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evilchipmunk
All your nutsare belong tome.

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 268
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: Swami]
#2768556 - 06/06/04 09:43 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Working backwards..
Quote:
How can an event be both improbable and necessary? Contradiction?
Yes, the chances of everything happening the way they have seems incredibly small. But consider this- since energy can't be created/destroyed, it remains timeless, and infinite in that respect. In the instance of infinity, 'chance' becomes completely inconsequential. If there is ANY possibility of energy acting a certain way, no matter how insanely minute, it becomes inevitable. When seemingly 'improbable' events are in fact unavoidable, they become 'necessary'. Does that make sense?
Quote:
Insinuating there could be multiple to infinite amounts of outcomes, that would bring in the neccessity of an omnipotent being alone, since it would have to deal with something "holding" us to this existance.
Hmm.. I don't quite get what you mean. I would say that yes, there are infinite levels of outcomes due to infinitely minute variables, but at the same time everything works within certain boundaries, like the law of energy conservation. I don't see why this would need some sort of 'outside' influence 'holding' us in place, it's simply a natural balance between order and chaos. Why does everything have to be black or white? Everything is not completely chaotic, nor is it completely organized and predictable.
I think it's strange that so many people think of god as an omnipotent, omnipresent consciousness, and yet still seem to think of it as a puppeteer with a marionette, controlling events devised for some grand mystical scheme that our human minds are too simple to understand.
I prefer to think that god -is- the universe.. That all energy (matter, light, spiritual energy, etc.) is conscious to some degree, and the collective consciousness of that energy is fully aware of itself. Not that I have proof or anything, but I think it's a bit more logical to think that the universe has always existed, rather than having been 'created' from nothingness by some 'detached' consciousness.
O'course.. That's just me. ;P Each to his own.
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain



Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: evilchipmunk]
#2768600 - 06/06/04 10:08 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Imagine what this conversation would look like if we stopped believing that we are some external element which suddenly appeared "inside" a previously unfolding event called the physical universe. We take this view to be self-evident, but there is no reason to go on assuming it to be true at all.
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Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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evilchipmunk
All your nutsare belong tome.

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 268
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: Ped]
#2768626 - 06/06/04 10:23 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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In the words of Alan Watts, we did not come into this world, but out of it.
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fict
phi
Registered: 03/13/04
Posts: 64
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: evilchipmunk]
#2768856 - 06/06/04 12:16 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
evilchipmunk said: Working backwards..
Quote:
How can an event be both improbable and necessary? Contradiction?
Yes, the chances of everything happening the way they have seems incredibly small. But consider this- since energy can't be created/destroyed, it remains timeless, and infinite in that respect. In the instance of infinity, 'chance' becomes completely inconsequential. If there is ANY possibility of energy acting a certain way, no matter how insanely minute, it becomes inevitable. When seemingly 'improbable' events are in fact unavoidable, they become 'necessary'. Does that make sense?
Quote:
Insinuating there could be multiple to infinite amounts of outcomes, that would bring in the neccessity of an omnipotent being alone, since it would have to deal with something "holding" us to this existance.
Hmm.. I don't quite get what you mean. I would say that yes, there are infinite levels of outcomes due to infinitely minute variables, but at the same time everything works within certain boundaries, like the law of energy conservation. I don't see why this would need some sort of 'outside' influence 'holding' us in place, it's simply a natural balance between order and chaos. Why does everything have to be black or white? Everything is not completely chaotic, nor is it completely organized and predictable.
I think it's strange that so many people think of god as an omnipotent, omnipresent consciousness, and yet still seem to think of it as a puppeteer with a marionette, controlling events devised for some grand mystical scheme that our human minds are too simple to understand.
I prefer to think that god -is- the universe.. That all energy (matter, light, spiritual energy, etc.) is conscious to some degree, and the collective consciousness of that energy is fully aware of itself. Not that I have proof or anything, but I think it's a bit more logical to think that the universe has always existed, rather than having been 'created' from nothingness by some 'detached' consciousness.
O'course.. That's just me. ;P Each to his own.
---
1. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that chance becomes inconsequential in the instance of infinity. Energy can not be created or destroyed, but mass can be converted to energy and vice-versa. Why does it then follow that improbable events are therefore necessary?
... I mean, there's a non-zero probability that all the particles of my body will be spontaneously transported to hawaii in precisely three seconds. Three seconds later . . . I'm still hangin' out, Not in hawaii.
2. Does the world abide by physical laws, or do the laws of physics merely provide a model by which the world can be described? Since we don't have a grand-unifying theory, then yes, we'll have to go with a little column-a, a little column-b. According the the causal closure thesis, every cause is an event, and every event is a cause, and therefore, everything that has happened and everything that ever will happen was predetermined by starting conditions. Quantum physics tells a different story, in which everything is underdetermined and random.
Maybe someday we'll resolve the differences between newtonian and quantum physics. Until then, I will have some incommenserable descrepencies between my beliefs and the things I'm willing to defend logically.
... or maybe i have that grand unifying theory all worked out and i just don't wanna tell you 
peace.
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Strumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: EgoTripping]
#2769074 - 06/06/04 01:45 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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circles and lines. Can't forget the wiggley lines
-------------------- Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me. In addition: SHPONGLE
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evilchipmunk
All your nutsare belong tome.

Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 268
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: fict]
#2769242 - 06/06/04 02:50 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
1. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that chance becomes inconsequential in the instance of infinity. Energy can not be created or destroyed, but mass can be converted to energy and vice-versa. Why does it then follow that improbable events are therefore necessary?
2. Does the world abide by physical laws, or do the laws of physics merely provide a model by which the world can be described? Since we don't have a grand-unifying theory, then yes, we'll have to go with a little column-a, a little column-b. According the the causal closure thesis, every cause is an event, and every event is a cause, and therefore, everything that has happened and everything that ever will happen was predetermined by starting conditions. Quantum physics tells a different story, in which everything is underdetermined and random.
It's probably a little haughty that any human should say this about anything, but it seems to me (and hopefully I'm not the only one) that laws such as causality and energy conservation are pretty much an indomitable constant in the universe. Though it gives off an air of randomness, causality is one of the laws which determine what is possible and what is not. If the law does not allow a scenario (every particle of your body instantly transporting to Hawaii, for instance), that scenario becomes zero-probability.
Can't something be randomly predetermined? If fate were something solid and predictable, it could be changed and therefore would no longer be fate. ;P Catch 22.
Quote:
... or maybe i have that grand unifying theory all worked out and i just don't wanna tell you 
Awe.. shucks.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: evilchipmunk]
#2769357 - 06/06/04 03:20 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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We need to determine a date and time to all partake of some holy (and yet, legal ) substance and then continue this conversation.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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fict
phi
Registered: 03/13/04
Posts: 64
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: evilchipmunk]
#2769552 - 06/06/04 04:39 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
evilchipmunk said: It's probably a little haughty that any human should say this about anything, but it seems to me (and hopefully I'm not the only one) that laws such as causality and energy conservation are pretty much an indomitable constant in the universe. Though it gives off an air of randomness, causality is one of the laws which determine what is possible and what is not. If the law does not allow a scenario (every particle of your body instantly transporting to Hawaii, for instance), that scenario becomes zero-probability. Can't something be randomly predetermined? If fate were something solid and predictable, it could be changed and therefore would no longer be fate. ;P Catch 22.
1. As far as physical laws and causation are concerned -- No, you're not alone in believing that the world is dictated by indominatable physical laws, or believing that the models by which we understand the world are the way that the world really is. Scientific realism is not, however, without its problems. One classic counter-example to scientific realism lies in the copernican revolution. Prior to the copernican revolution, it was widely believed and accepted that the Earth was the center of the solar system... There is no reason to believe that the Sun is, in fact, the center of the solar system. The Ptolemaic model became obsolete only because of the complex calculations required in order to account for planets' retrograde motion, and the copernican model was simpler, more pragmatic. The position of anything in space-time can only be referenced by the position of any other object... no object has any given absolute position. Ptolemy wasn't *wrong*, per se, and it's not the case that Copernicas was right -- it's simply a matter of pragmaticism. Now, no one in their right mind considers such matters in their daily life. But physical laws are merely based on induction, observation, and the assumption that nature will behave uniformly through time. There's no way around it... These are merely pragmatic assumptions based on induction. The problem of induction... it's a big one. 2. On pre-determination and casuation -- If fate were something solid and predictable, couldn't it be changed? No. If we were to build a supercomputer capable of storing and calculating every conceivable variable in existence, what would be left out? The computer. And if we decide to plug in the variables for the computer, we would then need to plug in the variables plugging the variables into the computer. And then plug in the variables for plugging in the variables for plugging in the variables ... ad infinitum, infinite regress. Frustrating, eh? But these are fascinating topics, and the problem of induction is still a widely debated topic in the philosophy of science. I think I may have mentioned it earlier, but keep in mind that the things I believe are not necessarily the things I am willing to defend. I might be playing devil's advocate. Maybe. ~peace
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fict
phi
Registered: 03/13/04
Posts: 64
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: Swami]
#2770124 - 06/06/04 08:50 PM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: We need to determine a date and time to all partake of some holy (and yet, legal ) substance and then continue this conversation.
I heartily agree.
And it's a wonderful excuse to play with a fractal explorer without feeling like a cheeseball. Fractals are wonderful and beautiful examples of how minute changes to starting conditions can effect the system as a whole. rock.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: fict]
#2770708 - 06/07/04 01:16 AM (19 years, 8 months ago) |
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And it's a wonderful excuse to play with a fractal explorer without feeling like a cheeseball.
Are you talking about the kind that is a clump of cheap cheddar rolled in walnut pieces?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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DistortedEyes
hello


Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 875
Loc: uk
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: Swami]
#5953801 - 08/11/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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that would either taste really really bad or surprisingly good.
-------------------- Sometimes when I read threads visions of men sword fighting with their genitalia run through my head. - sadspacemonkey
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PsiTripper

Registered: 09/09/04
Posts: 104
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: Circles: The patterns of Life? [Re: DistortedEyes]
#5954759 - 08/11/06 07:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I recently started a thread similar to this one in some ways. I think the title of your post sums it up pretty well. I really feel that the foundation of everything is the circle.
-------------------- Music!
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