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OfflinePhred
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CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden
    #5965820 - 08/15/06 01:31 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting interview with Peter Bergen. There's nothing new here to those who spend as much time informing themselves as some of us in this forum do, but it's refreshing to see such a piece on CNN. Much as I disdain CNN in general, I can't deny it is one of the world's more widely watched news outlets. I don't know if this interview will ever go out over the airwaves as a broadcast piece or if it's a website-only thing, but it's still encouraging to see not everyone at CNN has their heads up their asses.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/08/15/bergen.answers/index.html



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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: Phred]
    #5965829 - 08/15/06 01:34 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

He provides no sources...


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: Phred]
    #5965836 - 08/15/06 01:36 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting.

Peter Bergen is one of the few credible employees at CNN


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OfflinePhred
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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: barfightlard]
    #5965840 - 08/15/06 01:37 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

On which points do you feel he could have provided sources?



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OfflinePhred
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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: Phred]
    #5965864 - 08/15/06 01:44 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

This is one of the few times I miss having a television. Looks like there's a fairly detailed TV special coming up on CNN on Aug 23. The questions Bergen is answering in this piece are apparently part of the documentary that will be shown next week -- http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/presents/index.bin.laden.html

Maybe I can watch this at a friend's house. I'll have to see.




Phred


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: Phred]
    #5965866 - 08/15/06 01:44 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

maybe OBL didnt work for the CIA.. maybe he did (and im inclined to believe the latter)...but the reagan administration was openly arming him FFS...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5965883 - 08/15/06 01:49 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Actually, that is not the case. The CIA was arming Afghani mujahadin during the USSR's occupation of Afghanistan. Bin Laden was also arming Afghani mujahadin during the USSR's occupation of Afghanistan. That doesn't mean the CIA was arming bin Laden any more than it means the several other countries arming the mujahadin were arming bin Laden.

It is not impossible that some of the same groups of mujahadin bin Laden was working with ended up with arms supplied by the CIA. So what?




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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: Phred]
    #5965887 - 08/15/06 01:50 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Well its a general fact that the United States provided financial support and modern weapons to Pashtun tribesmen and foreign Mujahadin in the Afghan-Russian war(79-91) such as Stinger missile launchers to bring down russian helicopters and destroy russian tanks.

Osama bin Laden was the leader of a very large Mujahadin organization and was in contact with rebels from Chechnya(Ibn al Khattab) to Bosnia with the organization called MAK cofounded with Abdullah Azzam which was allegedly given support by many countries (UK,USA,Pakistan,Saudia Arabia)

The rift of Osama came with the 92 Desert Storm which erroded the legitimacy of the house of Saud.


Although Peter Bergen is a well respected journalist and one of the few western interviewers of Bin Laden. I dont think Bin Laden or the CIA or anyone for that matter will acknowledge that at one time they were helped by the CIA. This action would certainly erode the support for both sides.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: Phred]
    #5965936 - 08/15/06 02:05 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Actually, that is not the case. The CIA was arming Afghani mujahadin during the USSR's occupation of Afghanistan. Bin Laden was also arming Afghani mujahadin during the USSR's occupation of Afghanistan. That doesn't mean the CIA was arming bin Laden any more than it means the several other countries arming the mujahadin were arming bin Laden.

It is not impossible that some of the same groups of mujahadin bin Laden was working with ended up with arms supplied by the CIA. So what?




Phred




OK..but someone still had to be providing OBL with arms which he in turn supplied to those mujahadin..and it who it was is well known and documented ..

http://www.slate.com/id/2102243/
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/06/10/1425222


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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: Phred]
    #5965954 - 08/15/06 02:10 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Actually, that is not the case. The CIA was arming Afghani mujahadin during the USSR's occupation of Afghanistan. Bin Laden was also arming Afghani mujahadin during the USSR's occupation of Afghanistan. That doesn't mean the CIA was arming bin Laden any more than it means the several other countries arming the mujahadin were arming bin Laden.

It is not impossible that some of the same groups of mujahadin bin Laden was working with ended up with arms supplied by the CIA. So what?



Ok, my impression was that Bin Laden was a leader of the mujahadin, which means that the CIA was involved, if not directly with Bin Laden, then at least indirectly through his peers. I realize it's not as big a connection as many people try to claim, but I thought it was odd that Bergen didn't at least bring it up in order to clarify his point.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5965973 - 08/15/06 02:18 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

And once again you demonstrate your inabilty to support your assertions. Neither of those links says anything about the CIA supplying arms to bin Laden.

Was bin Laden assisting the muj? Indisputably. Was the CIA assisting the muj as well? They certainly were. But that does not mean the CIA was supplying arms to the muj through bin Laden.




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OfflinePhred
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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: Silversoul]
    #5965986 - 08/15/06 02:23 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Ok, my impression was that Bin Laden was a leader of the mujahadin...




But that's the thing. He wasn't a leader. He was for the most part a financier, although there are (disputed) reports that at later stages of the conflict he was present (not as a commander, mind you, just that he was there) at an ambush or two.

I suspect the upcoming CNN special will shed more light on his role in the Afghanistan fighting in the Eighties. We'll have to wait a week for that, though.



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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: Phred]
    #5966403 - 08/15/06 05:00 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Was bin Laden assisting the muj? Indisputably. Was the CIA assisting the muj as well? They certainly were. But that does not mean the CIA was supplying arms to the muj through bin Laden.




And no amount of wishful thinking on your part can prove they were not directly assisting and training bin laden. When you train a foreign fighting force, you work with their leaders first. We all know bin laden is a celebrated general of the afgan-russia war. We know for a fact the CIA directly aided the arab leaders to fight the russians. Claiming that they aided afgan leaders except bin laden is wishful thinking that flies in the face of logical reasoning.

Let me outline it again for you wishful thinkers.

CIA aided afgan leaders - bin laden was a well respected afgan leader - thus the CIA aided bin laden.

That is called logical reasoning, some people should try it sometime. Is it possible they didn't directly work with bin laden? Sure. But how likely is it that the CIA didn't seek out the afgan leaders with the most influence among the fighting men? Bin laden had just that influence.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5966429 - 08/15/06 05:08 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

While it is very possible that some of that aid went to Bin Laden, you seem to be asserting that the Mujahadeen was a singular, united fighting force. This is far from the truth. There were several groups fighting the Soviets, among them the Maktab al-Khadamat (MAK), which was more or less run and financed by BL.


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: Redstorm]
    #5966463 - 08/15/06 05:20 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

you seem to be asserting that the Mujahadeen was a singular, united fighting force




I do not think I implied that at all. I used terms like "afgan leaderS" to cover all of them. And you pointing this out raises a valid point: In order to have any organized resistance to the soviets the CIA would have to have sought out all of the individual afgan leaders. If they left out any of the commanders that would have created an area for russia to exploit. Since there was no real chain of command they couldn't just go to the top general and expect the US aid to be properly funneled down to effectively combat russia's efforts.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5969106 - 08/16/06 12:47 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RosettaStoned said:
We all know bin laden is a celebrated general of the afgan-russia war. 




Wait a minute, I don't know that. :grin:

Got any sort of source for that assertion? I mean, by the sounds of it, he was a millionare Saudi who probably bought the role he "played" in the war. :lol:

But then, who knows, not me. :tongue:

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: CNN's Peter Bergen on bin Laden [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5969528 - 08/16/06 04:01 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Osama formed his own army of mujahideen and fought the soviets. One of his most significant battles was the battle of Jaji, which was not a major fight, but it earned him a reputation as a fighter.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#Afghan_Jihad_resisting_the_Soviet_invasion

If you form an army and lead them in battle, does that not make you a general? Although he probably had the title commander since that was the most common title used by the leaders in the jihad against russia. I would give more links but when you type "bin laden" in a search engine you get far more shit that I am willing to sift through.

Bin laden is most certainly viewed by afghans as a great leader and war hero of the soviet invasion resistance, among other things.

Also interesting to note, that bergen made a boldface lie right here.

Quote:

terrorism analyst Peter Bergen says the notion that Osama bin Laden once worked for the CIA is "simply a folk myth" and that there's no shred of evidence to support such theories.




http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/08/15/bergen.answers/index.html

So bin laden formed the mujahideen, they were his army. Yet the US didn't fund or train bin laden? And there is no evidence?

Quote:

The mujahideen were significantly financed, armed, and trained by the United States (during the Carter and Reagan administrations) and by Pakistan (during the Zia-ul-Haq military regime), the People's Republic of China, and Saudi Arabia. The Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) was the interagent used in the majority of these activities to disguise the sources of support for the resistance.

Ronald Reagan praised them as freedom fighters, and the 1988 Rambo III, portrayed them as heroic. This connection is ironic, in light of the future turn of events in which many of the same men would end up as a major threat to the United States.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen#Afghan_Mujahideen

No, no evidence at all  :rolleyes:

Weather you believe bergen or not, he is now a proven liar and embellisher of the truth. He claims there is no evidence when there is most certainly evidence, that is a lie. Thus if he has told one lie then anything else he says is subject to such inaccuracies.


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"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


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