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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
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The Connection
    #5963752 - 08/14/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I am reading a book by Stephen F. Hayes. It is titled "The Connection; How al Qaeda's Collaboration with Saddam Hussein Has Endangered America"

Here is how he began Chapter 12:

Quote:

Iraqi intelligence documents from 1992 list Osama Bin Laden as an Iraqi intelligence asset. Numerous sources have reported a 1993 nonaggression pact between Iraq and al Qaeda. The former deputy director of Iraqi intelligence now in US Custody says that Bin Laden asked the Iraqi regime for arms and training in a face-to-face meeting in 1994. Senior al Qaeda leader Abu Hajer al Iraqi met with Iraqi intelligence officials in 1995. The National Security Agency intercepted telephone conversations between al Qaeda-supported Sudanese military officials and the head of Iraq's chemical weapons program in 1996. Al Qaeda sent Abu Abdallah al Iraqi to Iraq for help with weapons of mass destruction in 1997. An indictment from the Clinton-era Justice Department cited Iraqi assistance on al Qaeda "weapons development" in 1998. A senior Clinton administration counter-terrorism official told the Washington Post that the U.S. government was "sure" Iraq had supported al Qaeda chemical weapons programs in 1999. An Iraqi working closely with the Iraqi embassy in Kuala Lumpur was photographed with September 11 hijacker Khalid al Mihndhar en route to a planning meeting for the bombing of the USS Cole and the September 11 attacks of 2000. Satellite photographs showed al Qaeda members in 2001 traveling en masse to a compound in northern Iraq financed, in part, by the Iraqi regime. Abu Musab al Zarqawi, senior al Qaeda associate, operated openly in Baghdad and received medical attention at a regime-supported hospital in 2002. Documents discovered in postwar Iraq in 2003 reveal that Saddam's regime harbored and supported Abdul Rahman Yasin, and Iraqi who mixed the chemicals for the 1993 World Trade Center attack, the first al Qaeda attack on U.S. soil.




That is quite a time-line. I wanted to keep that little summary and type it down before I returned the book to the library.

I am sure you have all viewed postings that give actual quotations of democrats about Saddam, Osama and Weapons of Mass Destruction et all. The Democratic party is currently undergoing an attempt to rewrite history. Anyone who stands in the way, like Joe Lieberman, will be punished. If Joe had ignored all the intelligence that he based his decisions on and started parroting the party line ("Bush Lied" "No Evidence" "No Link" "Bush's War") he would have a safe Senate seat today.

The Democrats are in denial, and that is a dangerous place to be. We live in a world where we have to make tough choices, and those choice have big consequences. We need competent leaders to face reality and work hard to come up with workable solutions to the problems that we face. Right now the Democrats are engaged in some delusional fantasy.

Maybe George Bush isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer. Maybe the Generals who put together the war plan could have done a better job. Maybe we shouldn't have gone in so quick. I support the war. I also realize that reasonable people can come to vastly different solutions given the same sets of facts. But as Senator Daniel Patrick Moynahan once said, “you are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.”

The facts are that Saddam's historical ties to terror are quite lengthy. Those facts don't vanish when you demonize George Bush. George Bush is not the root of all evil. He is not Hitler. He doesn't cause hurricanes. From climate change and hurricanes to terror attacks and gas prices George Bush is seen at the root cause by Democrats. Some of you may claim that I am making a straw man argument, but I see people all around me making these arguments every day. And they are educated, sophisticated professional people that have accomplished much in life. The moon-bat left has taken over the party.

And if you don't like George Bush and the republicans, what you need to do is have a reasonable alternative that has some founding in reality. "It is all Bush's fault" might make you feel better, but it isn't an ideology or a lasting framework to put this country on sound footing for the future.


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: The Connection [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5964427 - 08/14/06 10:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:eek:


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: The Connection [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5964629 - 08/14/06 11:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Is that all you got?

Look, people have conversations and meetings all the time. Even enemies. The real question is what went on at those meetings?
What agreements were made at the end of the day?

This is awfully thin gruel. Particularly at this late date.

Numerous sources have reported a 1993 nonaggression pact between Iraq and al Qaeda.

"Numerous sources"?

I seem to remember hearing about a "nonagression pact" between Hitler and Stalin during WWII. Guess what? They were enemies who ended up in a war with each other!

Don't kid yourself. Bin Laden was no friend of Saddam Hussein. Hussein ran a secular nation and Bin Laden desires an Islamic state for goodness sake!

Sorry, this is old news and no amount of heated rhetoric can breathe life back into its dessicated corpse despite desperate attempts by a few diehards.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: The Connection [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5964828 - 08/15/06 12:05 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:tinfoil:


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"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflineDinahTheCat
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Re: The Connection [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5965000 - 08/15/06 01:02 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"the consciousness of being at war, and therefore in danger, makes the handing-over of all power to a small caste seem the natural, unavoidable condition of survival."

THAT IS THE ONLY REASON WE ARE AT WAR WITH IRAQ

Alright "Jesus", WOT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? Im sorry for being rash, but seriously? Alright, not only are Bush's rhetorics are terrible, but everyday the US under the Bush regime makes everyday more and more like 1984. Oh, and its very odd you think the "Democrats" are "rewriting history", seems more like you got yourself mixed up with the wrong party: http://www.rinf.com/columnists/news/new-white-house-policy-advisor-caught-rewriting-history

And if you don't like George Bush and the republicans, what you need to do is have a reasonable alternative that has some founding in reality. "It is all Bush's fault" might make you feel better, but it isn't an ideology or a lasting framework to put this country on sound footing for the future. -No it really does not make me feel better, it makes me feel worst, because i know when i say it or think it, it is:

"We speak with former FBI translator, Sibel Edmonds, who was hired shortly after Sept. 11 to translate intelligence gathered over the previous year related to the 9/11 attacks. She says the FBI had information that an attack using airplanes was being planned before Sept. 11 and calls Condoleezza Rice's claim the White House had no specific information on a domestic threat or one involving planes "an outrageous lie." 911 WAS BUSH'S FAULT; he LET it happen. He could informed airlines about the upcoming crisis and tell them to stop flights..... why did he "ignore" this evidence of an attack?
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/31/1616221



Oh, and tell me, why did we invade Iraq? Surely there were WMDs of course, bah the inspectators were lying to us, and this is bollocks right? Great controversy emerged when no stockpiles of such weapons were found, leading to accusations that the United States, and in particular its President George W. Bush had deliberately inflated intelligence or lied about Iraq's weapons in order to justify an invasion of the country. The Iraq Survey Group reported in 2004 that "while a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991."

I do have a resolution for an alternative to Bush, but im sorry to inform you unlike Bush's admin., this one will not be "up in the clouds, in their castle", this one will be in on this thing called "reality", and being pratical. The most likely is the democrats actually do something and win next election with a good runner, and hopefully we are restored a couple straws of our precious freedom. My true solution, in my opinion, is less pratical, since america is the most capitalistic pig of a country in the world, where all the rich feed upon the poor and have stepped upon their faces for 250 years, there is no "free-market" anymore.... SOCIALISM: We need to be fair to everyone, life shouldnt exist for material wealth, we should strive to coexist in a place where dog doesnt eat dog; socialism is the end of greed, a structure that if used properly, can end poverty and hunger. We have the ablity to end world hunger, but man is greedy, so it is inevitable for the Bourgeoisie to maintain their power.


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"Sanity is not statistical."


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OfflineDinahTheCat
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Re: The Connection [Re: DinahTheCat]
    #5965033 - 08/15/06 01:13 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

woah, my point kinda got wobbly there, damn i hate jet lag ggg


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: The Connection [Re: DinahTheCat]
    #5966641 - 08/15/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

http://home.rochester.rr.com/ascarbrough/demquotes.html

Quote:

Democrat Quotes on Iraq Weapons of Mass Destruction (**and some other relevant quotes)


Click here to see a great slide show on this subject! The list goes on and on .......hypocrites, all


"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."
--Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
--Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by:
-- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
-Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
-- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Letter to President Bush, Signed by:
-- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), and others, Dec 5, 2001

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
-- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
-- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
-- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do"
-- Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
-- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
-- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
-- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

** "General Franks, you must be very, very careful. We have spoken with Saddam Hussein. He is a madman. He has WMD - biologicals, actually - and he will use them on your troops" Hozni Mubarek, President of Egypt - January 27, 2003 Source: American Soldier by General Tommy Franks


** "General, from reliable sources, I believe the Iraqis are hiding chemical and biological weapons" King Abdullah of Jordan - January 23, 2003 Source: American Soldier by General Tommy Franks

** "It's easy to fall in a trap that says, well, what do you think about the pre-emptive doctrine? You went into Iraq to pre-empt there and you found he doesn't have any WMD. I smile when people say something like that. Does that mean he didn't kill 300,000 of his own people? The fact that he didn't have WMD - does that mean that he didn't try to kill a sitting president of the United States? Does that mean he did not use WMD on his own people or against the Iranians? Does that mean that when 9/11 happened, he didn't say, ``Good!''?

My gracious, the fact that Saddam Hussein sits in prison today and that his sons are dead and all that is something that eases my ability to go to sleep each night. ... Saddam Hussein was threatening the United States of America. There's no question about that. I can prove it. The number of times that he shot at my young kids that were flying from Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, flying out of Turkey, enforcing United Nations sanctions - they were being shot at by the regime of Saddam Hussein every day. Now if a man will do that, if a leader will do that in the face of the world, in the face of the United Nations, would he not take additional actions to harm Americans?" Source - Tampa Tribune interview with General Tommy Franks, Aug. 8, 2004




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Tastes just like chicken

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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: The Connection [Re: DinahTheCat]
    #5966652 - 08/15/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That reply wasn't exactly to you Cat. I had referenced the dem quotes in the earlier article. There was a time when Democrats firmly believed and admitted those things.

As for your theory of Socialism being the solution, I am not sure that is the answer to the problem of islamo-facism that we are facing today.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: The Connection [Re: zorbman]
    #5966672 - 08/15/06 04:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Is that all you got?

Look, people have conversations and meetings all the time. Even enemies. The real question is what went on at those meetings?
What agreements were made at the end of the day?

This is awfully thin gruel. Particularly at this late date.

Numerous sources have reported a 1993 nonaggression pact between Iraq and al Qaeda.

"Numerous sources"?

I seem to remember hearing about a "nonagression pact" between Hitler and Stalin during WWII. Guess what? They were enemies who ended up in a war with each other!

Don't kid yourself. Bin Laden was no friend of Saddam Hussein. Hussein ran a secular nation and Bin Laden desires an Islamic state for goodness sake!

Sorry, this is old news and no amount of heated rhetoric can breathe life back into its dessicated corpse despite desperate attempts by a few diehards.




I think Saddam and Bin Laden were working together in the Sudan, and they even have telephone records of Chemical Ali. Stragely, most of our best evidence of them working together comes from the Clinton administration. (I still wonder what secrets were lost in Sandy Berger's pants, maybe Able Danger?)

Saddam also tried to kill an American Ex President. The Michael Moore left used to taunt the right saying that this war was for Dubya to get his revenge for that. But the fact remains he tried to kill the first George Bush. The clarity of a post 9/11 world dictates that you can't appease people like that. No government should be allowed to order hits on our Presidents. Not even Jimmy Carter.

And Saddam did give safe harbor to the original World Trade Center bombers, as well as Abu Nidal. Saddam's ties to terror are extraordinary.

You guys can ostrich up and stick your head in the sand, pretending bad guys don't exist. But the real world is quite different. Wake up.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Connection [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5966736 - 08/15/06 04:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Not even Jimmy Carter.




:lol:

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: The Connection [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5966844 - 08/15/06 05:17 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You guys can ostrich up and stick your head in the sand, pretending bad guys don't exist. But the real world is quite different. Wake up.




You can stretch it as far as you want, but saddam didn't have any more terror ties than saudi arabia, egypt and the UAE. Saddam's terror ties were embellished to draw public support for an invasion that was based on the lies from the beginning.

The only ones with their heads in the sand is people of your ilk, or in your case maybe I should say on the cross?  :rolleyes:


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflineDinahTheCat
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Re: The Connection [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5967693 - 08/15/06 09:25 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

JesusChrist said:
Quote:

zorbman said:
Is that all you got?

Look, people have conversations and meetings all the time. Even enemies. The real question is what went on at those meetings?
What agreements were made at the end of the day?

This is awfully thin gruel. Particularly at this late date.

Numerous sources have reported a 1993 nonaggression pact between Iraq and al Qaeda.

"Numerous sources"?

I seem to remember hearing about a "nonagression pact" between Hitler and Stalin during WWII. Guess what? They were enemies who ended up in a war with each other!

Don't kid yourself. Bin Laden was no friend of Saddam Hussein. Hussein ran a secular nation and Bin Laden desires an Islamic state for goodness sake!

Sorry, this is old news and no amount of heated rhetoric can breathe life back into its dessicated corpse despite desperate attempts by a few diehards.




I think Saddam and Bin Laden were working together in the Sudan, and they even have telephone records of Chemical Ali.  Stragely, most of our best evidence of them working together comes from the Clinton administration.  (I still wonder what secrets were lost in Sandy Berger's pants, maybe Able Danger?)

Saddam also tried to kill an American Ex President.  The Michael Moore left used to taunt the right saying that this war was for Dubya to get his revenge for that.  But the fact remains he tried to kill the first George Bush.  The clarity of a post 9/11 world dictates that you can't appease people like that.  No government should be allowed to order hits on our Presidents.  Not even Jimmy Carter.

So its alright for us to order hits on other countrie's leaders, such as fidel castro, we made dozens of assasination attempts on that guy, i mean comeon sadaam probably had a good reason too, wot if bush lost in a poker match with sadaam, and just hasnt paid him back? think about it,. :sad: :royalrainbow:


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: The Connection [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5967704 - 08/15/06 09:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Lies? He did work with Al Qaeda with weapons development in Sudan. He did try to assassinate an American President. He did defy the ceasefire agreement and shoot on US planes patrolling the no fly zone. He did harbor terrorists that attacked the World Trade Center. Ever heard of the World Trade Center? You thinking killing our Presidents is a good idea? Iraq was a state supporter or terrorism. Saddam was a genocidal and ruthless bastard. He was a threat to the free world, and he worked with numerous terrorists.

Why don't you replay Michael Moore showing people flying kites in Iraq. Then stick your head in the sand again. Joe Lieberman was right. All those other Democrats quoted above were right.

And if you are right that this whole thing was based on lies and deception, than I guess that deception came from Clinton-era democrats that went on the record about Saddam and Osama. The press used to believe it all too, until George Bush came along. I can show you articles of liberal news outlets showing the connection during the Clinton years. Even PBS was on the trail connecting Saddam with terrorism. Christ almighty, you dolts have a short memory.

This is not some big conspiracy contrived by George Bush. Trust me, he doesn't have the capacity to do it. And acting like this is just one big tall tale skirts reality. It ignores the history of genocide and terrorism in Iraq, and it ignores the history of consistent and successful attempts of Democrats to document it and point it out.

Joe Lieberman was right the first time and he stuck to his guns.

As for the possible and proposed solution that I asked for, the only thing we have on the table is "Socialism". Take that for what it is worth. Nobody else has a plan. For my own sake, I picture myself in the White House after 9/11. I don't know how we could fight this menace without actually having to really fight it. I don't think speeches or power points were going to do the trick. Maybe a catchy bumper sticker wouldn't do either. As witnessed last week at the airports, these fuckers are still out there and they want us dead.

I don't have all the answers. I will admit that. I don't know how you could fight terrorism without taking out people like Saddam that made Iraq into a state supporting terror machine. Now you can just deny that if that is your best argument, but he was knee deep in that shit. The record doesn't lie, people on the left just lie about the record. Read those Clinton era quotes above. Did the Governor of Texas make the Clinton administration make those connections? It can't all be George Bush's fault.

Please.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: The Connection [Re: DinahTheCat]
    #5967778 - 08/15/06 09:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

So its alright for us to order hits on other country's leaders, such as Fidel Castro, we made dozens of assassination attempts on that guy, i mean comeon sadaam probably had a good reason too, wot if bush lost in a poker match with sadaam, and just hasnt paid him back? think




I didn't OK the order to kill Castro. I have to confess I don't know enough about Castro at that time. He certainly doesn't have a great track record on human rights. Judging by that it probably wasn't a bad idea. You ever see rafts leaving the US going to Cuba? Ever wonder why you don't? Think.

And you justify having the State of Iraq putting a hit on an American President. Again, in a post 9/11 world, we had to take another look at where the next threat would be, as well as the source of current threats. Trying to kill an American President is an extreme terrorist action. And you seem to think that the American people should take such an attempt lying down. Amazing.

I have to confess that I would have rather assassinated Saddam than gone to war in Iraq. But people like you have complained about savages like Castro long enough that the country has decided attempts like that are bad policy. So we watch the genocide in Rwanda and the Sudan like spectators in a tragic comedy. If I was the man I would take those fuckers out. I would take out Mugabe too. So maybe I am a bit duplicitous by favoring killing heads of state while defending my own. But the first George Bush was a democratically elected President of a free people. He wasn't a savage and genocidal dictator. There is a difference, and anyone that tries to knock off any American President should be put on ice. That should be rule #1.


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OfflineDinahTheCat
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Re: The Connection [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5968897 - 08/16/06 09:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Alright, tell me this, should America always be the "Liberators of Democracy", and spread "democracy" around the world? So should we go to every single fucking country that has a governing body unsimilar to ours and level it, take out the leaders by bombing the shit out of them and causing a calamity of death to its innocent people and then "restart" the structure from scratch? Hey, why do you think that we went to Iraq, and not Iran? Iran actually has WMDs, and is more of a threat to the world or to the u.s. then Sadaam ever was. Let me ask you one other thing, do you think it's justified that thousands upon thousands of cilivians were killed in the name of "liberty", and in the "war on terrorism"? Over 3485 cilivians died in the October 7, 2001 thru March 2002 U.S. bombings over Afghanistan, for only a couple hundred who were involved with the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. Over 2834 coalition soldiers along with 2600 U.S. soldiers have been killed in the Iraq War, leaving Iraq still in the hands of chaos (where is this "democracy" in Iraq?) being in a worser state than under Sadaams regime. Hmmmm and what happened to the times when "WAR" was but an act of military use when approved by congress? This did not happen, but im am not surprised, for many things have not agreed with the constitution that are government has done, MANY! One thing would help me understand better though.... if only the officals would tell the mothers whose sons are now dead why we actually went to war, for what did their sons die for? In the name of freedom? That seems justified, dont you think?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Connection [Re: DinahTheCat]
    #5968981 - 08/16/06 09:50 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DinahTheCat said:
Alright, tell me this, should America always be the "Liberators of Democracy", and spread "democracy" around the world?




I am not going to address this situation specifically, but I think it is important to realize that every act of governance on this planet effects other governing bodies and its people. Each single government plays a role in the state of the world as a whole. I would not necessarily propose that this specific situation was addressed in the most effective manner, as it simply isn't a subject that I study into, but I think that one must consider such a perspective. Concerns need to be addressed, in an effective manner, to ensure the benefit of the world as a whole.

Quote:


So should we go to every single fucking country that has a governing body unsimilar to ours and level it, take out the leaders by bombing the shit out of them and causing a calamity of death to its innocent people  and then "restart" the structure from scratch?




It probably wouldn't be the best possible course of action. Almost every country has a government that is not exactly similar to our own. Some countries have governments that govern in distinctly different manners than our own, and yet we can still find a means to interact with them in beneficial ways for all concerned.

Besides, it is simply a question of our available resources, it isn't plausible to level every country and reconstruct it. :lol:

Quote:


Hey, why do you think that we went to Iraq, and not Iran?




Read above. :smirk:

Quote:


Iran actually has WMDs, and is more of a threat to the world or to the u.s. then Sadaam ever was.




I couldn't possibly think it is that simple. Diplomacy is rather delicate, international relations isn't a walk in the park, and it is entirely reasonable that it is not.

Quote:


Let me ask you one other thing, do you think it's justified that thousands upon thousands of cilivians were killed in the name of "liberty", and in the "war on terrorism"? Over 3485 cilivians died in the October 7, 2001 thru March 2002 U.S. bombings over Afghanistan, for only a couple hundred who were involved with the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. Over 2834 coalition  soldiers along with 2600 U.S. soldiers  have been killed in the Iraq War, leaving Iraq still in the hands of chaos (where is this "democracy" in Iraq?) being in a worser state than under Sadaams regime.




Every action has consequences. Humans have been engaging in war since the beginning of recorded history. The question of whether or not it is justified is present in each specific instance of war. I'm not exactly sure how much ground will be gained by posing the question this time around. :wink:

Quote:


Hmmmm and what happened to the times when "WAR" was but an act of military use when approved by congress?




Last I knew, Congress voted to approve the resolution for a war on Iraq.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/11/iraq.us/

Quote:


This did not happen




Where were you? Denial? :grin:

Quote:


One thing would help me understand better though.... if only the officals would tell the mothers whose sons are now dead why we actually went to war, for what did their sons die for? In the name of freedom? That seems justified, dont you think?




Why did they die? Because they enlisted in the Armed Forces, were sent to a foreign land, engaged in warfare, and died. What more could you expect? You sign up and that's the game you've approved yourself to play.

Perhaps if there was a draft, it would be a different circumstance, as those who would be dead did not volunteer to die.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Connection [Re: DinahTheCat]
    #5968991 - 08/16/06 09:55 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Over 3485 cilivians died in the October 7, 2001 thru March 2002 U.S. bombings over Afghanistan, for only a couple hundred who were involved with the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.




Source?

Quote:

leaving Iraq still in the hands of chaos (where is this "democracy" in Iraq?) being in a worser state than under Sadaams regime.




Source?

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: The Connection [Re: DinahTheCat]
    #5968994 - 08/16/06 09:57 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DinahTheCat said:
Hmmmm and what happened to the times when "WAR" was but an act of military use when approved by congress? This did not happen




Source?

:smirk:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 540
Loc: North America
Last seen: 16 years, 2 months
Re: The Connection [Re: JesusChrist]
    #5971211 - 08/16/06 09:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

He did work with Al Qaeda with weapons development in Sudan




He worked with US too, I don't see you calling for rumsfeld's head for helping saddam. Ever see the shaking hands picture? Or it's ok with you because saddam was a good guy then right?  :rolleyes:

You know I'd go through and debunk all your points but this has all been done before. What saddam was, was a washed up dictator who was trying to hold onto power by the skin of his teeth. You live in a fantasy world if you think he was a threat to anyone outside of iraq. Almost every point you made was embellished if not completely bullshit. Saudi arabia is 1000x more a state sponsor of terrorism than iraq ever was. You just buy into every turd that drops out of the US govts ass don't you? You even believe bush is a real christian too I bet.  :lol:

Please.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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OfflineDinahTheCat
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Re: The Connection [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5971317 - 08/16/06 10:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

1 Quote:
Over 3485 cilivians died in the October 7, 2001 thru March 2002 U.S. bombings over Afghanistan, for only a couple hundred who were involved with the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html (originally taken from Wikipedia)

2 leaving Iraq still in the hands of chaos (where is this "democracy" in Iraq?) being in a worser state than under Sadaams regime.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/06/AR2006060601396.html


3 DinahTheCat said:
Hmmmm and what happened to the times when "WAR" was but an act of military use when approved by congress? This did not happen

Now this, i should have looked up before, sorry that i said this, but for some reason i thought it was similar to agreements in the patriot act.

I suppose im with Rosettastoned, (you a tool fan?)
on the account that I too do not wish to debate any farther, since you all are slaves to the machine.


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