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Offlinewiggles
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #5973554 - 08/17/06 05:01 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The SKS is actually pretty nice to operate. It loads extremely smoothely. The ammunition is on little clips that you slide into a notch, press a tab, and push down. Thats all for loading. The downside is 99% of the ammunition for it is corrosive. After a day of shooting you need to break everything down and clean it, or else it'll be a hunk of rust within a few hours.

Accuracy wise, I love the SKS. You can tell that it's the AK's older and less fancy brother. Just using a pin sight I can get a 5 shot grouping within a dime's area. Its great. Also, out of a few thousand rounds I've yet to have it jam. It works like a dream.


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You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug, especially when its waving a razor sharp hunting knife in your eye.
Hunter S. Thompson


Edited by wiggles (08/17/06 05:03 PM)


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: wiggles]
    #5973668 - 08/17/06 05:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i've never heard anyone praise the SKS for its accuracy. it's a "people's rifle" and works very well for the job it was designed. for $250, sure, i'd get one, but i wouldn't use it for home defense. get down to physics and physiology and a shotgun definitely has a rifle beat for close range self defense.


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Offlinewiggles
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: wilshire]
    #5973718 - 08/17/06 05:51 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well note the fact I was talking about groupings at about 75 yards :wink: Its been prefectly accurate for me, in many cases more accurate than my 308 and my mauser. Granted I'm not sure what all work my grandfather may have done when he restored it. I know some of the internals had to be replaced because the gun had been laying at the bottom of a stream in Korea when he found it.

For actual home defense I'd have to say my 12 ga. shotgun. Its your standard over-under with a double beaded sight rail, and a fully adjustable choke. My grandfather custom built it for me when I used to do trap and skeet in tourneys, plus it has light rifling in the barrels for shooting slugs. We used to use it to blow up canteloupes at the range before they got mad and made us stop :frown:

To quote Kill Bill, I'm a surgeon with this shotgun.

Seriously though, for home defense a shotgun is the way to go if it comes down to a life or death situation.


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You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug, especially when its waving a razor sharp hunting knife in your eye.
Hunter S. Thompson


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InvisibleUSMCamputee
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: wiggles]
    #5973966 - 08/17/06 07:01 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The general consensus is the 12 gauge with 00 buck for HD purposes, but in all honesty it doesn't spread enough for it to meet its requirement normally demanded by most users (spray and pray is what most people do with the 12 ga and 00 buck). Because at 10 feet your pattern out of a smoothbore 18" barrel is going to be less than 20 inches. If you are going to have that much spread you might as well use a handgun or rifle. I do not doubt the 12 gauges destructiveness, but I think I am best served with the M4gery, as that is a weapon I have alot of experience using. Most shootings occur within 7 feet and are over in 3 shots, though. That is a range best suited for a handgun or edged tool.

Having said that the 12 gauge shotgun is the only gun in the world you can use to kill an 8 ounce dove or 200lb deer


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: USMCamputee]
    #5974085 - 08/17/06 07:44 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The general consensus is the 12 gauge with 00 buck for HD purposes, but in all honesty it doesn't spread enough for it to meet its requirement normally demanded by most users (spray and pray is what most people do with the 12 ga and 00 buck).

those people are being foolish, but that doesn't make a shotgun any less effective in the hands of those who know you still have to aim.

my requirements of a gun for home defense purposes are:

"does it have a higher probability of immediately stopping an intruder with one pull of the trigger than other weapons available?"

and

"does it have a lower probability of penetrating walls and killing my neighbors than other weapons available?"

the answer to both questions is a resounding "yes". therefore, shotgun it is. having a pattern that kills everything in a huge cone would be a bad thing with innocents around.

the shotgun reigns supreme for home defense. take your AR-15. that 5.56 is a varmint cartridge. it's not even legal to hunt deer with in most places because it's too small. it's got less close range stopping power, but more dangerous wall penetrating power, than a shotgun. i could say that about most rifles.


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InvisibleUSMCamputee
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: wilshire]
    #5974183 - 08/17/06 08:25 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Varmit cartridge? So, how many people have you shot with a 5.56 NATO?
I would really like to know your first hand real world experience with this cartridge. You aim for the sternum and head for a reason brother.
The 5.56 being underpowered is a myth, I never had an issue with it, nor any Marines I know. Army guys will be another story because they lack the riflemanship that is engrained into Marines.Seriously, if you do your part (sternum or headshots) it will do its. A copper wad running between 2,500 and 3,000 fps is going to cause an amazing wound channel and energy dump with the right projectile desing and composition. That projectile isn't USGI NATO spec stuff, none the less USGI NATO spec loads do a wonderful job.


I run 70 to 75 gr copper jacket bonded lead core projectiles, this is way better than USGI M855 OR M995 type ammo. It causes a greater temporary wound channel, deforms better and thus causes a better energy dump. Penetration with loadings in this weight range are going to be 15" or less in ballistic gelatin, which is ideal for human consumption.

I have used a rifle extensively in combat, I don't know what your experience is, but I am totally 100% positive the carbine is the end all in what a combat long are should be. For joe blow who can't hack the discipline of using a rifle in a high stress situation, the shotgun could be construed as a better choice.

The 12 gauge is good for breeching, and that was the primary use them for us in OIF. The 12 gauge does produce FAR MORE kenetic energy, but I can get 3 shots on target with two COM and one CNS and on to the next one in the time it takes you to shoot pump and begin your second shot. Will you need to further engage your previous target? Or is is safe to start your 2nd engagement? I have no doubts with the proven formula described above. That is just something that seperates an Infantryman from a civilian. I promise brother. Low recoil, high capacity. All you have to do is focus on your breathing, be calm, and keep them in the ten ring.


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InvisibleUSMCamputee
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: USMCamputee]
    #5974201 - 08/17/06 08:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Oh, memories, there is nothing like adrenaline. That "Oh my God, I am going to die" feeling.....wow, that is the greatest feeling on earth my brother! No greater rush.
I almost felt a dump of it now......

The 12 gauge is a great weapon, of which in terms of kinetic energy there is no equal for it in terms of small arms, but being a rifleman I can't deploy a 12 gauge worth a fuck brother..... I dont feel secure with one.
I am complacent with high capacity, low recoil, and fast follow up shots.


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Offlinewiggles
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: USMCamputee]
    #5976230 - 08/18/06 03:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Ahhh that explains it, you were a rifleman in infantry :smile:
I always wanted to go into the coast guard when i was a little kid for closed quarters combat/ship breeching. That is pretty much all 12 gauges, and the occasional ar-15 bushmaster (at least from what I'd seen).

Plus, I've shot enough barrels, fruit, etc, to believe that the ar-15 will do its job beautifully in the right hands. however in untrained hands, the shotgun is probobly going to be just as effective. While an 18 inch coan isn't going to help THAT much, its still 9 inches in every direction that would give the lay person who has never really shot before a chance to survive where it would leave a lay person with an ar-15 a missed shot, and ringing ears.

Speaking of ringing ears...
Yeah, that's the only problem I actually have ever had with AR's. The gas exhaust is right next to your ear, so you can't shoot without some kind of ear protection. That shit made my ears ring for 3 days with only 5 shots. Never in my entire life have I had that happen before, not even when I was watching my gramps work on an elephant gun for a big game hunter. Those thigns are deafening. Granted, I was holding it like a hunting rifle, and not like a combat rifle which probobly makes a marked difference ^^


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You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug, especially when its waving a razor sharp hunting knife in your eye.
Hunter S. Thompson


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InvisibleUSMCamputee
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: wiggles]
    #5976376 - 08/18/06 04:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, being a Rifleman in the Infantry you learn the weapons well, and they instill marksmanship in you pretty profoundly at the Island. I am glad I didn't get caught up in a M249 or M240. They are problematic, high maintenance like no other, and they are not very accurate. Of course most guys had problems in the sandbox due to simply over lubricating their weapon. I ran my M4 dry, no oil at all. I still had my share of problems but nothing like the people who insisted on lubing. I feel sorry for the person using that rifle now, because no lube is very hard on a weapon.

the USCG runs a tight ship. It is hard to get in on that action. Those Coast Guard guys get all the cool jobs. USMS, FBI, DEA, ICE, they pick up USCG people like mad.

Yes, the 5.56 has a serious shockwave, very very loud like no other catridge. It is from that intense velocity. You have 30,000PSI chamber pressure pushing a glorified 22. with a full length 20" barrel NATO rounds can break 3,600 FPS. Fucking loud. I have damaged hearing in my right ear because of it. I don't know if my drum got tore or what, but it doesn't hurt very often, only when I lay on my right side and my head rubs against a pillow, I hear a sound inside my ear sometimes, it sounds like a plastic bag is ripping or something, no, like when your skin rubs against leather furniture. I hear good, just not as good as I once did.

"gas exhaust" are you talking about the tube that pushes the bolt/carrier assembly inside the upper? It does redirect the gas back towards the shooter but that won't affect the noise perception anywhere near as much as the "ballistic crack" of the projectiles shear high velocity. You do get crap blown back into your face if you are lefthanded like I am, though. Damn I hated that, my right eye would always tear up, that drove me absolutely up the wall when I had to shoot more than a few rounds at one time.


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Offlinewiggles
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: USMCamputee]
    #5976743 - 08/18/06 06:50 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I thought there was a gas exhaust directly behind the chamber (by the bolt assembly) where excess gas was vented after the following round had been loaded into the chamber? I'm not entirely sure, I only busted down my friend's AR-15 once, so i'm far from an expert :smile: All's I know is there was an annoying burst of gas hitting me square in the mush with each shot fired. It sucked! That coupled with the noise made me realize that I'm not a fan of the ar-15, at least not until I learn how to hold a rifle combat-style, which apparently is a good bit different from how you hold a hunting rifle/shotgun :smile: Habit always leads me to trying to tuck the butt of the stock into my shoulder and its just too close for the noise produced.


--------------------


You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug, especially when its waving a razor sharp hunting knife in your eye.
Hunter S. Thompson


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InvisibleUSMCamputee
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: wiggles]
    #5977885 - 08/19/06 06:11 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

the buffer lies behind the bolt/bolt carrier assy. inside the stock. The gas port will be located above the chamber. Next time you look at it, complete safe the weapon, pull the charging handle back, hold in the rearmost position, press the bolt release button at the bottom to simulate an "empty mag" (which keeps the bolt rearward) and release the charging handle (unload, make sure its unloaded, make sure it is unloaded, keep the action open, make sure it is unloaded, and look inside the action, Above the chamber, you will see a little tube). This is the gas tube which the pressure is directed into the bolt to push it back, the buffer (a spring and aluminum tube) in the stock pushes it forward. I use a piston driven upper because they are scary reliable. Direct impingement, AKA the conventional gas operation, can be troublesome. Overall Stoner did good with the m16 family of rifles. However, piston driven is the way to go. You can get a a Leitner Weise for under 2k. The HK416 upper is supposed to hit the civilian market, but I have heard the cost could be as high as 5k. FOR JUST AN UPPER. You can buy 6 complete A2s (now that flattops are the new thing) for that kind of coin.
The lower is just fine the way it is. Man, with a piston driven upper, you can shoot thousands upon thousands upon thousands of rounds with out ever even having to clean your rifle. I am sitting at about a 7k roundcount, and I know this rifle will go 7k more without a single hitch. You get what you pay for.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: USMCamputee]
    #5979641 - 08/19/06 08:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Varmit cartridge?

indeed.

"The .223 Remington was developed as an enlarged and higher velocity version of the .222 Remington, which had existed in the 1950's as a varmint cartridge. The .223 Remington was developed specifically for the Armalite AR-15, which later became the U.S. military rifle M-16.

The .223 Remington is one of the most common rifle cartridges in use in the United States, being widely used in two types of rifles: (1) varmint hunting rifles, most of which are bolt action and commonly have 1-in-12 rifling twist suitable for bullets between 40 and 55 grains, and (2) semiautomatic rifles such as the AR-15 and the Ruger Mini-14, which commonly have twist rates of 1-in-9 suitable for bullets from 50 to 75 grains."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington

it's certainly deadly against humans, but throwing over an ounce of lead at a person from a shotgun will stop them more quickly.

immediately stopping a commited attacker requires disrupting either the nervous or motor-skeletal system. hitting a blood rich organ or artery will kill, but not for several minutes. the skull, spinal column, hips, or a femur need to be hit for a reliable one-shot stop. all of these are hard objects which aren't really impressed by the hydrostatic shock wave caused by a rifle bullet. it doesn't matter if they're hit by a fast moving rifle bullet or slow moving shotgun pellet, they just need to be hit. your chances are greater with a shotgun.

rifles are good when you're fighing at longer ranges or your targets are taking cover. when they're coming up the stairs of your home, a shotgun it is. so dump that gopher gun and practice up on the traditional and effective weapon for home defense - the scattergun.  :tongue:


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InvisibleUSMCamputee
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: wilshire]
    #5980471 - 08/19/06 11:42 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Hey, if a 12 gauge held 30 rounds and had no recoil like a 5.56, I would take it over the M4 any day. .223 chamer pressure is going to be in the 12k to 15k PSI range, that is pretty weak. NATO pressure is TWICE that, which increases velocity. THE .223 and 5.56 NATO are the same in terms of catridge demensions, projectile diameter, but the NATO round is loaded to a much higher velocity. Still it has no recoil compared to the 12 gauge.
The 12 gauge is the most destructive small arms catridge around. I will not deny that. However, the recoil, and low capacity make it impractical for engaging in a target rich environment.
NATO FMJ 5.56 stuff isn't the best performing rifle catridge I will agree, however, a bonded jacket hollow point in the 70 to 75 grain range has a very impressive energy dump and temporary wound channel.
(Our troops can not use this stuff, although I have heard SF guys do) Velocity combinded with the JHP and we are talking a TWC that is incredibly destructive to tissue and organs, even out of a carbine length barrel.

If I need something for closer range I am comfortable with the Glock model 20. It holds 16 rounds of 10mm and I use Double Taps 215gr cast lead loads. I run an aftermarket KKM barrel, since the projectiles are lead. This thing is on par with a .44 mag, and it holds 16 rounds. I would rather have either of these over the 12 gauge. The 12 gauge just doesn't have a high enough cyclic rate, too much recoil, and a 12 gauge will hold between 5 and 8 shells, depending on make, model and configuration.

With all of this love for the all mighty gauge that can level a house with one trigger pull, peel the paint off of the neighbors house and give your family a permanant orange afro, I have a 12 gauge I never use, anyone want to buy it? Practically new remington, nickel plated...


Edited by USMCamputee (08/20/06 11:35 PM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: wiggles]
    #5999707 - 08/26/06 07:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

wiggles said:
The SKS is actually pretty nice to operate. It loads extremely smoothely. The ammunition is on little clips that you slide into a notch




mine takes a magazine asopposed to stripper clips, mine is also machined steel instead of stamped metal


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: USMCamputee]
    #5999713 - 08/26/06 07:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

USMCamputee said:
Oh, memories, there is nothing like adrenaline. That "Oh my God, I am going to die" feeling.....wow, that is the greatest feeling on earth my brother! No greater rush.
I almost felt a dump of it now......





wow... seek help, I've been there, done that and dont want the t-shirt


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: What is your defensive toolset? [Re: USMCamputee]
    #5999724 - 08/26/06 07:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

USMCamputee said:
Hey, if a 12 gauge held 30 rounds and had no recoil like a 5.56





I can shoot a 12guage with one hand, it's recoil isnt that heavy


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