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Invisibledownforpot
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
Close extremist schools
    #6002142 - 08/27/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

BBC NEWS
Close extremist schools - Kelly
Islamic schools that promote "isolationism" and extremism should be closed, Communities Secretary Ruth Kelly has said.

But people should not be threatened by symbols of faiths such as Islam, Mrs Kelly told the BBC.

She added the government was opposed to any form of law contrary to British civil law, such as Sharia law.

Mrs Kelly also expressed surprise at a decision to caution a football player who crossed himself during a match.

'Revolutionaries'

She said the government had to "stamp out" Muslim schools which were trying to change British society to fit Islamic values.

"They should be shut down," she said. "Different institutions are open to abuse and where we find abuse we have got to stamp it out and prevent that happening."

But she said Muslims were entitled to the same rights as Anglicans, Catholics, Hindus and Jewish groups which all had faith schools.

She said that Britons should not be scared of Muslims observing their faith.

"When I see a Muslim woman wearing a headscarf or a hijab, I don't feel threatened, I celebrate it."

Ms Kelly's comments followed the launch last week of the government's Commission on Integration and Cohesion, in which she urged a "new and honest" debate on diversity.

Ms Kelly said she did not believe the vast majority of British Muslims supported attacks on this country.

"Most Muslims would call those terrorists who would undermine the fabric of this society as not true Muslims but revolutionaries who are cowering under the cloak of Islam."

The commission, originally mooted last July in the wake of the London terror attacks, came amid growing fears of alienation, especially among young Muslims.

Ms Kelly said the government had to work with "these law-abiding Muslims people in this country who try to combat that".

She said she had met with many members of the Muslim community, including women's groups and young people as well as more traditional Islamic community leaders to deal with the threat of radicalised British Muslims.

"The bottom line is, if they are glorifying terrorism, if they are criminals, if they are breaking the law in this country then they should be arrested and dealt with appropriately.

"We've got to say that clearly and not be afraid to say it, and work with the community and the Muslim community as well."

'Valued diversity'

Ms Kelly said the government would not allow any other form of law - such as Islamic Sharia law - to be legal for family use.

"We are not going down that route. We don't think that's compatible with Britain being a tolerant, diverse society that welcomes people of different faiths."

Ms Kelly also spoke of her surprise at Scottish prosecutors' decision to caution Celtic Artur Boruc over making the Catholic sign of the Cross at a game against Rangers in February.

"This, traditionally, has been a country which has valued religious diversity - and cultural and racial diversity as well - and where there has been freedom of expression both to express religious symbols but also other cultural symbols as well," she said.

In addition to crossing himself, the player was alleged to have made gestures to the crowd at the start of the second half of the game on 12 February.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5290338.stm

Published: 2006/08/27 12:43:19 GMT

© BBC MMVI


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"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Close extremist schools [Re: downforpot]
    #6002159 - 08/27/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I have a feeling this will just embolden the extremists, and further their hatred of the west. That's what usually tends to happen when you suppress free speech.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Close extremist schools [Re: Silversoul]
    #6002214 - 08/27/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I have a feeling this will just embolden the extremists, and further their hatred of the west. That's what usually tends to happen when you suppress free speech.




funny how that works... Like the Nazi's and KKK. Best way to get rid of these group is to infliltrate them and spread rumors and misinformation.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Close extremist schools [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #6002296 - 08/27/06 04:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

And then arrest and imprison them when they make one false step. SS still seems to have difficulty with the concept that planning a criminal act is also a criminal act itself as is incitement and various other niceties.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Close extremist schools [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6002330 - 08/27/06 05:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I have no difficulty at all with that, though you seem to have a great deal of difficulty reading my mind. There is a difference between planning an attack and preaching an ideology that looks favorably on such attacks. I wouldn't have much problem with surveillance of these places, given the proper legal procedure. In fact, it's more useful to have them where we know we can find them than to have them meeting in secret.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Close extremist schools [Re: Silversoul]
    #6002490 - 08/27/06 06:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

And yet you would object to the NSA surveillance and the data mining. Inciting to riot comes to mind as an apt description of what seems to be going on in these schools


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Close extremist schools [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6002500 - 08/27/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I would object to NSA surveillance without due process. If there is sufficient reason to believe that they are, as you say, inciting riots, then there should be no trouble at all obtaining a warrant.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Close extremist schools [Re: Silversoul]
    #6002518 - 08/27/06 06:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I shouldn't imagine a search would be necessary to see what is in plain view. As to your notions of due process, they are quaint, at best, notwithstanding the moonbat's defective ruling, which has absolutely no chance of being upheld.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Close extremist schools [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6002614 - 08/27/06 07:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Do you think wiretapping without a warrant is alright?


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Close extremist schools [Re: downforpot]
    #6002651 - 08/27/06 07:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

they shouldn't be letting them in in the first place, but if they are citizens, let them have their schools.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Close extremist schools [Re: Diploid]
    #6003964 - 08/28/06 07:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> Do you think wiretapping without a warrant is alright?

Depends on what they do with the information. I don't care at all if a US spy agency spies on me. However, none of the information captured by the US spy agencies should be passed to US law enforcement, unless a search warrant had been obtained before the spying started. The only problem I have with US spying on US citizens occurs when the results of the spying are used by the US courts... at that point, it becomes both illegal and unconstitutional (in my mind).


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Invisiblequiver
freedrug
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Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 8,047
Re: Close extremist schools [Re: Seuss]
    #6004002 - 08/28/06 08:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

sounds pretty good to me seuss

here police can wire tap if you are on bail awaiting trial without a warrant

new laws were supposedly passed here giving the cops power to follow a suspect and wiretap/investigate every person he comes into contact with,thats a disgrace

also in recent news here in australia centrelink nsw(social security) has just sacked something like 100 employees for illegally accessing private information and even changing records of friends/enemies and ex's


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InvisibleHank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
Re: Close extremist schools [Re: wilshire]
    #6004244 - 08/28/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
they shouldn't be letting them in in the first place, but if they are citizens, let them have their schools.




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Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Close extremist schools [Re: Diploid]
    #6004333 - 08/28/06 11:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Do you think wiretapping without a warrant is alright?




Seuss nailed it pretty well. Let us not lose sight of what was being done here. Calls either from or to other nations were being monitored when one party was under suspicion. By any rational person's definition that would constitute an international phone call (NYTimes and ACLU by definition excluded from that on the basis of the "rational actor" paradigm). This is clearly allowed, in spite of the Michigan moron who ruled otherwise. I can't see where the ACLU had any standing to even bring the case at all, in that they were not an injured party. But enough of that. My big issue with this is best summed up by Ann Althouse in an op ed on 8/23 in the NYTimes (she does not work for the Times, she is a law professor @ U Wisconsin). She writes:

"It is a serious argument, and judges need to take it seriously. If they do not, we ought to wonder why a court gets to decide what the law is and not the president. After all, the president has a sworn duty to uphold the Constitution; he has his advisers, and they’ve concluded that the program is legal. Why should the judicial view prevail over the president’s?"

Why indeed? For all those who clamor for judges to make the decisions that elected officials should be making don't forget that there is almost no recourse to remove idiot judges. You can always vote the rascals out but a judge is forever. And anybody who thinks that this is a slam dunk case of presidiential over-reaching is a fool and utterly ignorant of the law. Althouse goes on:

"This, of course, is the most basic question in constitutional law, the one addressed in Marbury v. Madison. The public may have become so used to the notion that a judge’s word is what counts that it forgets why this is true. The judges have this constitutional power only because they operate by a judicial method that restricts them to resolving concrete controversies and requires them to interpret the relevant constitutional and statutory texts and to reason within the tradition of the case law.

This system works only if the judges suppress their personal and political willfulness and take on the momentous responsibility to embody the rule of law. They should not reach out for opportunities to make announcements of law, but handle the real cases that have been filed.

This means that the judge has a constitutional duty, under the doctrine of standing, to respond only to concretely injured plaintiffs who are suing the entity that caused their injury and for the purpose of remedying that injury. We trust the judge to say what the law is because the judge “must of necessity expound and interpret” in order to decide cases, as Chief Justice John Marshall wrote in Marbury. But Judge Taylor breezed through two of the three elements of standing doctrine — this constitutional limit on her power — in what looks like a headlong rush through a whole series of difficult legal questions to get to an outcome in her heart she knew was right."

Indeed.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/23/opinio...%2fContributors


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Close extremist schools [Re: zappaisgod]
    #6004389 - 08/28/06 11:42 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

From the op-ed:

Quote:

After all, the president has a sworn duty to uphold the Constitution; he has his advisers, and they’ve concluded that the program is legal. Why should the judicial view prevail over the president’s?"




So, the President's view of what is constitutional is infallible? By her argument, why should we even challenge what the President does? Obviously, since he has a "sworn duty to uphold the Constitution", that means everything he does jusr HAS TO BE constitutional.

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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Close extremist schools [Re: Redstorm]
    #6004399 - 08/28/06 11:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It doesn't matter anyway. Her ruling will be tossed out by the 6th Circuit Court of Appeals.



Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Close extremist schools [Re: Phred]
    #6004400 - 08/28/06 11:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

We'll see.

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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Close extremist schools [Re: Redstorm]
    #6004407 - 08/28/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No. But neither is the judiciary's. Which is why there is a higher court than this idiot, a Congress that can change the law, and a populace that can amend the Constitution and/or elect to throw the President and the Congress out on it's ear whenever it wants. I do not like unelected and unimpeachable judges who decide to make law. That is clearly what happened here which can be seen just on the basis of the incredible weakness of the decision. The only erstwhile monarch here is her highness the right stupid moonbat Anna Diggs Taylor. Really, read the whole Althouse piece, it's quite well reasoned.

Don't worry about registering to the Times, they have never bothered me in any way at all.


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Close extremist schools [Re: Seuss]
    #6004452 - 08/28/06 12:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Warrantless wiretaps are not used to spy on Terrorists or anyone planning a attack... Any law enforcement could easily get a warrant for that kind of situation. Wiretaps are used primarily for obtaining information at the benefit of government.

Say if a CIA agent is whistleblowing to a journalist then they know exactly who to fire or suspend. These wiretaps are used to harrass journalists and whistleblowers alike to harass and back down from the government who is willfully making up rules as they go along.
Terrorism is used as a excuse for the government to bypass the constiution and create more corrupt beauracracies... Letting the fox guard the henhouse.

Hayden himself said that in this country they dont need the 4th admendment to spy on people just "reasonable suspicion" Unfortunately no matter how you look at this its unconstitutional.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Close extremist schools [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #6004471 - 08/28/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Actually, it is not unconstitutional. Listening in to enemy transmissions in time of war is not unconstitutional and never has been ruled as unconstitutional by any appellate court.

Phred


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