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Offlineleery11
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Registered: 06/24/05
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why law?
    #5975953 - 08/18/06 01:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

we dont' need law to tell us that:
murder
rape
property damage
theft

are HARMFUL to society! So why law...... why law enforcement? People that break laws are above law enforcement..... people that follow laws will never commit anything "illegal" so long as what remains illegal is HARMFUL.

So.... why law? Is it just symbolic? Now our society may be too lazy to systematically hunt after people who transgress its wellbeing and seek to deliberatley harm others, so in this sense having a squadron of trained people to go after such "renegades" is sensible... but why a formal legal system.

I mean I've often heard, if there were no laws, people would go around killing each other..... I've heard this in elementary school as an argument for the drug war too..... and "if there were no laws, someone would go take your stereo away while you weren't looking"

but Christ, I ask you all... what keeps you from harming others, is it the fact that harming others is illegal, or the fact that common sense and conscience (which yes not everyone has) dictates that:
1. it is wrong.
2. it is wrong because it would bring suffering upon me if it was done to me the way i do it to this person.

so why law? It is completely symbolic. I can understand having a force of "law enforcement" and "criminal investigators" to seek out those who are deviant in such a way as ACTUALLY threatening to us.

But isn't it kind of silly and stupid to have "laws"? For instance why do you follow traffic regulations? Not because of legal or illegal, but because of either FEAR of police (which means the laws are a threat to society) or because you want to keep the roads SAFE (and if you want to keep the roads safe then why "law enforcement?" because people who don't want to keep the roads safe aren't really "threats" BECAUSE they break laws, but because in so breaking the laws they do it DANGEROUSLY.)

for instance I will expound upon speeding.

let us say that there is a completely empty highway for miles, and a person transgresses the speed limit some.
Compare it to this: The highway is jampacked full of cars doing a homogenous speed so as to ensure safety (and it doesn't matter what this speed is) and one car is cutting people off, being belligerant, tailgating, swerving without signaling, trying to do way way way faster than everyone else.

This is something threatening to public safety! However, speeding in and of itself is not. The only reason we need a speed limit is so that people can flow on the highway properly without creating traffic issues, because if you are 10 seconds behind someone doing the same speed as you, and vice versa all across the nation, there will be no real safety issues conceivable.

so then, why traffic laws? If you care about safety of yourself and others, and you choose to speed, it will not be "reckless" ..... the only issue is how responsible you are at speeds higher than you are used to right?

and so you're doing 80 or 140 or whatever you do (and i'm not advocating it i can see the danger in this) and someone ahead of you is going slow, so you either slow down and match their speed, or if you can, you just simply pass them.

but then there's a bunch of traffic and no way around so you slow down and go the speed limit.

and you are always courteous about the 2 second rule, etc, etc....

you know?

the people who are a real threat on the roads are either inexperienced, handicapped, or deliberately belligerant. it has nothing in particular to do with the laws, because those who care about safety will not "deliberately" break laws in the first place. yet unfortunately these laws penalize. the cops don't look for belligerance, they look for violatoin. if you're going down a steep hill and are doing 75, even if you fully intend to slow down to 65 when the road becomes level, and just don't feel like ruining your brakes by jamming them going down a hill because NO ONE is in front of you

a cop can still punish you.

but cops should be here to protect us right? So why laws?
(I would wager you could keep calm and talk your way out of that ticket though)

So do we really need laws? Penalties, punishments, standards, yes perhaps.....

i dunno do you guys get what i mean? On the one hand we do but on the other this reliance on THE LAW is very dangerous, because the law should only extend to cover that which is harmful, not that which is lawful.

this can be tied into jury nullifcation. the fact that we as citizens should be inherently disobedient of legal authorities and defenders of what is right. so if we are as a jury to say, did this man break a law? Yes. But was the law right, or was he? and if the answer is he was right, then we vote not guilty beased upon conscience.

Because if it's just illegal vs illegal, rather than RIGHT vs WRONG your POLICE are inherently "wrong" because then peaceful safe people end up having the potential to become "lawbreakers" ... whereas if the law is transparent based upon reason (such as our RIGHT to jury nullifcation, to vote based upon conscience) but still exists when NECESSARY...... then the law is helpful.

for instance cop says "well you were speeding but that was a steep hill so i'll let you go, because i'm not obligated to be a robot that hands out fines"

last edit: i guess the most important thing i just realized is that law divorces us from conscience, we let law become our conscience, rather than letting ourselves decide whether something is right or not.

then both the lawful and the lawless fear the law (generally.)...

illegal is illegal. not wrong.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (08/18/06 02:02 PM)


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InvisibleUSMCamputee
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Re: why law? [Re: leery11]
    #5975995 - 08/18/06 02:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I guess it came to be with government. The basic outline of the U.S. Constitution works as a stand alone. However, adding all this other garbage, called laws and regulations, really ruins everything.

Yes, basic human rights should be respected and understood. Trouble is, we live in a time where car insurance, utility bills, gas prices, disease, consumerism, capitolism, authority, and a plethora of other garbage have taken a mainstay in our daily lives while personal freedom falls to the wayside.

Humans do not need this guidance for personal responsiblity. It should be natural, with those few exceptions. With no laws and real order, we need only rely on the basic human will for good towards all mankind. This unfortunately, isn't a reality, because so few humans seem to possess this key to utopia.


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OfflineGrok
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Re: why law? [Re: leery11]
    #5976000 - 08/18/06 02:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Some form of law is necessary, the world is full of shit heads. Nobody ever taught them better. The structure of our whole society is based on laws. But for the most part, I agree with you. I try not to even concern myself with laws anymore, I do whatever I feel is right. The whole system is fucking ridiculous.

Laws control people with fear. That is what I think is bad. They perpetuate a sense of personal helplessness...without the law, you wouldn't be able to make good decisions. Which is total bullshit - anyone that can think for themselves can make good decisions. I can't stand that it's illegal to, for instance, kill someone that has raped your spouse/SO/kid whatever. I would certainly not follow that law.

Laws are not REAL. They do not exist beyond our perception of them. Conscience is real and exists within all of us.

Another problem I have with law is that it allows people to behave in any manner that is determined legal. As long as its legal, you don't have to do what your conscience tells you, and you won't get in any trouble. I think many of the problems in our world can be attributed to this. And when you have a halfass system where people don't rigidly follow laws or their own conscience, you end up with...America.


--------------------
Entropy is increasing.
To send me a PM, go to my journal


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Invisiblekoppie
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Re: why law? [Re: leery11]
    #5976095 - 08/18/06 02:49 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I believe that is the argument of anarchism; that a society without rule of law not only can be as effective as current society, but can even function more smoothly than our own.

The problem I see is all the law abiding citizens. People who don't think about the consequences of their actions, but blindly follow the law to stay out of trouble.

If law is abolished, these people will start rampaging like unruly schoolchildren, basically providing "anarchy" as it is commonly thought of by non-anarchists, i.e. mob rule.

Law is a necessity because people have lived their whole lives according to laws. You could perhaps say that civilised humanity is addicted to law. It could explain the extreme reactions by some when it is suggested that laws should be abolished.


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: why law? [Re: koppie]
    #5976110 - 08/18/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

USMCamputee said:
This unfortunately, isn't a reality, because so few humans seem to possess this key to utopia.



is that only because we have been dehumanized and desensitized?

what about close knit tribes or agrarian societies? They may have had rituals or "laws" though but they weren't really "necessary" ? Or were they?
Quote:

koppie said:
The problem I see is all the law abiding citizens. People who don't think about the consequences of their actions, but blindly follow the law to stay out of trouble.

If law is abolished, these people will start rampaging like unruly schoolchildren, basically providing "anarchy" as it is commonly thought of by non-anarchists, i.e. mob rule.





really? I can't envision that at all. Do you think yuppies and white folks will start running around looting and pillaging if law is abolished? They would probably be scared and just live how they normally do.

It's the people who already act like there is anarchy, and generally try to skirt the laws, that may start mobbing about........

I mean the people I know that would be stupid if there were "anarchy" are people that already act stupid, not the blind law abiding conformists.

For instance if there were no law I'd just grow pot and perhaps speed a bit on empty roads.

Unfortunately I think the roadways may exhibit the kind of "anarchy" most people envision.

anyway, i would be curious to see a poll to see how safe ordinary citizens feel when they are in the presence of patrolling police or army. i know if you are driving and a cop is around it can most often invoke anxiety.

it's safe to say drug users can be fearful of police, but i wonder if excessive police forces, etc, make others feel fearful, vs secure?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (08/18/06 03:00 PM)


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InvisibleUSMCamputee
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Re: why law? [Re: leery11]
    #5976146 - 08/18/06 03:11 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, that is part of it. It takes a multitude of dynamics to generate the problems in society as a whole, and it is too late to change it, civilization and mankind would have to start over....Damn, I love you people. I wish I knew people like you guys around where I actually reside.


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: why law? [Re: USMCamputee]
    #5976156 - 08/18/06 03:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

maybe you'd find them if you got offline? :smile: no actually that's in reference to me. i know there are people like me here but i spend all my time online.

but actually law doesn't matter as long as people don't take it seriously, it will not overstep it's bounds.

but while out walking and thinking about what i wrote i came to the conclusion, that if people let law be their moral compass, a police state and fascism is inevitable.

then it's okay as long as its legal, like mentioned... so it's okay to gas the Jews, if it's legal. If it's illegal it's wrong.

and since it's okay since it's legal, anyone who disagrees better damn well disagree subtlety, since it's wrong to disagree. not because disagreeing is wrong, but becuase disagreeing is illegal.... and things that are illegal are wrong.

I have hope though. We are smarter now that we have the internet, and tolerate less BS than previous generations would have. Yet we are still lead along by fear and its sad.

Politics is just a complete illusion, since we are powerless in the political spectrum it simply only serves to stoke our fears......
(politics meaning Iran, Iraq, boogeymen, kabooming, wars, viruses, etc)


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (08/18/06 03:16 PM)


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InvisibleUSMCamputee
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Re: why law? [Re: leery11]
    #5976209 - 08/18/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Get off the PC? lol.I have been on here alot since joining. I used to lurk here about 4 years ago.....never posted much. I am still happy to see this place is still standing, still strong. It gives me faith.

Oh, yeah, brother, it just blows all around. We are damned if we do, damned if we don't. We need change in our corrupt system. We need people serving the people. I think the U.S. Government is the most corrupt evil institution in existance, but I love the American people. This country was founded on ideals of freedom of religion, thought, lifestyle, freedom of SELF. Unfortunately, as leery already stated, people have just decided to hand themselves over for the so called "greater good" we believe we are serving by giving up our freedoms. People who exchange freedom for safety deserve neither IMHO, but with todays tools, our gov't has power it could easily exact opon any unruly group that would wish to start a "revolution". This country was built on dissent and anti-authority ideals. It is just so sad to see the courage fall to the wayside for these "comforts" we tell ourselves we need.


Edited by USMCamputee (08/18/06 03:33 PM)


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InvisibleUSMCamputee
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Re: why law? [Re: USMCamputee]
    #5976225 - 08/18/06 03:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

People are not supposed to live like this. We are supposed to build our own homes, grow our own crops, tend to our own families and villiages, and to be a good neighbor, a good parent, an honest spouse, and to try to makethe best example of living right and all the while helping your fellow man in hardship


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: why law? [Re: USMCamputee]
    #5976465 - 08/18/06 05:01 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

maybe. i am not sure the function of existing in this society. if we disregard the perhaps silly notion that we only live one life, we would have to ask the purpose of coming together amidst a technological collective.

expansion of consciousness, liberation of massive minds.... are possibilities from what i have read.

perhaps we are simply here to obtain information necessary to pick how we want the world to be, since we have access to *all* (sort of) opinions in the entire planet's history via the internet and collective information.

perhaps we are here as a lesson to learn about subtle totalitarianism and the dangers of greed/consumeristic living.

i am leaning toward the notion that we are here to bear witness to the unification of mankind under heightened consciousness.

while the living you describe would bear, i think, more collective happiness and peace, and a firm sense of "I am something" vs "What am I?" (the American question) .... and it is morally much more wholesome and valuable... it too is masked in immense suffering.

the human condition is one of non-perfection. and perhaps we are here to learn that lesson, that no matter how much we can have, we still don't have what we truely need, and what we need is to transcend.

unfortunately pragmatics would have you think we will follow our technology into the literal MATRIX and that this will not be a good thing since the people using and controlling the applicatoins of the technology are corrupt at best.

what i learn most importantly is that much of this world can be construed as beautiful and free enough as long as we abstain from a lot of what society pushes on us. this would be billboards, infomercials, tv, commercials, litter, music (not live music, and not creating music, but most of pop cultures dehumanized music which is nothing but formula and product), movies (at least 90% of them), working (working is pointless, you are to simply sustain your survival, and you can do that in many creative ways, so the only goal is to do what you love, and find a way to survive doing it..... for instance we could easily sustain ourselves being homeless if we wanted to), institutionalized education (i.e. stupidity factories. there are so many wonderful ways to learn. sad that school sucks all the desire to learn and grow and be productive right out of you! ugh! i used to be so creative and inspired to work hard and excell until around middle school.....)

so yeah if you strip away everything we have you can still live with us joyously. you just have to find people who have taken enough red pills to know that DAMN this world is CRAZY

how can you marry a girl who is a walking IPOD advertisement, takes American Idol seriously, and thinks politics is real? How is she in tune with what it means to be a human? Being human at the hands of the TV is being completely warped, corroded, and reprogrammed to be dysfunctional, strange, and uncaring.......

i dunno man.

The problem isn't just this society. It's the very fabric of existence as a human. It is flawed to begin wtih. The Buddha's First Noble Truth. Existence is Suffering.

but this society seems spirtually, sexually, psychedelically, creatively depraved.

but rejoice in the counterculture.  :yinyang: the goal is not to have a schism between authority and freedom, rather, to unite the two. because the two will ALWAYS exist and the more extreme one gets, the more extreme the other.

i mean, netherlands, they have tons of cops. they also have shrooms and pot and peyote, and wacky culture....... hippies and America can exist at the same time believe it or not....... the government of course sort of denies this and discriminates through law (sort of)


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (08/18/06 05:05 PM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: why law? [Re: leery11]
    #5976693 - 08/18/06 06:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
we dont' need law to tell us that:
murder
rape
property damage
theft

are HARMFUL to society!




Laws are society. Society is a spoken or unspoken set of agreed upon behaviours. This is the only place where a sense of right and wrong come from. Otherwise right and wrong are replaced with survival and death.
When two people come into contact in anyway, a social setting is formed, and both people expect the other to act a certain way.

I think a huge problem with Americans is the lack of respect or even understanding for other societal structures, and in doing so, come to not just believe, but KNOW that our social structure is the best and should be adhered to at all times, lest face the American outrage and gasps of prudish self-absorbed shock.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: why law? [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5976712 - 08/18/06 06:28 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:

Laws are society. Society is a spoken or unspoken set of agreed upon behaviours.




good points .....


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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OfflineGomp
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Re: why law? [Re: leery11]
    #5976775 - 08/18/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Nature...


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: why law? [Re: leery11]
    #5979423 - 08/19/06 07:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

we dont' need law to tell us that:
murder
rape
property damage
theft

are HARMFUL to society!


right.

So why law...... why law enforcement?

because some people do not care that murder, rape, and robbery harm others, and commit these acts anyway.

People that break laws are above law enforcement

no they aren't. they are arrested and incarcerated.

Now our society may be too lazy to systematically hunt after people who transgress its wellbeing and seek to deliberatley harm others, so in this sense having a squadron of trained people to go after such "renegades" is sensible... but why a formal legal system.

are you suggesting a squad of extrajudiciary vigilantes who follow no formal code of law and jurisprudence? i don't think that's wise.

but Christ, I ask you all... what keeps you from harming others, is it the fact that harming others is illegal, or the fact that common sense and conscience (which yes not everyone has) dictates that:
1. it is wrong.
2. it is wrong because it would bring suffering upon me if it was done to me the way i do it to this person.

so why law?


because not everyone feels that way. if they did, we would not need (or have) laws or government.


--------------------



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