest form of sanity that anyone can exercise is to resist that force that is trying to repress, oppress, and fight down the human spirit." - Mumia Abu Jamal

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The second from one the greatest human beings to ever live:

"Why does the guerrilla fighter fight? We must come to the inevitable conclusion that the guerrilla fighter is a social reformer, that he takes up arms responding to the angry protest of the people against their oppressors, and that he fights in order to change the social system that keeps all his unarmed brothers in ignominy and misery." - Ernesto "Che" Guevara

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