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OfflineAndy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: george galloway on israel [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5972054 - 08/17/06 03:26 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Nope Zappa you are in fact lying and muddying the waters to see what you want to see. Death toll Wheres your source Zappa? Let me find you an article about Mossadegh The good ole red scare was just a bullshit excuse for America to get involved like the Saddam 9/11 link, a paper dream swallowed by the sheeple. You want me to make a choice between act or not act but the world is not so simple as that Ill quote from an article by Al Uthman to state my point:
Quote:

One argument I’ve seen raised a few times now perfectly illustrates what I’m saying. It goes something like this: “If some terrorist group was firing rockets across the Mexican or Canadian border into America, would we just sit there and take it?” It’s a rhetorical question, of course—because the answer is supposed to be an obvious “no.”
But what’s the rest of that answer? Think about it. Would we bomb the Toronto airport? Would we blast Mexican cities with barrages of artillery shells, killing thousands of innocent people in the process? Would we destroy highways, bridges, and apartment buildings? Of course not. That would be entirely out of proportion with the problem. Israel says it doesn’t “intend” to kill innocent civilians, but it’s a fair bet, when you level a city block, that’s precisely what you’re doing.





Heres another good bit from an article by Al Uthman
Quote:

[ In fact, although it’s very unfashionable to mention, Israel itself was largely established through terrorism, and more than a few of its leaders were terrorists—former Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, for instance, who organized the King David Hotel bombing, which occurred exactly 60 years ago last Saturday (David Ben-Gurion, later to be Israel’s first PM, approved of the attack as well, but withdrew his support before it took place). The bombing took the lives of 92 people, including 41 Arabs, 28 Brits and 17 Jews, and injured 45 people as well.

Defenders of the bombing stress that calls were made to warn of the bombing, urging the Brits to evacuate the hotel, and went unheeded. But this clearly doesn’t absolve them of their crime. The IRA, for instance, made a habit of blowing up buildings when they were unoccupied, but that never mitigated their status as a terrorist organization. Needless to say, if a similar bombing occurred today and was perpetrated by a Muslim group, there would be no controversy in Western media about whether it constituted a terrorist act.

You’d think that modern Israeli leaders would like to sweep events like this under the rug, but you’d be wrong, as the Times of London reported last weekend (“British anger at terror celebration,” 7/20/06):


“ The rightwingers, including Binyamin Netanyahu, the former Prime Minister, are commemorating the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the headquarters of British rule, that killed 92 people and helped to drive the British from Palestine. “
They have erected a plaque outside the restored building, and are holding a two-day seminar with speeches and a tour of the hotel by one of the Jewish resistance fighters involved in the attack.”

The piece goes on:

“The controversy over the plaque and the two-day celebration of the bombing, sponsored by Irgun veterans and the right-wing Menachem Begin Heritage Centre, goes to the heart of the debate over the use of political violence in the Middle East. Yesterday Mr Netanyahu argued in a speech celebrating the attack that the Irgun were governed by morals, unlike fighters from groups such as Hamas. “
It’s very important to make the distinction between terror groups and freedom fighters, and between terror action and legitimate military action,” he said. “Imagine that Hamas or Hezbollah would call the military headquarters in Tel Aviv and say, ‘We have placed a bomb and we are asking you to evacuate the area’.”
Yes, just imagine. I’m sure everyone would have a sudden change of heart about Islamic “freedom fighters” if only they’d call ahead.



Edited by Andy21 (08/17/06 03:27 AM)

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: george galloway on israel [Re: Basilides]
    #5973166 - 08/17/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

I'll say it again, we do not know if those soldiers were captured from inside isreal or lebanon.




Yes we do.

A) The Arab League condemned the attack as cross border

B) Hezbollah has never denied it

C) Hezbollah planned the attack for a long time

D) Hezbollah even gave the attack a name

E) The intention of the attack in itself was to kidnap 1 or more live Israeli soldiers. The element of such a planned incursion is always going to involve cross border hostility.

F) It doesn't really matter anyways, as Hezbollah fired a feint Katyusha into Israel that day.




Hezbollah never denied it? What do you call those 5 or 6 links posted in a previous thread on this subject? Numerous news agencies reported the soldiers were captured inside lebanon. Hell, even redstorm said he wasn't sure where they were captured at.

They planned the attack for a long time? I'd say that quality belongs to isreal. How long does it take to ambush a small company of men? Now, how long does it take to launch a massive scale ground and air campaign? Isreal has been planning this alot longer than hezbollah.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: george galloway on israel [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5973191 - 08/17/06 03:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What do I have to do with the kidnappings? I'm no authoritative source on the matter.

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Registered: 05/29/06
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Re: george galloway on israel [Re: Redstorm]
    #5975117 - 08/18/06 02:54 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No, but you are an example of someone more middle-ground than myself. Zappa's pathetic assertion that I was trying to mislead anyone concerning this matter is just another of his attempts at smearing the person he is debating, the usual tactic.

When in fact there is nothing to smear, I made no lie. It is unknown which side of the boarder the ambush took place and the right wingers "opinions" do not constitute fact. I am not saying where it happened, I am simply stating that we (the world) do not know at this point outside of a handful of people close enough to have truly known. And last I read you were on the fence on this issue so I used you as an example of someone who had not yet been convinced aside from myself.

If more evidence has been provided to prove this one way or the other I haven't seen it yet. Nor do I know exactly what would prove it beyond a doubt aside from the people involved (either side) coming clean and changing their statements. Though I somehow doubt that is going to happen.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 13 days
Re: george galloway on israel [Re: Basilides]
    #5975259 - 08/18/06 06:27 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Do you even know that happened that day? Hezbollah fired a diversionary rocket into Israel with the sole purpose of making a cross border ambush on some very light Israeli patrol. We're talking about 2 lightly armored Israeli humvees consisting of only 5 soldiers. This attack by Hezbollah was also planned for a long time. It even had the code name "Truthful Promise".




Link?


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: george galloway on israel [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5975914 - 08/18/06 01:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

RosettaStoned writes:

Quote:

It is unknown which side of the boarder the ambush took place and the right wingers "opinions" do not constitute fact. I am not saying where it happened, I am simply stating that we (the world) do not know at this point outside of a handful of people close enough to have truly known.




Where do you -- I mean you personally, RosettaStoned -- obtain the information upon which you draw your conclusions? Do you only accept as fact that which you see with your own eyes? Or do you depend on reports from books, print, radio and television to inform yourself about incidents at which you were not present?

You say (about the hezbollah raid) that there were a handful of people close enough to have really known what happened. Fair enough, but that is true about just about everything one reads in the news. Do you accept that a dozen men walked on the moon in the late Sixties and early Seventies? Because that's a pretty small handful upon which to base your belief. What about the Beltway snipers a couple years back? Do you believe they killed a bunch of people? After all, you weren't there yourself to witness the shootings.

What about Hussein's invasion of Kuwait? Did the media get that wrong as well? You weren't there to see it start -- for all you know it was Kuwait who invaded Iraq, and Hussein was just retaliating out of self defense.

You say, "If more evidence has been provided to prove this one way or the other I haven't seen it yet. Nor do I know exactly what would prove it beyond a doubt aside from the people involved (either side) coming clean and changing their statements."

Here we see demonstrated your assumption that the reports are in fact WRONG (upon what do you base this assumption?) and that the only way to prove beyond a doubt that what was reported actually happened is for the people reporting it to report the opposite of what they reported -- "CHANGE their statements". Why would they change their statements if their statements were true from the beginning?

There is exactly ZERO evidence that this latest flareup in the MidEast started in any way other than what has been reported -- Hezbollah made a raid and the Israelis responded. Not even Hezbollah has denied it.

Yet somehow that's not good enough for you. Why?

I will agree that no matter how good one is at applying logic to facts, the result is worthless if one apples logic to non-facts. But if you are going to discount all the information you receive over the course of your life from any source other than your own personal experience, you're going to end up one ignorant puppy. MIGHT some of the reported facts you receive over your lifetime turn out to be non-facts at some point down the road? Of course. It's not a rare occurrence that the press will misreport something. That's when a rational person rethinks matters based on new information -- if such new information is ever reported, that is. But to assume automatically that EVERYTHING reported in the international news is wrong is nuts.

There is no point you even posting in this forum if that's your take on news sources, because you will necessarily be arguing from a point of ignorance on pretty much every topic discussed in this forum. Oh, maybe every now and then you will be able to contribute to a thread on some protest march that you yourself actually attended, but otherwise you'll be just flapping your gums, because you'll be addressing events which occurred outside your presence -- events of which your PERSONAL knowledge is nil.




Phred


--------------------

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 540
Loc: North America
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Re: george galloway on israel [Re: Phred]
    #5977843 - 08/19/06 04:04 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Nice try phred. You aren't baiting me this time. I have seen about 5 or 6 different news articles stating the ambush took place inside lebanon. And I have seen about the same number of news articles saying it took place in isreal. (from news agencies around the world, and I even linked about 5 in another thread) That is why I question where it happened. Both sides are claiming different stories. That means someone is lying, right?


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: george galloway on israel [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5977928 - 08/19/06 07:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I have seen about 5 or 6 different news articles stating the ambush took place inside lebanon.




Suuuure you have -- if you count infowars and prisonplanet as news agencies. Got a link to a news story from AFP, AP, Reuters, BBC, ABC, NBC, CBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, the New York Times, the London Times, the Washington Post, the Independent, the Observer or the National Post reporting the soldiers were captured inside Lebanon?

Didn't think so.

Hell even Al Jazeera -- Al Jazeera, of all sources -- reports the raid by Hezbollah was into Israel. And let's not forget the shower of Katyushas launched into Israel before the raid. Again, even Al Jazeera admits this.






Phred


--------------------

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InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
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Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
Re: george galloway on israel [Re: Phred]
    #5977952 - 08/19/06 08:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

yeah but even an idealouge such as yourself has to admit, israel is not innocent. they have really done a lot of shit to fuck with the arabs...id say the killing of civilians is equally done on both side. the media portrays israel as some innocent country who just had to attack. they arent, you and i both know this. when they kill civilians is it more legitamite because they use tanks and planes instead of suicide bombers?? ive heard a palestinian interviewd basically saying if the us gave them the kinda money they give israel and they could buy tanks and shit...they wouldnt have to use bombers nor target civilians...they could actually fight the military on a somewhat equal level.

you know muslims dont really hate our freedoms. in fact muslims really didnt even hate us until we backed israel. if it wasnt for israel the US wouldnt have a problem with terrorism. bin laden himself in all his reasons for attacking never mentions hating our freedoms..he mentions hating our support of zionists. why do you guys on the right need to lie to the public. i mean blatently lie and scare people into thinking arabs hate us because of our freedoms. instead of actually listening to what the conservative muslims are saying their reasons for hating us are.

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OfflineAndy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: george galloway on israel [Re: Phred]
    #5977982 - 08/19/06 08:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Here you go mr Phred enjoy. Forbes Israeli soldiers taken in Lebannon,
China Post Article ,
Asia Times.
These are from a 30 second google search, theres probably more to find.

Edited by Andy21 (08/19/06 08:48 AM)

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: george galloway on israel [Re: Andy21]
    #5978022 - 08/19/06 09:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You link to two versions of the same AP early report -- neither of which say the Israeli soldiers were inside Lebanon, by the way -- and an opinion piece (not a news report, but an opinion piece) in the Asia Times by one Sami Moubayed? This is your "rebuttal"?

Try again.




Phred


--------------------

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OfflineAndy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: george galloway on israel [Re: Phred]
    #5978086 - 08/19/06 10:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them.




I am not attempting a rebuttal I am saying there were conflicting agency reports. Which I have done. I do not much care about whether the Israeli soldiers were inside or outside Lebanon, it is clear from the action of Israel that the soldiers were merely a pretext anyway. Much like the gulf of Ton kin incident for Vietnam, WMD for Iraq etc just an excuse.

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: george galloway on israel [Re: Andy21]
    #5978102 - 08/19/06 10:19 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

As I said, the early AP report doesn't specify who crossed the border. Later reports are unanimous that it was Hezbollah who did. Even the next AP update by the very same reporter who filed the first report makes that clear -- http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873987.html

It was of course also Hezbollah who fired off a bunch of Katyushas into Israel at the same time they were carrying out the raid. Some reports say the rockets were launched before the raid, others say concurrent with the raid, but in every case the rocket launches came before any Israeli response to Hezbollah's raid.




Phred


--------------------

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OfflineAndy21
Armchairanarchist

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 288
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: george galloway on israel [Re: Phred]
    #5978120 - 08/19/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So what do we discuss now then, whether Israels response was proportionate to the threat it faced?

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InvisibleHank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
Re: george galloway on israel [Re: Phred]
    #5978701 - 08/19/06 02:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I could see Al Jezera(sp?)reporting it a raid on Israeli land as somewhat of a boost for Muslim pride. That aside, I have seen conflicting reports on this, and I am not ready to make my decision yet. Lets also remember where we get most of our news from, it is often slanted in Israeli favor.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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InvisibleLuddite
I watch Fox News
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,946
Re: george galloway on israel [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #5982402 - 08/20/06 09:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Some more videos.

3 former terrorists talk about their culture
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaUftcRJ5wo&NR

Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vypKSWHlnKA&mode=related&search=

The Jews Took No One's Land
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5KGx3iZQwI&mode=related&search=

The Culture of Jihad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9b7S2HA8Go&mode=related&search=

Irshad Manji & Walid Shoebat on DaySide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGe7WyrXIMc

Irshad Manji interviewed on The O'Reilly Factor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7gCzw1oz3Q

Straight from an ex-muslim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wPglHZQf-0&NR

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InvisibleHank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
Re: george galloway on israel [Re: Luddite]
    #5982598 - 08/20/06 10:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You wrote in another thread:

"The best thing for us to do in the West is to have everyone register their religion (or lack of religion) with the government and have everyone wear a badge or carry an RFID tag carrying that information. Any muslim who lies and says he belongs to another religion when he hasn't converted or become an apostate should get the death penalty. All muslims can then be segregated from non-muslims if need be, ie. on planes, buses, etc. and/or muslims could be searched more carefully."

Your videos are propaganda, pure and simple. I also find it intriguing that you don't capitalize your 4 uses of the word Muslim, but capitalize your 1 usage of West.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: george galloway on israel [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #5983388 - 08/21/06 09:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The video with the three former terrorists seemed terribly scripted by Republicans. :lol:

"This is huge!" :smirk:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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