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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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possible reason for "magic"
    #5965192 - 08/15/06 04:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

so this is related to my previous post in there reguarding my friends trip and it got me thinking about why there are magic mushrooms....why it would produce such a thing.

imagine yourself out in the woods, in nature. Your hungry and looking for food. You see a mushroom and say oh hell yes im eating that. Then later the trip hits you, and your most likely in the same area or close by.

This trip from the mushys puts you in a confused state, it may be harder to see, you get really thursty, might feel sick, you will get scared easier...panic and not react to things as well....remember you in the woods with animals...prey. and it might be getting dark soon. sounds, visuals...everything affecting you different.....you could just be sitting there staring at a tree or an ant...then bAMb

in a fight with another animal you will most likely lose....even if you do win...the mushrooms purpose has been filled. it got an animal to die near where it lives(the mushroom). and therefor after you or the animal gets its fill of the food....leter the mushrooms get his fill as the body decomposes.

so i just thought this idea was interesting....may or may not be anything new...but it was to me....and i feel it makes perfect sense.
i wasn't sure exactly where to post this but thought it would do fine here.

thoughts anyone?


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Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.


Edited by makaveli8x8 (08/15/06 04:04 AM)


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Offlinetwiggedoubt
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #5965211 - 08/15/06 04:33 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, I don't think to many people are going to argue with the idea that its a natural defense mechanism, except maybe people that think its a gift from god (though who knows how much old than humans they are), and plants really don't exist to benefit humans, which IMO is a pretty arrogant, attitude. We are not the center of the universe. Almost any animal that eats mushrooms will either A) After thousands of years of fucking up develope some type of tolerence to the "poison" B)Stop eating the fucking thing or C)Die out. Of course natural selection is never done, and animals will always eat stupid shit, but it becomes less frequent, and repeat offenses are a lot rarer. This, like any natural defense is a means to make people stay away, not eat them, its just that some humans find one mans poison as another man's treasure.


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OfflineWysefool
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #5965215 - 08/15/06 04:37 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I don't have anything to add but that sounds entirely possible


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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5965217 - 08/15/06 04:38 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i thought poeple DO argue with the idea its a defense mechanism, seeing as how it affects animals much much less strongly than humans?

also, psychedelic mushrooms don't eat rotting animals?

edit: affects animals less strongly because most animals don't have very developed centers of the brain where mushrooms do thier magic... i hear it once, anyone want to let me know if this is correct? wiccan?


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Edited by truekimbo2 (08/15/06 04:39 AM)


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Offlinetwiggedoubt
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: truekimbo2]
    #5965228 - 08/15/06 04:46 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, so if you give a dog a magic mushroom, he won't feel it? Also, some people think the Earth is 6000 years old and will argue it, it doesn't mean shit. If mushrooms have a reason to have tryptamines other than a defense mechanism, I sure as hell would like to know why. And don't give me a Terence McKenna answer either, as I know that defense.


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Invisiblekaniz
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5965308 - 08/15/06 06:26 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Have you ever seen someone go into 'fight mode' while tripping on Mush? it can bring out some of the most aggressive behavior I've seen in people.

And while not mushroom related, still psychedelic - there are animals that will eat psychedelics before taking part in fights with other animals.

Quote:


what does this tell us about the consciousness of something like a mandrill, which munches the intensely potent iboga root, then waits up to two hours for the effects to kick in before engaging in territorial battle with another mandrill?




(From a book that looks at other animals use of Psychedelics, humans arnt the only ones who like to trip out :smile:)

Also, not every mushroom trip gets you out of your head / confused / lost / etc. Some mushrooms can /greatly/ enhance your edge detection while still leaving you clear headed and even more alert then you would be otherwise. Wouldn't this be handy when hunting? You can better make out the lines between objects/items while also being more alert to what's going on around you. You can also pick up on the subtleties in other animals better and see body language that you may otherwise not of noticed which gives you a better indication if something is a threat, when they are going to move, how they are going to move, etc.

Hell, my current batch of mushrooms give me a very clear-headed high, no visual distortions, but christ - everything is so crystal clear / defined. You can like, clearly make out /every/ blade of grass in a field of long grass. You notice /every/ bug, every animal, you look at a flower and you see like, every fine edge/detail in it.

Hell, depending on who you listen to, and how much you buy into the theories - there are theories around saying that Psychedelics actually aided in the evolution of man. Creating better hunters, and altering thought patterns in ways that they tried to do things in new ways that they wouldn't of tried otherwise before. Combined with creating religious experiences with increased empathy towards other tribe-mates/etc and creating better bonds/empathy/etc which allowed the cultures to grow in ways that they wouldnt of otherwise.

While I do think that most likely it is a defense mechanism, I dont think its as far as 'so that they can end up killing someone so the mushrooms can feed on its corpse' kind of thing.

and last I checked, mushrooms dont grow on dead bodies - grain, shit, wood, but decomposing corpses? that'd be news to me.

Not nessicarly saying mushrooms are gods gift to man, just giving some counter-arguments to yours. Just saying that mushrooms do not always leave a person in a helpless/defenseless state that makes them easy prey to the world around them, but can also have the oppoiste effect and giving them an upper hand.


Edited by kaniz (08/15/06 06:30 AM)


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InvisibleAbrainspot
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #5965314 - 08/15/06 06:40 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I agree man, lots of stuff in nature works that way, its definitely pretty crazy.


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: kaniz]
    #5965377 - 08/15/06 07:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

kaniz said:
Have you ever seen someone go into 'fight mode' while tripping on Mush? it can bring out some of the most aggressive behavior I've seen in people.

And while not mushroom related, still psychedelic - there are animals that will eat psychedelics before taking part in fights with other animals.

Quote:


what does this tell us about the consciousness of something like a mandrill, which munches the intensely potent iboga root, then waits up to two hours for the effects to kick in before engaging in territorial battle with another mandrill?




(From a book that looks at other animals use of Psychedelics, humans arnt the only ones who like to trip out :smile:)

Also, not every mushroom trip gets you out of your head / confused / lost / etc. Some mushrooms can /greatly/ enhance your edge detection while still leaving you clear headed and even more alert then you would be otherwise. Wouldn't this be handy when hunting? You can better make out the lines between objects/items while also being more alert to what's going on around you. You can also pick up on the subtleties in other animals better and see body language that you may otherwise not of noticed which gives you a better indication if something is a threat, when they are going to move, how they are going to move, etc.

Hell, my current batch of mushrooms give me a very clear-headed high, no visual distortions, but christ - everything is so crystal clear / defined. You can like, clearly make out /every/ blade of grass in a field of long grass. You notice /every/ bug, every animal, you look at a flower and you see like, every fine edge/detail in it.

Hell, depending on who you listen to, and how much you buy into the theories - there are theories around saying that Psychedelics actually aided in the evolution of man. Creating better hunters, and altering thought patterns in ways that they tried to do things in new ways that they wouldn't of tried otherwise before. Combined with creating religious experiences with increased empathy towards other tribe-mates/etc and creating better bonds/empathy/etc which allowed the cultures to grow in ways that they wouldnt of otherwise.

While I do think that most likely it is a defense mechanism, I dont think its as far as 'so that they can end up killing someone so the mushrooms can feed on its corpse' kind of thing.

and last I checked, mushrooms dont grow on dead bodies - grain, shit, wood, but decomposing corpses? that'd be news to me.

Not nessicarly saying mushrooms are gods gift to man, just giving some counter-arguments to yours. Just saying that mushrooms do not always leave a person in a helpless/defenseless state that makes them easy prey to the world around them, but can also have the oppoiste effect and giving them an upper hand.





:mushroom2: You said everything I would have said and more, before I had a chance to say it. +5


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Invisiblemecreateme
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #5965401 - 08/15/06 08:22 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

One would have to wander upon one hell of a patch and eat quite a few freshies, that not to mention taste pretty nasty, IMO, to achieve the effects that you are talking about. There are comfortable levels of tripping. Just because you have been scared confused does not mean that is how it always effects everyone.

I once heard a Terrence McKenna tape where he spoke of the three levels of mushroom intoxication. The first level was a slight visual enhancement, colors were richer and things were easier to make out, night vision improved, etc... he said that early hunters would ingest small amounts to help them hunt. Then for the second level he said that after you eat a few more mushrooms, things begin to undulate. People become very sexual in nature and he went on as to how natives would gather a basket of mushrooms and the people in the villiage would eat a few mushrooms and engage in a psychedelic fueled orgy. And then of course, the third level was conversing with the mushroom(logos) and other high dose phenomena.


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No ONE wants to know the ultimate TRUTH, as soon as YOU find IT out, YOU want to forget IT.

You are everything's way of feeling itself.

Happy Schwag, everygodly!


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InvisibleLand_Crab
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #5965577 - 08/15/06 09:58 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Kind of makes you wonder how many other undiscovered psychoactive substances might be out there, living inside plants or animals. (Maybe insects?)
I bet there's at least one sea creature that makes you trip.


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Offlinetoastandjam
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: kaniz]
    #5965604 - 08/15/06 10:13 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

kaniz said:

While I do think that most likely it is a defense mechanism, I dont think its as far as 'so that they can end up killing someone so the mushrooms can feed on its corpse' kind of thing.

and last I checked, mushrooms dont grow on dead bodies - grain, shit, wood, but decomposing corpses? that'd be news to me.

Not nessicarly saying mushrooms are gods gift to man, just giving some counter-arguments to yours. Just saying that mushrooms do not always leave a person in a helpless/defenseless state that makes them easy prey to the world around them, but can also have the oppoiste effect and giving them an upper hand.





People weren't nearly enough of a threat. Think smaller, like insects and other plants. Nearly all alkaloid content in plants is for resistance to being chewed on by something else. Like nicotine sulfate being used as an insecticide. It's just convenient that what is toxic to the insects is not always toxic to us.


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Q: We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind and your horizons... and for one brief moment, you did.
PICARD: When I realized the paradox...
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you'd never considered. That's the exploration that awaits you...not mapping stars and studying nebulae... but charting the unknowable possibilities of existence.

To carry yourself forward and experience myriad things is delusion. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening. -Dogen Zenji


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Offlinetwiggedoubt
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: Land_Crab]
    #5965639 - 08/15/06 10:31 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Whether or not an animal likes to trip, it still would make more sense that most animals wouldn't like it. Plants and animals need to either produce natural defenses or produce some type of way to coexist, such as fruits that are eaten and spread thru animal excrement. Also, animals that work together with plants usually benefit each other, such as certain types of ants that live in certain types of trees. Also, you gotta consider natural selection.

Even if certain types of mushrooms can enhance certain skills, I have 1 question, would you drive on them? If you wouldn't drive on them, or suggest other people to drive on them this is the best response I could give. Who the fuck would wanna take magic mushrooms before a fight? I understand of course that some tribes take it during rituals, but what came first the mushrooms or the humans? Also, as to any drugs aiding the evolution of man, I really doubt that. The ability to learn is what aided man in technology, and thousands of years of natural selection. Once again, I will say just look at the sellouts from the 60's. They turned into what they hated, what good did psychedelics do them? You can believe whatever you want about evolution, as it is a theory, but how many scientists are preaching that? I bet creationism is more popular. It might be possible, but then again, I might be Jesus. This computer might be god, and my penis might turn into a sword tommorow, though it doesn't look to likely.

Also, look at all the tribes that do use psychedelics in there rituals in South America, and even in North America and compare them the rest of the world. They are lagging a bit behind.


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5965727 - 08/15/06 10:59 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

there is thinking that psilocybin is simply a carrier chemical to bring elements up to the cap necessary for spore production.  without going into the nerdy details too much... think about it... psilosin isn't far off from the amino acid tryptophan, which happens to be present in the "foods" that mushrooms "eat".  the mushrooms have the ability to add phosphorus to psilosin leaving you with psilocybin.  its proven that mushrooms also contain an enzyme to strip that phosphorus back off.  now why would you suppose it has both the ability to go from psilosin->psilocybin and from psilocybin->psilosin?    phosphorus is crucial to the development of dna.  spores, are little dna packets, that are produced all the way at the top of the mushroom.  both psilo* chemicals are water soluable and thus easily transported through the mushrooms.  so think of the actives as simply delivery men, bringing needed elements to the site of spore production.

at the end of the day, it could simply be a coincidence that this "chemical carrier" of sorts in the mushroom is chemically similar enough to fit its way in our own neurotransmitter receptors... and its not that far of a stretch to think it simply a lucky coincidence, because our body uses the same basic chemical building blocks that are present in foods to come up with those similarly structured neurotransmitters in the first place.  we obviously don't know the effects of mushrooms on animals.  there might be an observed change in behavior in some animals shortly after ingesting it, but surely their experience is not the same as ours, so there's no way you can simply write it off as a defense mechanism.  an example is slugs or fungus gnats, they are quite fond of psilo containing mushrooms.  they don't have the neurological system in place to be effected by the "active" chemicals within and can and do eat them all day long without a psychedelic effect... pretty wimpy defense mechanism if it can only effect higher mammals but not all of nature's other "parasites" who are just as likely to feed off them if you ask me...

or we can go off the deep end with another theory that was revealed to me while under the influence of said mushrooms. :smile:  the "purpose of life" from a cut & dry scientific standpoint is twofold: 1) to survive, 2) to further the species through reproduction.  think of all the crazy ways plants and animals have evolved to reproduce... think of how inefficient mushrooms really are at reproduction, for the billions of spores they produce, the tiniest fraction actually make it.  well maybe through an evolutionary process, the mushrooms have "learned" to outsmart us.  they're taking advantage of higher mammals for reproduction.  they offer a totally unique experience that few other plants or animals can come close to.  as such, they're desired.  they're protected, assisted, cultivated.  look at all the trouble people on shroomery here go through to grow them in their homes. :wink:  maybe the mushrooms are smarter than us... trading a desirable and unique experience in exchange for us helping them to survive and further the species.  its like other symbiotic relationships in nature where two different plants/animals/fungi what have you attach to one another and mutually benefit.


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Offlinetwiggedoubt
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: creamcorn]
    #5965754 - 08/15/06 11:07 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well that would make sense, but still even if that is the case, it still might because of natural selection that they survive long enough to drop their spores because animals don't seem to want to eat them. Also, even if slugs do eat them, once the spores drop their job is done and they can spread. I did notice a few bugs eating my outdoor patch now that you mention it, but I figured that it probally didn't affect them cause they have entirely different neurotransmitters. I don't think animals are that different from humans that psilocin or psilocybin wouldn't affect them either. Its pretty easy to tell, you can just feed them to an animal to figure this out, and actually I think my brothers friend did feed his dog mushrooms once, don't know what happened though. I do know LSD works on dogs though, and you figure most tryptamines bind to simular receptors, at least the theory goes.


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InvisibleStickyWater
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5966062 - 08/15/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)



Edited by StickyWater (05/03/08 02:23 AM)


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Offlinetwiggedoubt
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: StickyWater]
    #5966246 - 08/15/06 02:11 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If you wouldn't drive on mushrooms, then why would you want to fight for your life on mushrooms? The best way to do anything that requires consentration is sober, whether working, hunting, or doing homework. Also, my comment about the people from the 60's was to point out that humans are binded by human nature, and not even drugs can change that. Of course some people are exceptions, ideals can't buy food. I really think people that believe that humans needed psychedelics to evolve are really underestimating our species, and all animals for that matter. We will do anything to survive, and over time that anything means changing to fit the environment. The progress of man is thanks to the sacrifice of our ancestors, both good and bad and shouldn't be contributed to some fungus. Also, many people don't even like psychedelics, probally most people, let alone magic mushrooms which arean't even that recreational imo.


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InvisibleJackTackle
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5966266 - 08/15/06 02:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i don't know how many psychadelic mushrooms feast on decaying flesh... but i'm guessing... none


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Offlineezsefix
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: twiggedoubt]
    #5966294 - 08/15/06 02:28 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I can't even finish reading this thread. These are some of the most crackpot theories I've ever read. Have more respect!


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InvisibleStickyWater
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: JackTackle]
    #5966298 - 08/15/06 02:28 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)



Edited by StickyWater (05/03/08 02:22 AM)


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OfflineDrGeek
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Re: possible reason for "magic" [Re: JackTackle]
    #5966337 - 08/15/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

That theory about psilocybin/psilocin aiding in spore production makes a lot of sense. I wonder if mescaline has any important function in cacti.


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