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OfflineXanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: wilshire]
    #5996728 - 08/25/06 06:57 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
In other words, it's the stigma that's responsible for much of the harm.

This used to be true for gay people before gay relationships became widely accepted. Suicide rates among gay kids was much higher than the general kid population. The cause was societal attitudes not gay tendencies.


if there wasn't a stigma associated with a 43 year old man having sex with a 7 year old boy, it would be much less harmful to the little boy? it's the stigma, not the act, that really harms him?




If the act is essentially enjoyable and nontraumatic for the child, then yes.


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If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.


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OfflineTelepylus
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Registered: 05/23/06
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Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: Diploid]
    #5996736 - 08/25/06 06:59 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:

Humans are animals.




that's a head-scratcher, lol
but i guess i can't argue it without being overly-religious.


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OfflineXanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: Telepylus]
    #5996739 - 08/25/06 07:00 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
just my observation, but gay relationships being widely accepted has caused much more harm to our planet than when it was taboo.




Just my observation, but superstition, religion, faith, and generally any anti-empirical, anti-rational thinking has done far more harm then good.


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If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: wilshire]
    #5996740 - 08/25/06 07:01 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

there is no distinction really between beneficial and non-beneficial in nature as a whole, because nature exists without purpose. it has no goal, and so nothing can be claimed to have postive or negative impact. whether one species reproduces or doesn't, goes extinct or doesn't... these are not beneficial or non-beneficial.

i'm not flatly saying that a heterosexual sex drive is beneficial and leaving it at that. however, it is beneficial toward the goal of reproduction. i shouldn't even use the word "beneficial" there. i will say that it has a positive impact on an individual's probability to reproduce. it's not that homosexuality is somehow wrong or defective in nature as a whole. it just is.

this thread is about pedophilia, not homosexuality. i'd venture to say that homosexuality is what results when a man is "wired" with the sexual preferences of a female, or vice versa.

it's clear to see why a sex drive would result from natural selection. there is a reason for nature to select for individuals with an attraction to adult members of the opposite sex. evolution would do that.

evolution would not create individuals with sexual attraction toward children because a sexual attraction to children does not increase reproductive probability. it would actually select for the opposite - a preference for adults capable of reproduction and the ability to distinguish them from those who are not.

there is no biological cause that would result in attraction to prepubescent children. that's what i'm saying here. it's a learned behavior.


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5996759 - 08/25/06 07:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Xanthas said:
Quote:

wilshire said:
In other words, it's the stigma that's responsible for much of the harm.

This used to be true for gay people before gay relationships became widely accepted. Suicide rates among gay kids was much higher than the general kid population. The cause was societal attitudes not gay tendencies.


if there wasn't a stigma associated with a 43 year old man having sex with a 7 year old boy, it would be much less harmful to the little boy? it's the stigma, not the act, that really harms him?




If the act is essentially enjoyable and nontraumatic for the child, then yes.




see, this is where you are wrong.
there are instances where it's not traumatic for the child, at first... it could be years later before the damage presents itself as trauma.

alot of little girls want to be molested, lol, sounds funny huh?
but little girls don't really know what they want, heck, even grown women don't really know what they want half the time.

you're trying to say if a 9 yr. old girl acts as if she wants you to rub her body, it means it's okay.
and it most certainly is not okay.
maybe at the time it may seem okay, but anyone who investigates pedophilia will show you, it causes damage which might not manifest until years later. i can give you several cases of this for example if that seems ill-logical to you.
and it has nothing to do with social stigma.
it has to do with the fact that people can draw strength from healthy childhoods. healthy natural childhood development.


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OfflineXanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: Telepylus]
    #5996772 - 08/25/06 07:08 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
Quote:

Diploid said:

Humans are animals.




that's a head-scratcher, lol
but i guess i can't argue it without being overly-religious.





http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=animal&x=0&y=0

Human:

Domain: Eukarya
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Subphylum: Vertebrata
Class: Mammalia
Subclass: Placentalia
Order: Primates
Suborder: Haplorrhini
Family: Homininae
Genus: Homo
Species: H. sapiens

Indeed you cannot.
The difference between humans and most animals, from an empirical perspective, is one of degree rather then kind.


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If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.


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OfflineXanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: wilshire]
    #5996785 - 08/25/06 07:11 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
there is no biological cause that would result in attraction to prepubescent children. that's what i'm saying here. it's a learned behavior.




Homosexuality also has no evolutionary reason to exist. It's just something different in the wiring of the brain. I can only assume it's the same with pedophilia. Not every slight mutation must result in an outcome that supports the propagation of the species


--------------------
If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5996789 - 08/25/06 07:14 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

xanthas, lol- is why i said without sounding overly religious

check the dictionary for animal

2. a living being other than a human.
3. a brutish person.

i'm not an animal, you can define yourself as one if you want though, lol


--------------------

Law of Love


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: Telepylus]
    #5996806 - 08/25/06 07:19 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

i'm not an animal

Clearly, you're not a biologist either. Biologists are the people who dedicate their lives and careers to defining and studying what an 'animal' is.

You'll forgive me if I lend their rationality-based opinions more weight than I do your superstition-based ones.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineXanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: Telepylus]
    #5996808 - 08/25/06 07:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
see, this is where you are wrong.
there are instances where it's not traumatic for the child, at first... it could be years later before the damage presents itself as trauma.




Never heard of this in any literature in which there was no after-the-fact conditioning. Guide me to it, an you can.

Quote:

Telepylus said:
alot of little girls want to be molested, lol, sounds funny huh?
but little girls don't really know what they want, heck, even grown women don't really know what they want half the time.




Nobody wants to be molested. Much like one cannot rape a willing partner, by definition.

Children are more intelligent then you give them credit for. If they don't know what they want, why give them any freedom ever?

Quote:

Telepylus said:
you're trying to say if a 9 yr. old girl acts as if she wants you to rub her body, it means it's okay.
and it most certainly is not okay.
maybe at the time it may seem okay, but anyone who investigates pedophilia will show you, it causes damage which might not manifest until years later. i can give you several cases of this for example if that seems ill-logical to you.




If you can give examples of non-traumatic, consensual sex that ends with the child being damaged somehow, please do. With such evidence, you may well single-handedly convince me of the error of my thoughts.

Quote:

Telepylus said:
and it has nothing to do with social stigma.
it has to do with the fact that people can draw strength from healthy childhoods. healthy natural childhood development.




Which you get to define, right? Lots of concepts of what was healthy and natural have been overturned.


--------------------
If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.


Edited by Xanthas (08/25/06 11:22 PM)


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Offlinewilshire
free radical
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Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5996924 - 08/25/06 07:55 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Homosexuality also has no evolutionary reason to exist. It's just something different in the wiring of the brain. I can only assume it's the same with pedophilia.

the distinction being that attraction to adult men is reproductively beneficial, as long as you're a woman. it's a normal female trait. it's possible, i'd say inevitable, that some men would "accidentally" end up getting it. pedophilia is quite different.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: wilshire]
    #5996951 - 08/25/06 08:02 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

you know, if you step back from this discussion for a minute, it's actually kinda funny that we're all here taking sides as if we know something about this, when professional psychologists who spend significant parts of their careers studying this can't figure it out.

i don't know what causes pedophilia. i don't know to what degree it's heritable, caused by physiological conditions, or results from psychological problems. neither does anyone else. it's been a decent discussion. good points raised by all. i'm out of this one.


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OfflineXanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: wilshire]
    #5997467 - 08/25/06 11:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
you know, if you step back from this discussion for a minute, it's actually kinda funny that we're all here taking sides as if we know something about this, when professional psychologists who spend significant parts of their careers studying this can't figure it out.




I know something, just not a tremendous amount, relative to said professionals. Besides, debate is fun.

Quote:

wilshire said:
i don't know what causes pedophilia. i don't know to what degree it's heritable, caused by physiological conditions, or results from psychological problems. neither does anyone else. it's been a decent discussion. good points raised by all. i'm out of this one.




Have fun.


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If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: wilshire]
    #5997526 - 08/25/06 11:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
Well, population control would be the most obvious.

natural selection selects against traits that present obstacles to reproduction.



Only in cases where a larger population is beneficial. When populations become unsustainable, then natural selection selects for ways to thin out the herd.


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OfflineXanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5997823 - 08/26/06 12:56 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

wilshire said:
Well, population control would be the most obvious.

natural selection selects against traits that present obstacles to reproduction.



Only in cases where a larger population is beneficial. When populations become unsustainable, then natural selection selects for ways to thin out the herd.




Not quite. If one has a trait that reduces your ability to breed, then that trait is less likely to be passed on, no matter if the population is large or small.

The "thinning out" of an unsustainable population is usually the starvation caused by competition for limited resources.


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If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.


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Invisiblesurf rat
pass the dutchie

Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 988
Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5997867 - 08/26/06 01:09 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

So do you guys consider Michael Jackson a pedophile?


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Draft beer, not people.:faded:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: Diploid]
    #5997905 - 08/26/06 01:23 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
For the record, before you guys start craping on me, I denounce pedophilia, but for different reasons than most people do. I think, in current society, it is very damaging to the child. But I also think that, were current society's taboos based in rationality rather than religion, that harm would be non-existent.




"Oh, come on Diploid, I won't tell anyone."


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: surf rat]
    #5998494 - 08/26/06 07:57 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

thehybridlife said:
So do you guys consider Michael Jackson a pedophile?




No.

Just an adult that lost his childhood....trying to re-live it in his old age


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Invisiblesurf rat
pass the dutchie

Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 988
Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: niteowl]
    #6000085 - 08/26/06 11:44 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

yeah he's innocent


--------------------
Draft beer, not people.:faded:


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OfflineLightLifeLove
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Registered: 08/13/06
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Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
Re: why is paedophilia so common? [Re: surf rat]
    #6000122 - 08/26/06 11:56 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

What causes it?

Cause does.

Cause makes the effect.

We are Freewill
We choose to be and desire whatever drives us

We drive us and we choose what we like and dont like

Its freewill

Thats all it is.


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