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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration"
    #6011011 - 08/30/06 10:34 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

All aboard the cheap labour gravy train!  :crazy2:

Business leaders seek 'unlimited immigration' from new EU states

The leaders of Britain's biggest businesses employing millions of people have called on the Government to allow unlimited immigration from Bulgaria and Romania when the two former Eastern Bloc states join the European Union next year.

They said any break in the "open door" policy that has seen hundreds of thousands of migrants from Poland and other eastern European countries come to Britain would be a major mistake. The business leaders have put their names to a statement issued by the Business for New Europe Group (BNEG), a pressure group calling for further integration.

Their support for a continued influx of workers will create a fresh headache for the Government, which is struggling to contain a political rebellion, and threatens to split the business community.

Last week, Damian Green, the shadow Immigration minister, said the Government had to learn the lesson of the "unprecedented numbers" who arrived in the UK after the last EU expansion in 2004. The Government had forecast 15,000 migrants rather than the 600,000 who have come in since 2004.

Roger Carr, the chairman of Centrica, said ministers could not pick and choose which elements of an open-market system they liked. "It is essential to harvest the upside and manage the downside on the side of market freedom not protectionism," he said.


http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/article1222597.ece


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OfflineAndy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: Alex213]
    #6011070 - 08/30/06 11:04 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

My inner bleeding heart is like "You cannot blame people for wanting a better life, come poor and hungry of the world to my house! I am making pancakes!"
But my head says
"England is an already overcrowded Island, we build houses on flood plains. We are not letting these people in because we care for them or want to offer them anything better than they have at home. We are letting these people in because they will work for nothing, driving wages for unskilled jobs down. A larger population increases the pressure on our struggling national health service and our welfare system."
It is a bad situation, I know intellectually and feel in my heart that all peoples of the world are equal. Having said that the government of a nation is elected on the basis that they will protect the interests of the people within a defined boundary. If our national health service and welfare system collapsed we would have people not being able to afford life saving operations, old people left destitute and starving. I read the Independent newspaper sometimes and there are often opinion pieces by a lady I forget her name, she uses the sensible argument that anyone who questions immigration of any kind is a racist bigot. Her evidence? she was an immigrant and now she writes in a newspaper! She is also really smart, so she knows that for you to be questioning immigration you must really hate people with brown skin. We need to have an honest debate about what these massive influxes of people will do to our essential public services. Playing the race card is just a shitty dishonest thing to do.


Edited by Andy21 (08/30/06 11:08 AM)


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OfflineAndy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: Andy21]
    #6011093 - 08/30/06 11:15 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

If however we had a Star Trek style one world government where everyone was smart and there was no such thing as money I think that would be okay. Just not in a dictatorial Alex Jones slave state kind of way.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 6 months, 2 days
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: Andy21]
    #6011126 - 08/30/06 11:40 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

> If however we had a Star Trek style one world government

The only way that will ever work is if energy is free... of course, with free energy most of the worlds problems would go away.


--------------------
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OfflineAndy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: Seuss]
    #6011144 - 08/30/06 11:50 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Free energy lets all hold hands!


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: Alex213]
    #6011526 - 08/30/06 02:06 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

You're the best Alex: From your link. The exact same article, in fact:
Quote:


Immigration: The facts

600,000 people from eastern Europe have successfully applied for the right to work in the United Kingdom over the past two years. This means that they now account for 2 per cent of the country's 30 million strong workforce

62 per cent of the new workers have come from Poland

£2.54bn is contributed to the economy annually by eastern European immigrants in the UK

0.5-1 per cent of economic growth in the United Kingdom in 2005 and 2006 has been contributed by migrants

70,000 migrant workers help with harvesting farms, according to the National Farmers Union

10 per cent of employees on Britain's building sites are from overseas - making a total labour force of up to 100,000 workers

80 per cent of new migrants are working people between the ages of 18 and 35. This offsets the tendency for the country's population to age, addressing the difficulties in providing for an ageing population. There is evidence that National Insurance contributions would have to be higher under lower migration scenarios

250,000 jobs a year are created by the UK economy. The economy continues to grow only because there is the population to carry such continued growth

31 per cent of doctors working in hospitals and general practices throughout the UK are migrants

13 per cent of nurses who are working in the UK were born abroad

12.5 cent of teaching staff working in schools across the UK are non-British

70 per cent of catering jobs in London are filled by migrant workers

13 per cent higher average wages earned by migrant workers (compared to workers who are not migrants) suggests that migrant workers are more highly skilled and more productive





So much for the cheap labor canard. Britain needs them because they are saddled with a huge youth class of Trainspotting slackers with no greater ambition than to spend their lives on the dole. Because they can.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6011571 - 08/30/06 02:19 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Oooooo.... SNAP!




Phred


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OfflineAndy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6011678 - 08/30/06 03:02 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Give me a reliable source on our Trainspotting slackers please. The dole is now called job seekers allowance and it is means tested based on NI contributions, staying on it for life is not an option.
Quote:


Key facts on immigration

• 76% of the British public favour an annual limit on immigration. [1]
Net migration into the UK has averaged 166,000 a year over the last 7 years. [2]
• The UK’s population is projected to rise by 7.2 million from 2004 to 2031 – 6.0 million (83%) of this rise is due to immigration.[3] That’s equivalent to two cities the size of Cambridge every year, or 6 cities the size of Birmingham over the 27 year period, needing to be built because of immigration.[4]
• 65,000 new homes will be required in England each year for the period 2003-26 for immigrants.[5]
• In 2004 12.0 million non-EU nationals arrived in the UK[6]. How many left? No one knows – we have no embarkation controls.
• In Inner London 57% of all births are to foreign-born mothers.[7]
• 70% of net international migration is to London. In recent years a net 100,000 migrants a year have been arriving in London and there has been a net movement of 100,000 existing residents from London to the rest of the UK.[8]
• The cost of running the Immigration and Nationality Department of the Home Office rose from £300 million in 1998-1999 to 1.9 billion in 2003-4.[9] Legal aid costs of £170m a year are additional.
• England is one of the most densely populated countries in the world. It has nearly twice the population density of Germany, 4 times that of France and 12 times that of the USA.
• Since 1997 about 376,000 asylum seekers have been refused permission to stay here but only 85,000 have been recorded as having been removed from the UK. [10]
• And those with families whose claims have failed continue to receive benefits worth an average of £15,000 a year tax free.[11]

Do migrants add to economic growth?
Yes. But they also add to population. In a speech to the Confederation of British Industry in April 2004, the Prime Minister claimed that growth would be nearly 0.5% per year less if there was no net immigration. The correct Treasury figure was 0.4% and this figure was based entirely on the fact that net immigration would add 0.4% to the working age population. This level of immigration adds 0.25% to the total population every year. So the benefit is only 0.15% per head per year – roughly equivalent to an extra £2 per week for the average family every year. This is a trivial amount compared to the extra strain involved on our infrastructure and on our society. Over a longer timescale the economic benefit is even smaller as immigrants grow older and have children.




Source Migration watch statistics


Edited by Andy21 (08/30/06 03:17 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: Andy21]
    #6012030 - 08/30/06 04:59 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Andy21 said:
Give me a reliable source on our Trainspotting slackers please. The dole is now called job seekers allowance and it is means tested based on NI contributions, staying on it for life is not an option.





From Alex's link:

"David Frost, the director general of the British Chambers of Commerce, said that the recent rise in unemployment to a six-year high was flashing a warning signal about the impact of migration of the indigenous workforce. "We have seen unemployment rise in the UK and clearly we don't want to be in a position where we are seeing migrant labour coming in and getting the jobs and supporting the great number of local people have not got jobs," he said."

Plus this:

""The migration has plugged gaps in the labour market and boosted economic growth."

Plus this:

"13 per cent higher average wages earned by migrant workers (compared to workers who are not migrants) suggests that migrant workers are more highly skilled and more productive"

Unemployment at a 6 year high, migrants filling gaps in the labor force and business paying a 13% premium for migrants. Hey, the situation may be otherwise but it sure is fun cutting Alex's nuts off with his own links.


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6014216 - 08/31/06 02:07 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Which brings me nicely onto me my next idea, the migrant exchange program.

For each hard working semi-skilled or skilled worker they send us, we send them one lazy sack of shit. Thus gaining the benefits without the strain on infrastructure, the only problem is how to sell it to those countries.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 6 months, 2 days
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: psilomonkey]
    #6014631 - 08/31/06 07:14 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

For each hard working semi-skilled or skilled worker they send us, we send them one lazy sack of shit [politician].




I touched up your quote a bit...  :wink:


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: psilomonkey]
    #6015408 - 08/31/06 03:17 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psilomonkey said:


For each hard working semi-skilled or skilled worker they send us, we send them one lawyer. Thus gaining the benefits without the strain on infrastructure, the only problem is how to sell it to those countries.




I'll play too


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6017310 - 09/01/06 03:54 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

"We have seen unemployment rise in the UK and clearly we don't want to be in a position where we are seeing migrant labour coming in and getting the jobs and supporting the great number of local people have not got jobs," he said."


Looks like I'll need to spoonfeed you through this again. Why do you think the migrants are getting the jobs rather than the indigenous population?

""The migration has plugged gaps in the labour market and boosted economic growth

Economic growth isn't the only important thing in a country. There are questions like housing a million more people, finding their children school places, giving them health care etc etc.

business paying a 13% premium for migrants

This is garbage. Wages are being kept down by the influx of migrants, not increased.

sure is fun cutting Alex's nuts off with his own links.

You could certainly do with a pair of nuts but I'm afraid you couldn't carry mine in a wheelbarrow  :laugh:


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: Alex213]
    #6018973 - 09/01/06 05:01 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
"We have seen unemployment rise in the UK and clearly we don't want to be in a position where we are seeing migrant labour coming in and getting the jobs and supporting the great number of local people have not got jobs," he said."


Looks like I'll need to spoonfeed you through this again. Why do you think the migrants are getting the jobs rather than the indigenous population?




A direct quote from your link.  Unemployment is on the rise
Quote:



""The migration has plugged gaps in the labour market and boosted economic growth


Economic growth isn't the only important thing in a country. There are questions like housing a million more people, finding their children school places, giving them health care etc etc.




The relevant part of this quote is about plugging gaps in the labor market.  You know, doing jobs Limeys won't do
Quote:



business paying a 13% premium for migrants

This is garbage. Wages are being kept down by the influx of migrants, not increased.




Well, like I said, it's YOUR link and that's what it says.
Quote:



sure is fun cutting Alex's nuts off with his own links.

You could certainly do with a pair of nuts but I'm afraid you couldn't carry mine in a wheelbarrow  :laugh:




Sorry to hear about your elephantiasis.  Your nuts must be as inflated as your head


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6019012 - 09/01/06 05:17 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

A lot if the 'skill gap' they are talking about is in the construction industry, plumbers, electricians, plasters, brickys etc..

I blame government for this, between the Thatcher and Blair governments they have managed to destroy vocational training. With the Thatcher years it was more of an image thing, very much belittling skilled construction work.

With the Blair government it has been tax and red tape. My old man was electrician, now retired. He has seen regulations and taxes make it more and more difficult for the small trader to function let alone take on an apprentice.

There are really no apprentice placements available now, its shameful.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: psilomonkey]
    #6019041 - 09/01/06 05:28 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I am a master carpenter and contractor. I never went to one single day of apprentice training in anything. I just went to work. As a nothing. I watched, learned, got given better tasks, learned more, went on my own, learned a LOT more. Just do it. Or whine about immigrants who get paid better than you. I don't give a fuck


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
Twisted brainwrong of a oneoff man mental

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 812
Loc: Airstrip One
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6019303 - 09/01/06 06:38 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Thats what most people here would call apprentice work. Learning on the job. The red tape is the problem, its just not practice its not economical for a sole trader to employ someone on a building site that is not skilled.

I do computer network engineering. I learned just about all I know on the subject on the job, after ten years experience I now earn myself a damn good wage.


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InvisibleGabbaDj
BTH
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,579
Loc: By The Lake
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: Seuss]
    #6020551 - 09/02/06 12:53 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> If however we had a Star Trek style one world government

The only way that will ever work is if energy is free... of course, with free energy most of the worlds problems would go away.





the problem with Star Trek is that they have replicators..

Nothing can be made out of thin air. EVER.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6026841 - 09/04/06 04:50 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

So you support unlimited immigration?


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InvisibleAlex213
Stranger
Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 1,839
Re: Buisness seeks "unlimited immigration" [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6030424 - 09/05/06 05:51 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I am a master carpenter and contractor. I never went to one single day of apprentice training in anything. I just went to work. As a nothing. I watched, learned, got given better tasks, learned more, went on my own, learned a LOT more. Just do it. Or whine about immigrants who get paid better than you. I don't give a fuck




Nonsense. The only reason you havn't been on welfare for the last 40 years is because immigration has been limited. Why would you have gotten your first chance to work when there are a million immigrants with more experience who would have worked twice as hard as you for a third of your salary.


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