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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Cause and Effect
    #5953875 - 08/11/06 03:33 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Is that a definate law to the universe?


That being said, I forgot to elaborate on where I'm coming from. Cause and effect, if that isnt a definate law, then that would mean that things would be irrational right? Like, things could spontaneously happen for no reason at all. Like, randomly with no possible reason other than randomness, something could spontaneously combust. My desk could suddenly no longer be infront of me with no reason. Just dissapeared. It technically could still happen, but there would have to be a logical explanation for it, right? Like, maybe it got sucked into a worm hole or something right infront of me and I didnt know waht happened, it just did. It happened for a cause, and that cause is the worm hole sucked it up.


Edited by KidgardFromSRQ (08/11/06 03:40 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5954157 - 08/11/06 05:25 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, Cause & Effect is a central and required aspect of our Universe. Without it, there would be no logic or reason behind anything happening - ever.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: trendal]
    #5954167 - 08/11/06 05:30 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

ok, so then how can matter have always been there? it had to of been created some how, correct?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5954208 - 08/11/06 05:51 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"matter" came into existence shortly after the Universe came into existence.

Unfortunately science is, at the current time, unable to speculate as to what "existed" before this universe.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
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OfflineGomp
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: trendal]
    #5954238 - 08/11/06 06:01 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

What if the cause and the effect were the same factor?

One thing causing the effect of itself? ..vice versa!?

:thumbup:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: Gomp]
    #5954243 - 08/11/06 06:03 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Every "effect" is also a "cause", because it will cause something else to happen after it happens.

Likewise, every "cause" is also an "effect"...because something had to cause the cause to happen :wink:


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: trendal]
    #5954487 - 08/11/06 07:06 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)



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Offlinejungjedi
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #5955056 - 08/11/06 11:19 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

there are certain thought experiments that go beyond cause and effect
and puts things in terms of quantum ENTANGLEMENTS

Bell's theorem is the most famous legacy of the late John Bell. It is notable for showing that the predictions of quantum mechanics (QM) differ from those of intuition. It is simple and elegant, and touches upon fundamental philosophical issues that relate to modern physics. In its simplest form, Bell's theorem states:

No physical theory of local hidden variables can ever reproduce all of the predictions of quantum mechanics.
This theorem has even been called "the most profound in science" (Stapp, 1975). Bell's seminal 1965 paper was entitled "On the Einstein Podolsky Rosen paradox". The Einstein Podolsky Rosen paradox (EPR paradox) assumes local realism, the intuitive notion that particle attributes have definite values independent of the act of observation and that physical effects have a finite propagation speed. Bell showed that local realism leads to a requirement for certain types of phenomena that are not present in quantum mechanics. This requirement is called Bell's inequality.

Different authors subsequently derived similar inequalities, collectively termed Bell inequalities, that also assume local realism. That is, they assume that each quantum-level object has a well defined state that accounts for all its measurable properties and that distant objects do not exchange information faster than the speed of light. These well defined properties are often called hidden variables, the properties that Einstein posited when he stated his famous objection to quantum mechanics: "[God] does not play dice."

The inequalities concern measurements made by observers (often called Alice and Bob) on entangled pairs of particles that have interacted and then separated. Hidden variable assumptions limit the correlation of subsequent measurements of the particles. Bell discovered that under quantum mechanics this correlation limit may be violated. Quantum mechanics lacks local hidden variables associated with individual particles, and so the inequalities do not apply to it. Instead, it predicts correlation due to quantum entanglement of the particles, allowing their state to be well defined only after a measurement is made on either particle. That restriction agrees with the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, one of the most fundamental concepts in quantum mechanics.

Per Bell's theorem, either quantum mechanics or local realism is wrong. Experiments were needed to determine which is correct, but it took many years and many improvements in technology to perform them.

Bell test experiments to date overwhelmingly show that the inequalities of Bell's theorem are violated. This provides empirical evidence against local realism and demonstrates that some of the "spooky action at a distance" suggested by the famous Einstein Podolsky Rosen (EPR) thought experiment do in fact occur. They are also taken as positive evidence in favor of QM. The principle of special relativity is saved by the no-communication theorem, which proves that the observers cannot use the inequality violations to communicate information to each other faster than the speed of light.

John Bell's papers examined both John von Neumann's 1932 proof of the incompatibility of hidden variables with QM and Albert Einstein and his colleagues' seminal 1935 paper on the subject.

Contents [hide]
1 Importance of the theorem
2 Bell's thought experiment
3 Description of Bell's theorem
4 Statement of Bell's theorem
5 Comparison to quantum mechanical prediction
6 Bell test experiments
7 Implications of violation of Bell's inequality
8 Original Bell's inequality
9 Notable quotes
10 See also
11 Further reading
12 References
13 External links



[edit]
Importance of the theorem
After EPR, quantum mechanics was left in the unsatisfactory position that it was either incomplete in the sense that it failed to account for some elements of physical reality, or it violated the principle of finite propagation speed of physical effects. In the EPR thought experiment, two observers, now commonly referred to as Alice and Bob, perform independent measurements of spin on a pair of electrons, prepared at a source in a special state called a spin singlet state. It was a conclusion of EPR that once Alice measured spin in one direction (e.g. on the x axis), Bob's measurement in that direction was determined with certainty, whereas immediately before Alice's measurement, Bob's outcome was only statistically determined. Thus, either the spin in each direction is not an element of physical reality or the effects travel from Alice to Bob instantly.

In QM predictions were formulated in terms of probabilities, for example, the probability that an electron might be detected in a particular region of space, or the probability that it would have spin up or down. However, there still remained the idea that the electron had a definite position and spin, and that QM's failing was its inability to predict those values precisely. The possibility remained that some yet unknown, but more powerful theory, such as a hidden variable theory, might be able to predict these quantities exactly, while at the same time also being in complete agreement with the probabilistic answers given by QM. If a hidden variables theory were correct, the hidden variables were not described by QM and thus QM would be an incomplete theory.

The desire for a local realist theory was based on two ideas: first, that objects have a definite state that determines the values of all other measurable properties such as position and momentum and second, that (as a result of special relativity) effects of local actions such as measurements cannot travel faster than the speed of light. In the formalization of local realism used by Bell, the predictions of a theory result from the application of classical probability theory to an underlying parameter space. By a simple (but clever) argument based on classical probability he then showed that correlations between measurements are bounded in a way that is violated by QM.

Bell's theorem seemed to seal the fate of those that had local realist hopes for QM.

[edit]
Bell's thought experiment
Bell considered a setup in which two observers, Alice and Bob, perform independent measurements on a system S prepared in some fixed state. Each observer has a detector with which to make measurements. On each trial, Alice and Bob can independently choose between various detector settings. Alice can choose a detector setting a to obtain a measurement A(a) and Bob can choose a detector setting b to measure B(b). After repeated trials Alice and Bob collect statistics on their measurements and correlate the results.

There are two key assumptions in Bell's analysis: (1) each measurement reveals an objective physical property of the system (2) a measurement taken by one observer has no effect on the measurement taken by the other.

In the language of probability theory, repeated measurements of system properties can be regarded as repeated sampling of random variables. One might expect measurements by Alice and Bob to be somehow correlated with each other: the random variables are assumed not to be independent, but linked in some way. Nonetheless, there is a limit to the amount of correlation one might expect to see. This is what the Bell inequality expresses.

A version of the Bell inequality appropriate for this example is given by John Clauser, Michael Horne, Abner Shimony and R. A. Holt, and is called the CHSH form:


where C denotes correlation.

[edit]
Description of Bell's theorem
Continuing on from the situation explored in the EPR paradox, consider that again a source produces paired particles, one sent to Alice and another to Bob. When Alice and Bob measure the spin of the particles in the same axis, they will get identical results; when Bob measures at right angles to Alice's measurements they will get the same results 50% of the time, the same as a coin toss. This is expressed mathematically by saying that in the first case, their results have a correlation of 1, or perfect correlation; in the second case they have a correlation of 0; no correlation. (A correlation of -1 would indicate getting opposite results the whole time.)

So far, this can be explained by positing local hidden variables; each pair of particles is sent out with instructions on how to behave when measured in the x axis and the z axis, generated randomly. Clearly, if the source only sends out particles whose instructions are correlated for each axis, then when Alice and Bob measure on the same axis, they are bound to get identical results; but (if all four possible pairs of instructions are generated equally) when they measure on perpendicular axes they will see zero correlation.


Illustration of Bell test for spin 1/2 particles. Source produces spin singlet pair, one particle sent to Alice another to Bob. Each performs one of the two spin measurements.
Now consider that B rotates their apparatus (by 45 degrees, say) relative to that of Alice. Rather than calling the axes xA, etc., henceforth we will call Alice's axes a and a', and Bob's axes b and b'. The hidden variables (supposing they exist) would have to specify a result in advance for every possible direction of measurement. It would not be enough for the particles to decide what values to take just in the direction of the apparatus at the time of leaving the source, because either Alice or Bob could rotate their apparatus by a random amount any time after the particles left the source.

Next, we define a way to "keep score" in the experiment. Alice and Bob decide that they will record the directions they measured the particles in, and the results they got; at the end, they will tally up, scoring +1 for each time they got the same result and -1 for an opposite result - except that if Alice measured in a and Bob measured in b', they will score +1 for an opposite result and -1 for the same result. It turns out (see the mathematics below) that however the hidden variables are contrived, Alice and Bob cannot average more than 50% overall. (For example, suppose that for a particular value of the hidden variables, the a and b directions are perfectly correlated, as are the a' and b' directions. Then, since a and a' are at right angles and so have zero correlation, a' and b have zero correlation, as do a and b'. The unusual "scoring system" is designed in part to ensure this holds for all possible values of the hidden variables.)

The question is now whether Alice and Bob can score higher if the particles behave as predicted by quantum mechanics. It turns out they can; if the apparatuses are rotated at 45¡ã to each other, then the predicted score is 71%. In detail: when observations at an angle of ¦È are made on two entangled particles, the predicted correlation between the measurements is cos¦È. In one explanation, the particles behave as if when Alice makes a measurement (in direction x, say), Bob's particle instantaneously switches to take that direction. When Bob makes a measurement, the correlation (the averaged-out value, taking +1 for the same measurement and -1 for the opposite) is equal to the length of the projection of the particle's vector onto his measurement vector; by trigonometry, cos¦È. ¦È is 45¡ã, and cos¦È is , for all pairs of axes except (a,b') ¨C where they are 135¡ã and ¨C but this last is taken in negative in the agreed scoring system, so the overall score is ; 0.707, or 71%. If experiment shows - as it appears to - that the 71% score is attained, then hidden variable theories cannot be correct; not unless information is being transmitted between the particles faster than light, or the experimental design is flawed.

[edit]
Statement of Bell's theorem
In this article correlation of observables X, Y is defined as


This is non-normalized form of the correlation coefficient considered in statistics (see Quantum correlation).

In order to formulate Bell's theorem, we formalize local realism as follows:

There is a probability space ¦« and the observed outcomes by both Alice and Bob result by random sampling of the parameter .
The values observed by Alice or Bob are functions of the local detector settings and the hidden parameter only. Thus
Value observed by Alice with detector setting a is A(a,¦Ë)
Value observed by Bob with detector setting b is B(b,¦Ë)
Implicit in assumption 1) above, the hidden parameter space ¦« has a probability measure ¦Ñ and the expectation of a random variable X on ¦« with respect to ¦Ñ is written


where for accessibility of notation we assume that the probability measure has a density.

Bell's theorem. The CHSH inequality (1) holds under the hidden variables assumptions above.

For simplicity, let us first assume the observed values are +1 or −1; we remove this assumption in Remark 1 below.

Let . Then at least one of


is 0. Thus




and therefore






Remark 1. The correlation inequality (1) still holds if the variables A(a,¦Ë), B(b,¦Ë) are allowed to take on any real values between -1, +1. Indeed, the relevant idea is that each summand in the above average is bounded above by 2. This is easily seen to be true in the more general case:






To justify the upper bound 2 asserted in the last inequality, without loss of generality, we can assume that


In that case


.
Remark 2. Though the important component of the hidden parameter ¦Ë in Bell's original proof is associated with the source and is shared by Alice and Bob, there may be others that are associated with the separate detectors, these others being independent. This argument was used by Bell in 1971, and again by Clauser and Horne in 1974, to justify a generalisation of the theorem forced on them by the real experiments, in which detector were never 100% efficient. The derivations were given in terms of the averages of the outcomes over the local detector variables. The formalisation of local realism was thus effectively changed, replacing A and B by averages and retaining the symbol ¦Ë but with a slightly different meaning. It was henceforth restricted (in most theoretical work) to mean only those components that were associated with the source.

However, with the extension proved in Remark 1, CHSH inequality still holds even if the instruments themselves contain hidden variables. In that case, averaging over the instrument hidden variables gives new variables:


on ¦« which still have values in the range [-1, +1] to which we can apply the previous result.

[edit]
Comparison to quantum mechanical prediction
To apply Bell's theorem we will show that quantum mechanics makes a prediction that violates a "Bell inequality" in the setup considered in the EPR thought experiment. In order to do this, we first need to show how to compute correlations of quantum mechanical observables.

In the usual quantum mechanical formalism, observables X, Y are represented as self-adjoint operators on a Hilbert space. To compute the correlation, assume that X, Y are represented by matrices in a finite dimensional space and that X, Y commute; this special case suffices for our purposes below. We then use the von Neumann measurement postulate: a series of measurements of an observable X on a series of identical systems in state ¦Õ produces a distribution of real values in which the probability of observing ¦Ë is


(where EX(¦Ë) is the eigenspace corresponding to ¦Ë) and the system state immediately after the measurement is


From this, we can show that the correlation of commuting observables X, Y in a pure state ¦× is


We apply this fact in the context of the EPR paradox. The measurements performed by Alice and Bob are spin measurements for an electron. Alice can choose between two detector settings labelled a and a¡ä; these settings correspond to measurement of spin along the z or the x axis. Bob can choose between two detector settings labelled b and b¡ä; these correspond to measurement of spin along the z¡ä or x¡ä axis, where the x¡ä ¨C z¡ä coordinate system is rotated 45o relative to the x ¨C z coordinate system. The spin observables are represented by the 2 ¡Á 2 self-adjoint matrices:



These are the Pauli spin matrices normalized so that the corresponding eigenvalues are +1, −1. As is customary, we denote the eigenvectors of Sx by


Let ¦Õ be the spin singlet state for a pair of electrons discussed in the EPR paradox. This is a specially constructed state described by the following vector in the tensor product


Now let us apply the CHSH formalism to the measurements that can be performed by Alice and Bob.


Illustration of Bell test for spin 1/2 particles. Source produces spin singlet pair, one particle sent to Alice another to Bob. Each performs one of the two spin measurements.



The operators B(b'), B(b) correspond to Bob's spin measurements along x¡ä and z¡ä. Note that the A operators commute with the B operators, so we can apply our calculation for the correlation. In this case, we can show that the CHSH inequality fails. In fact, a straightforward calculation shows that


and


so that


Thus, if the quantum mechanical formalism is correct, then the system consisting of a pair of entangled electrons cannot satisfy the principle of local realism. Note that is indeed the upper bound for quantum mechanics, it's called Tsirelson's bound. The operators giving this maximal value are always isomorphic to the Pauli matrices.

The next sections consider experimental tests to see whether the Bell inequalities required by local realism hold up to the empirical evidence.

[edit]
Bell test experiments
Main article: Bell test experiments.

Bell's inequalities are tested by "coincidence counts" from a Bell test experiment such as the optical one shown in the diagram. Pairs of particles are emitted as a result of a quantum process, analysed with respect to some key property such as polarisation direction, then detected. The setting (orientations) of the analysers are selected by the experimenter.

Bell test experiments to date overwhelmingly suggest that Bell's inequality is violated. Indeed, a table of Bell test experiments performed prior to 1986 is given in 4.5 of (Redhead, 1987). Of the thirteen experiments listed, only two reached results contradictory to quantum mechanics; moreover, according to the same source, when the experiments were repeated, "the discrepancies with QM could not be reproduced".


Scheme of a "two-channel" Bell test
The source S produces pairs of "photons", sent in opposite directions. Each photon encounters a two-channel polariser whose orientation (a or b) can be set by the experimenter. Emerging signals from each channel are detected and coincidences of four types (++, --, +- and -+) counted by the coincidence monitor.Nevertheless, the issue is not conclusively settled. According to Shimony's 2004 Stanford Encyclopedia overview article

"Most of the dozens of experiments performed so far have favored Quantum Mechanics, but not decisively because of the 'detection loopholes' or the 'communication loophole.' The latter has been nearly decisively blocked by a recent experiment and there is a good prospect for blocking the former."
[edit]
Implications of violation of Bell's inequality
The phenomenon of quantum entanglement that is implied by violation of Bell's inequality is just one element of quantum physics which cannot be represented by any classical picture of physics; other non-classical elements are complementarity and wavefunction collapse. The problem of interpretation of quantum mechanics is intended to provide a satisfactory picture of these non-classical elements of quantum physics.

Some advocates of the hidden variables idea prefer to accept the opinion that experiments have ruled out local hidden variables. They are ready to give up locality (and probably also causality), explaining the violation of Bell's inequality by means of a "non-local" hidden variable theory, in which the particles exchange information about their states. This is the basis of the Bohm interpretation of quantum mechanics. It is, however, considered by most to be unconvincing, requiring, for example, that all particles in the universe be able to instantaneously exchange information with all others.

Finally, one subtle assumption of the Bell inequalities is counterfactual definiteness. The derivation refers to several objective properties that cannot all be measured for any given particle, since the act of taking the measurement changes the state. Under local realism the difficulty is readily overcome, so long as we can assume that the source is stable, producing the same statistical distribution of states for all the subexperiments. If this assumption is felt to be unjustifiable, though, one can argue that Bell's inequality is unproven. In the Everett many-worlds interpretation, the assumption of counterfactual definiteness is abandoned, this interpretation assuming that the universe branches into many different observers, each of whom measures a different observation. Hence many worlds can adhere to both the properties of philosophical realism and the principle of locality and not violate Bell's conditions -- the only interpretation that can do this.

[edit]
Original Bell's inequality
The original inequality that Bell derived (Bell, 1964) was:


where C is the "correlation" of the particle pairs and a, b and c settings of the apparatus. This inequality is not used in practice. For one thing, it is true only for genuinely "two-outcome" systems, not for the "three-outcome" ones (with possible outcomes of zero as well as +1 and −1) encountered in real experiments. For another, it applies only to a very restricted set of hidden variable theories, namely those for which the outcomes on both sides of the experiment are always exactly anticorrelated when the analysers are parallel, in agreement with the quantum mechanical prediction.




[edit]
Notable quotes
Heinz Pagels, in The Cosmic Code, writes:

Some recent popularizers of Bell's work when confronted with [Bell's inequality] have gone on to claim that telepathy is verified or the mystical notion that all parts of the universe are instantaneously interconnected is vindicated. Others assert that this implies communication faster than the speed of light. That is rubbish; the quantum theory and Bell's inequality imply nothing of this kind. Individuals who make such claims have substituted a wish-fulfilling fantasy for understanding. If we closely examine Bell's experiment we will see a bit of sleight of hand by the God that plays dice which rules out actual nonlocal influences. Just as we think we have captured a really weird beast--like acausal influences--it slips out of our grasp. The slippery property of quantum reality is again manifested.

[edit]
See also
Bell test experiments
CHSH Bell test
Clauser and Horne's 1974 Bell test
Counter-Factual Definiteness
Local hidden variable theory
Mott problem
Quantum entanglement
Quantum mechanical Bell test prediction
Renninger negative-result experiment
[edit]
Further reading
The following are intended for general audiences.

Amir D. Aczel, Entanglement: The greatest mystery in physics (Four Walls Eight Windows, New York, 2001).
A. Afriat and F. Selleri, The Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen Paradox (Plenum Press, New York and London, 1999)
J. Baggott, The Meaning of Quantum Theory (Oxford University Press, 1992)
N. David Mermin, "Is the moon there when nobody looks? Reality and the quantum theory", in Physics Today, April 1985, pp. 38-47.
Brian Greene, The Fabric of the Cosmos (Vintage, 2004, ISBN 0-375-72720-5)
D. Wick, The infamous boundary: seven decades of controversy in quantum physics (Birkhauser, Boston 1995)
[edit]
References
A. Aspect et al., Experimental Tests of Realistic Local Theories via Bell's Theorem, Phys. Rev. Lett. 47, 460 (1981)
A. Aspect et al., Experimental Realization of Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen-Bohm Gedankenexperiment: A New Violation of Bell's Inequalities, Phys. Rev. Lett. 49, 91 (1982).
A. Aspect et al., Experimental Test of Bell's Inequalities Using Time-Varying Analyzers, Phys. Rev. Lett. 49, 1804 (1982).
A. Aspect and P. Grangier, About resonant scattering and other hypothetical effects in the Orsay atomic-cascade experiment tests of Bell inequalities: a discussion and some new experimental data, Lettere al Nuovo Cimento 43, 345 (1985)
J. S. Bell, On the Einstein Podolsky Rosen Paradox, Physics 1, 195 (1964)
J. S. Bell, On the problem of hidden variables in quantum mechanics, Rev. Mod. Phys. 38, 447 (1966)
J. S. Bell, Introduction to the hidden variable question, Proceedings of the International School of Physics 'Enrico Fermi', Course IL, Foundations of Quantum Mechanics (1971) 171-81
J. S. Bell, Bertlmann¡¯s socks and the nature of reality, Journal de Physique, Colloque C2, suppl. au numero 3, Tome 42 (1981) pp C2 41-61
J. S. Bell, Speakable and Unspeakable in Quantum Mechanics (Cambridge University Press 1987) [A collection of Bell's papers, including all of the above.]
J. F. Clauser, M. A. Horne, A. Shimony and R. A. Holt, Proposed experiment to test local hidden-variable theories, Physical Review Letters 23, 880-884 (1969).
J. F. Clauser and M. A. Horne, Experimental consequences of objective local theories, Physical Review D, 10, 526-35 (1974)
J. F. Clauser and A. Shimony, Bell's theorem: experimental tests and implications, Reports on Progress in Physics 41, 1881 (1978)
S. J. Freedman and J. F. Clauser, Experimental test of local hidden-variable theories, Phys. Rev. Lett. 28, 938 (1972)
E. S. Fry, T. Walther and S. Li, Proposal for a loophole-free test of the Bell inequalities, Phys. Rev. A 52, 4381 (1995)
E. S. Fry, and T. Walther, Atom based tests of the Bell Inequalities - the legacy of John Bell continues, pp 103-117 of Quantum [Un]speakables, R.A. Bertlmann and A. Zeilinger (eds.) (Springer, Berlin-Heidelberg-New York, 2002)
R. B. Griffiths, Consistent Quantum Theory', Cambridge University Press (2002).
L. Hardy, Nonlocality for 2 particles without inequalities for almost all entangled states. Physical Review Letters 71 (11) 1665-1668 (1993)
M. A. Nielsen and I. L. Chuang, Quantum Computation and Quantum Information, Cambridge University Press (2000)
P. Pearle, Hidden-Variable Example Based upon Data Rejection, Physical Review D 2, 1418-25 (1970)
A. Peres, Quantum Theory: Concepts and Methods, Kluwer, Dordrecht, 1993.
M. Redhead, Incompleteness, Nonlocality and Realism, Clarendon Press (1987)
B. C. van Frassen, Quantum Mechanics, Clarendon Press, 1991.
M.A. Rowe, D. Kielpinski, V. Meyer, C.A. Sackett, W.M. Itano, C. Monroe, and D.J. Wineland, "Experimental violation of Bell's inequalities with efficient detection",(Nature, 409, 791-794, 2001).


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Offlinejungjedi
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: jungjedi]
    #5955069 - 08/11/06 11:30 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

the second i would mention is david bohm.
the implicate,explicate,super implicate order
BOHM AND THE IMPLICATE ORDER: AN INTRODUCTION

David Bohm, an American, was one of the leading quantum physicists of our age. He died recently. Following a venerable career at the University of California (Berkeley) and at Princeton's Institute of Advanced Studies, he moved to become Professor of Theoretical Physics at Birkbeck College of the University of London. During his later years he linked a formidable knowledge of the history and philosophy of science to his keen experience as a physicist.

In recent years, Bohm attempted to explain an ontological basis for quantum theory. The basis of quantum theory can be summarized in three propositions:

1.) In the subatomic world, few things can be predicted with 100 percent precision; however, accurate predictions can be made about the probability of any particular outcome.

2.) One has to work with the probabilities rather than certainties, because it is impossible (for an observer) to describe all aspects of a particle at once (speed and location).

3.) Electromagnetic energy (such as light or heat) does not always behave like a continuous wave--rather it is grainy, because energy can be transferred only in quantum packages. Therefore, light has a dual character. Under certain circumstances, it may display wavelike aspects; and in other circumstances, it may have the characteristics of particles.

Referring to quantum theory, Bohm's basic assumption is that "elementary particles are actually systems of extremely complicated internal structure, acting essentially as amplifiers of *information* contained in a quantum wave." As a conseqence, he has evolved a new and controversial theory of the universe--a new model of reality that Bohm calls the "Implicate Order."

The theory of the Implicate Order contains an ultraholistic cosmic view; it connects everything with everything else. In principle, any individual element could reveal "detailed information about every other element in the universe." The central underlying theme of Bohm's theory is the "unbroken wholeness of the totality of existence as an undivided flowing movement without borders."

During the early 1980s Bohm developed his theory of the Implicate Order in order to explain the bizarre behavior of subatomic particles--behavior that quantum phyicists have not been able to explain. Basically, two subatomic particles that have once interacted can instantaneously "respond to each other's motions thousands of years later when they are light-years apart." This sort of particle interconnectedness requires superluminal signaling, which is faster than the speed of light. This odd phenomenon is called the EPR effect, named after the Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen thought experiment.

Bohm believes that the bizarre behavior of the subatomic particles might be caused by unobserved subquantum forces and particles. Indeed, the apparent weirdness might be produced by hidden means that pose no conflict with ordinary ideas of causality and reality.

Bohm believes that this "hiddeness" may be reflective of a deeper dimension of reality. He maintains that space and time might actually be derived from an even deeper level of objective reality. This reality he calls the Implicate Order. Within the Implicate Order everything is connected; and, in theory, any individual element could reveal information about every other element in the universe.

Borrowing ideas from holographic photography, the *hologram* is Bohm's favorite metaphor for conveying the structure of the Implicate Order. Holography relies upon wave interference. If two wavelengths of light are of differing frequencies, they will interfere with each other and create a pattern. "Because a hologram is recording detail down to the wavelength of light itself, it is also a dense *information* storage." Bohm notes that the hologram clearly reveals how a "total content--in principle extending over the whole of space and time--is enfolded in the movement of waves (electromagnetic and other kinds) in any given region." The hologram illustrates how "information about the entire holographed scene is enfolded into every part of the film." It resembles the Implicate Order in the sense that every point on the film is "completely determined by the overall configuration of the interference patterns." Even a tiny chunk of the holographic film will reveal the unfolded form of an entire three-dimensional object.

Proceeding from his holographic analogy, Bohm proposes a new order--the Implicate Order where "everything is enfolded into everything." This is in contrast to the explicate order where things are unfolded. Bohm puts it thus:

"The actual order (the Implicate Order) itself has been recorded in the complex movement of electromagnetic fields, in the form of light waves. Such movement of light waves is present everywhere and in principle enfolds the entire universe of space and time in each region. This enfoldment and unfoldment takes place not only in the movement of the electromagnetic field but also in that of other fields (electronic, protonic, etc.). These fields obey quantum-mechanical laws, implying the properties of discontinuity and non-locality. The totality of the movement of enfoldment and unfoldment may go immensely beyond what has revealed itself to our observations. We call this totality by the name *holomovement.*"

Bohm believes that *the Implicate Order has to be extended into a multidimensional reality;* in other words, the holomovement endlessly enfolds and unfolds into infinite dimensionality. Within this milieu there are independent sub-totalities (such as physical elements and human entities) with relative autonomy. The layers of the Implicate Order can go deeper and deeper to the ultimately unknown. It is this "unknown and undescribable totality" that Bohm calls the holomovement. The holomovement is the "fundamental ground of all matter."

Finally, the manifest world is part of what Bohm refers to as the "explicate order." It is secondary, derivative; it "flows out of the law of the Implicate Order." Within the Implicate Order, there is a "totality of forms that have an approximate kind of recurrence (changing), stability, and separability." It is these forms, according to Bohm, that make up our manifest world.

Summarizing, Bohm uses analogies most ingeniously as he attempts to simplify his theory. Bohm suggests that instead of thinking of particles as the fundamental reality, the focus should be on discrete particle-like quanta in a continuous field. On the basis of this quantum field, Bohm breaks down the Implicate Order into three categories:

The first category is the original, "continuous field" itself along with its movement. Bohm likens this continuous field to a television screen displaying an infinite variety of explicate forms.

The second category is obtained by considering superquantum wave function acting upon the field. ("This is related to the whole field as the original quantum wave is related to the particle.") More complex and subtle, this second category applies to a "superfield" or *information* that guides and organizes the original quantum field. Bohm considers it to be similar to a computer which supplies the information that arranges the various forms--in the first category.

And last, Bohm believes that there is an underlying cosmic intelligence that supplies the information--the *Player* of this game who is the third category. Folling this analogy, Bohm sees the whole process as a closed loop; it goes from the screen to the computer to the Player and back to the screen.

Bohm's theory of the Implicate Order stresses that the cosmos is in a state of process. Bohm's cosmos is a "feedback" universe that continuously recycles forward into a greater mode of being and consciousness.

Bohm believes in a special cosmic interiority. It *is* the Implicate Order, and it implies enfoldment into everything. Everything that is and will be in this cosmos is enfolded within the Implicate Order. There is a special cosmic movement that carries forth the process of enfoldment and unfoldment (into the explicate order). This process of cosmic movement, in endless feedback cycles, creates an infinite variety of manifest forms and mentality. Bohm is of the opinion that a fundamental Cosmic Intelligence is the *Player* in this process; it is engaged in endless experimentation and creativity. This Player, the Cosmic Mind, is moving cyclically onward and onward accruing an infinity of experienced being!

The structural outline of Bohm's cosmic model is as follows: the Ground of All Existence, Matter, Consciousness, and the Cosmic Apex.

THE GROUND OF ALL EXISTENCE

At the very depths of the ground of all existence Bohm believes that there exists a special energy. For Bohm it is the plenum; it is an "immense background of energy." The energy of this ground is likened to one whole and unbroken movement by Bohm. He calls this the "holomovement." It is the holomovement that carries the Implicate Order.

Bohm also refers to a law in the holomovement. He theorizes that the 'order in every immediately perceptible aspect of the world is to be regarded as coming out of a more comprehensive Implicate Order, in which all aspects ultimately merge in the undefinable and immeasurable holomovement. Holonomy, through a wide range of aspects, can be considered a "movement in which new wholes are emerging."

What is it that emerges from this ultimate ground, this "unknown totality of the universal flux?" It is the extension of the Implicate Order into a multidimensional reality. It is the interplay between the implicate and the explicate orders. It is the flow of matter, manifested and interdependent, towards consciousness.

MATTER: INANIMATE AND ANIMATE

Right off Bohm refers to the particle, the most essential building- block of matter. He considers the particle, fundamentally, to be only an "abstraction that is manifest to our senses." Basically, for Bohm, the whole cosmos is matter; in his own words: "What *is* is always a totality of ensembles, all present together, in an orderly series of stages of enfoldment and unfoldment, which intermingle and interpenetrate each other in principle throughout the whole of space."

Bohm's explicate order, however, is secondary--derivative. It flows out of the law of the Implicate Order, a law that stresses the relationships between the enfolded structures that interweave each other throughout cosmic space rather than between the "abstracted and separate forms that manifest to the senses."

Bohm's explanation of "manifest" is basically that in certain sub-orders, within the "whole set" of Implicate Order, there is a "totality of forms that have an approximate kind of recurrence, stability and separability." These forms are capable of appearing tangible, solid, and thus make up our manifest world.

Bohm also declares that the "implicate order has to be extended into a multidimensional reality." He proceeds: "In principle this reality is one unbroken whole, including the entire universe with all its fields and particles. Thus we have to say that the holomovement enfolds and unfolds in a multidimensional order, the dimensionality of which is effectively infinite. Thus the principle of relative autonomy of sub-totalities--is now seen to extend to the multi-dimensional order of reality."

Bohm illustrates this higher-dimensional reality by showing the relationship of two televised images of a fish tank, where the fish are seen through two walls at right angles to one another. What is seen is that there is a certain "relationship between the images appearing on the two screens." We know, Bohm notes, that the two fish tank images are interacting actualities, but they are not two independently existent realities. "Rather, they refer to a single actuality, which is the common ground of both." For Bohm this single actuality is of higher dimensionality, because the television images are two-dimensional projections of a three-dimensional reality, which "holds these two-dimensional projections within it." These projections are only abstractions, but the "three-dimensional reality *is* neither of these--rather it is something else, something of a nature beyond both."

If there is apparent evolution in the universe, it is *because the different scales or dimensions of reality are already implicit in its structure.* Bohm uses the analogy of the seed being "informed" to produce a living plant. The same can be said of all living matter. "Life is enfolded in the totality and--even when it is not manifest, it is somehow implicit." The holomovement is the ground for both life and matter. There is no dichotomy.

What lies ahead? For Bohm it is the development of consciousness!

CONSCIOUSNESS

Bohm conceives of consciousness as more than information and the brain; rather it is information that enters into consciousness. For Bohm consciousness "involves awareness, attention, perception, acts of understanding, and perhaps yet more." Further, Bohm parallels the activity of consciousness with that of the Implicate Order in general.

Consciousness, Bohm notes, can be "described in terms of a series of moments." Basically, "one moment gives rise to the next, in which context that was previously implicate is now explicate while the previous explicate content has become implicate." Consciousness is an interchange; it is a feedback process that results in a growing accumulation of understanding.

Bohm considers the human individual to be an "intrinsic feature of the universe, which would be incomplete--in some fundamental sense" if the person did not exist. He believes that individuals participate in the whole and consequently give it meaning. Because of human participation, the "Implicate Order is getting to know itself better."

Bohm also senses a new development. The individual is in total contact with the Implicate Order, the individual is part of the whole of mankind, and he is the "focus for something beyond mankind." Using the analogy of the transformation of the atom ultimately into a power and chain reaction, Bohm believes that the individual who uses inner energy and intelligence can transform mankind. The collectivity of individuals have reached the "principle of the consciousness of mankind," but they have not quite the "energy to reach the whole, to put it all on fire."

Continuing with this theme on the transformation of consciousness, Bohm goes on to suggest that an intense heightening of individuals who have shaken off the "pollution of the ages" (wrong worldviews that propagate ignorance), who come into close and trusting relationship with one another, can begin to generate the immense power needed to ignite the whole consciousness of the world. In the depths of the Implicate Order, there is a "consciousness, deep down--of the whole of mankind."

It is this collective consciousness of mankind that is truly significant for Bohm. It is this collective consciousness that is truly one and indivisible, and it is the responsibility of each human person to contribute towards the building of this consciousness of mankind, this noosphere! "There's nothing else to do--there is no other way out. That is absolutely what has to be done and nothing else can work."

Bohm also believes that the individual will eventually be fulfilled upon the completion of cosmic noogenesis. Referring to all the elements of the cosmos, including human beings, as projections of an ultimate totality, Bohm notes that as a "human being takes part in the process of this totality, he is fundamentally changed in the very activity in which his aim is to change that reality, which is the content of his consciousness." Bohm is intuiting that the human person and mankind collectively, upon accomplishing a successful noogenesis, will come to fullness within that greater dimension of reality--the Cosmic Apex.

THE COSMIC APEX

Bohm refers to this ultimate level--the source of the nonmanifest--as the Subtle Nonmanifest, something akin to spirit, a mover, but still matter in the sense that it is a part of the Implicate Order. For Bohm, the Subtle Nonmanifest is an *active intelligence* beyond any of the "energies defined in thought."

Trying to describe the Subtle Nonmanifest, Bohm states that the "subtle is what is basic and the manifest is its result." T îve intelligence "directly transforms matter." And finally, Bohm says it straight: "there's a truth, an actuality, a being beyond what can be grasped in thought, and this is intelligence, the sacred, the holy."

Bohm poetically thinks of this cosmic Subtle Nonmanifest in a state of meditation. But what is it doing? Meditation means "to reflect, to turn something over in the mind, and to pay close attention." Without explanation, Bohm wonders aloud that while we meditate on that which we term the subtle nonmanifest, does the Subtle Nonmanifest concentrate on *its* Subtle Nonmanifest?" Does this mean that the Cosmic Apex ponders upon something beyond or outside of itself? Possibly Bohm is considering the infinite potential of what he terms "multidimensional reality." He might also be thinking of the possibility of Something Separate.

For Bohm, the Cosmic Apex is a Holy Intelligence. It is a Player who operates in a feedback universe. The Player *is* the Impicate Order. Bohm provides the analogy of the "continuous field," the information, and the Player of the whole game. This process is ever endless, ever expanding or evolving, as the Player gathers all to itself. The player continuously grasps itself. *This is the Play of the Cosmic Process!*

There are certain characteristics that can be discerned from Bohm's cosmic model. They are Order, Intelligence, Personalization, Creativity, and a sense of Holiness.

ORDER

Bohm believes that a special cosmic energy holds the All together, and this cosmic energy follows a cosmic law (order). Bohm refers to it as the law in the holomovement. His viewpoint is that of "wholeness." The law of his holographic cosmic system is simply a movement which enables new "wholes" to emerge. These new holistic aspects may appear possibly to have some autonomy, but ultimately they are all aspects of the All.

INTELLIGENCE

Before consciousness there is information; it is information, an inwardness, according to Bohm, that enters into consciousness. Bohm speculates that this inwardness in consciousness may be likened to an *insight* which could, if refined, be used as an instrument for letting the "energies (of the Subtle Nonmanifest) come through." Bohm refers to this as an "active intelligence."

Bohm considers thought as basically mechanical in its operation. What makes the mechanical thought process relevant is intelligence. Bohm puts it thus: "The perception of whether or not any particular thoughts are relevant or fitting requires the operation of an energy that is not mechanical, an energy that we shall call intelligence." He continues: "For example, one may be working on a puzzling problem for a long time. Suddenly, in a flash of understanding, one may see the irrelevance of one's whole way of thinking about the problem, along with a different approach--such a flash is essentially an *act of perception.*"

Bohm believes that if intelligence is an "unconditioned act of perception," than the intelligence cannot be grounded in "structures such as cells, molecules, atoms, and elementary particles." The operation of intelligence, for Bohm, has to be beyond any factors that can be included in any knowable law. The "ground of intelligence must be in the undetermined and unknown flux, that is also the ground of all definable forms of matter." For Bohm, intelligence has always been at the very core of the Implicate Order!

PERSONALIZATION

Bohm is somewhat reserved about the theoretical prospects of cosmic personalization; nonetheless, he points to such a possibility in vague, cyclic terminology about human projections: "each of these elements is a projection, in a sub-totality of yet higher dimension. So it will be ultimately misleading and indeed wrong to suppose, for example, that each human being is an independent actuality who interacts with other human beings and with nature. Rather, all these are projections of a single totality. As a human being takes part in the process of this totality, he is fundamentally changed in the very activity in which his aim is to change that reality which is the content of his consciousness."

Bohm considers that consciousness is an exchange between the explicate and implicate orders. Consciousness is part of the play of the cosmic process, grasping itself (through its sub-totalities) into higher and higher levels of consciousness. Logically, if cosmic sub-totalities (such as human beings) can be considered to be persons (of which only a few are developing toward higher levels of Personhood), than through the feedback interchange, the cosmos is becoming progressively personalized as well.

CREATIVITY

This Cosmic Knower, the *Player of the Cosmic Process,* is pure energy. It is intelligent. It is conscious. It is a Person. And this Player is also creative!

Considering cosmic creativity, Bohm introduces a new concept in which he describes the Implicate Order as a kind of *generative order.* He notes that "This order is primarily concerned not with the outward side of development, and evolution in a sequence of successions, but with a deeper and more inward order out of which the manifest form of things can emerge *creatively.*"

Bohm believes that the generative order "proceeds from an origin in free play which then unfolds into ever more crystallized forms." Generative order can be seen in the work of an artist. Bohm uses the example of Mandelbrot's mathematically-derived fractals to illustrate more scientifically this cosmic generativity. "Fractals involve an order of similar differences which include changes of scale as well as other possible changes." Bohm notes that "By choosing different base figures and generators, but each time applying the generator on a smaller and smaller scale, Mandelbrot is able to produce a great variety of shapes and figures--All are filled with infinitesimal detail and are evocative of the types of complexity found in natural forms."

HOLINESS

For Bohm the Holy is a "being beyond what can be grasped in thought." and Bohm calls the Subtle Nonmanifest "holy" in the sense that it is whole. It is a Presence within cosmic energy.

The Bohm cosmic model also suggests that this "holiness" has existed since the foundation of the cosmos. It is present in the cyclical process of the universe. It is pure, active intelligence from which all that is manifest in the cosmos comes. It acts through an inwardness in consciousness. It enfolds information into the many levels of consciousness, into all of life. It is the Implicate Order which is the Ground of All Existence.

THE COSMIC PILGRIM

Humanity is the pilgrim in this cosmic process. What does Bohm have to say about the human condition?

What of Evil? For Bohm there are the evils of disorder (which causes suffering) and death. Bohm does not believe that there is disorder at the level of the non-human universality, rather it is at the level of humanity--mainly because of ignorance. Nature has allowed humanity the luxury to make mistakes, because humankind must have the "possibility of being creative." It is our fledgling ranking in this cosmic process that places us in these circumstances of choice and possible chaos. Disorder, and its consequent suffering, will prevail as long as all the different elements (of any given system, whether a human body or human society) "chaotically grow independently of each other, don't work together."

Bohm is dispassionate about Life and Death. He uses the analogy of a live oak tree. Creation-dissolution-creation all coexist in that live oak tree. The "leaves are continually forming and some are dropping off at the same time, so that it looks as if it's a constant tree." Bohm continues, noting that "its from the nonmanifest that the tree is continually forming and into the nonmanifest that it is dying."

What of the evil of Ignorance? The ignorance of humanity, in Bohm's opinion, is a matter of closed mindedness. He considers it the "darkness in the human brain." It is a matter of the human ego closed to the Universal Mind, to the supreme intelligence who communicates through the mode of insight.

According to Bohm, insight is pure perception. Because of the low level of our ego development (manifested by our grandiosity, our emotional fears and pressures, our ignorant worldviews, and our gross extraversion), this insight is more than often deflected by a closed mind. The opposite of the closed mind is the openness to interiority. Human beings must look within in order to meet and scrutinize universal insight.

What does Bohm think of human Consciousness and Creativity? For Bohm unfolded creative intelligence originated in the depths of the generative order (the Implicate Order). "In the free play of thought," Bohm says that the "creative intelligence responds to opposition and contradiction with new proposals." He believes that every aspect of human experience, whether physical or mental, emotional or intellectual, can be "profoundly affected by creative intelligence, wherever this is able to act." And *this* in Bohm's mind is a *breakthrough* experience, because through the action of cosmic creative intelligence "everything may take on a new meaning."

What of Human Destiny, how does Bohm consider this? Bohm's overall vision of human destiny is short and straightforward: "The consciousness of mankind is one and not truly divisible." Each person ha s a responsibility to achieve this and nothing else. "There is no other way out. That is absolutely what has to be done and nothing else can work."

Bohm believes that only through collective cooperation can man accrue the high degree of energy required to "reach the whole of the consciousness of mankind." Bohm believes that the individual is in total contact with the Implicate Order. In that sense, the individual "is part of the whole of mankind and in another sense he can get beyond it."

Bohm goes no further. It can only be speculated that Bohm is thinking of a kind of ascension, of a new way of being, perhaps of a New Being?

Bibliography
Books:

David Bohm, WHOLENESS AND THE IMPLICATE ORDER.
David Bohm and B.J. Hiley, THE UNDIVIDED UNIVERSE.
David Bohm and J. Krishnamurti, THE ENDING OF TIME.
David Bohm and J. Krishnamurti, THE FUTURE OF HUMANITY.
David Bohm and F. David Peat, SCIENCE, ORDER, AND CREATIVITY.
Ken Wilber (ed.), THE HOLOGRAPHIC PARADIGM.
Articles:

i think this is exceptionally profound because he says that not only can matter and energy curve spacetime but so can concionsness,thought,and intent
ide also like to put a word in for f. david peat and karl prigram t'hooft and susskind,who propose that oneday holographic field theory will replace QM,QCD,AND the standard model


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: jungjedi]
    #5955198 - 08/12/06 12:28 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

that's too much reading right now lol. if you could summarize the general theory. but see, whether i read that or not, nothing can go beyond cause and effect. it doesnt matter how you explain it. it just doesnt work that way. the only thing that could technically be considered beyond cause and effect would be a final destruction to end everything. even then it would still be a result of cause and effect. anything fathomable there is an answer for it, the answer is cause, it being the effect. it's virtually impossible to go beyond cause and effect in that sense.

but could you summarize what you're pasting, otherwise my opinion will go unchanged.

still on my quest to prove to myself god exsists, i just remembered that rule. and if cause and effect is a real, then that would mean there is a starting point from absolute nothing. which i'm not sure how that would happen since there would have to be a cause for god's creation. but for god to be created, he wouldnt be god anymore (would he? i think that should be looked at more). so it's kind of a paradox. but it makes more sense then matter always being there, as if that were the case the matter exsisting would have no cause. after all, human understanding of exsistence is pretty naive.

or, theory B of mine is : god could of come from chaos. with out order. which would mean things could happen with out reason. but the reason would be because there is no cause and effect, giving it a reason in itself. which actually doesnt make sense because that would be a reason, and would make cause and effect valid even in chaos. so i dont belive that can exsist.


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Offlinejungjedi
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5955214 - 08/12/06 12:39 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

that was my attempt to summerize.im not really a cut and paste type of poster but,these were some fine articles that should get you up to speed.im sorry about your theory too.it has nothing to do with chaos theory.please read my posts when you have time


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5955298 - 08/12/06 01:27 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

You ARE the cause, AND effect (NOW), and have been for a while....    You just didn't create your own "cause"....    :wink:

Why cause effect, when the effect is the cause -- yet effecting cause, effects the effect of the causes....(?)
Why be it an end, when the end is yet a beginning -- yet the ending began, in the beginning of the end....(?)

It never really started, it just was...............
Just like you and me, being conceived...............
There was a few "causes" for your conception..............
Then, "YOU" are suddenly the "effect" of those causes..............
Now creating your "own" effected cause and effects..............
Because you ARE the effect of your cause and effect..............

Two sided refracting/reflecting/replicating mirrors extrapolated into a 3D fractal form, you are, now............

It just was......
You just were......
It just is......
You just are......
It just will be.....



>^;;^<


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I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Offlinejungjedi
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5955314 - 08/12/06 01:32 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

are you stoned?
are you near a pool?
are you near a woman?
are you near a FRACTAL?


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: jungjedi]
    #5955374 - 08/12/06 01:55 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)


(Click to make full size)

I create my own 3D Fractal Mirrors.....    :wink:
(For more, click User Gallery )


>^;;^<


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I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Offlinejungjedi
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5955377 - 08/12/06 01:57 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

what programs do you use.ide like to do some in maya or xsi


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OfflineSyle
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5955437 - 08/12/06 02:37 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
You ARE the cause, AND effect (NOW), and have been for a while....    You just didn't create your own "cause"....    :wink:

Why cause effect, when the effect is the cause -- yet effecting cause, effects the effect of the causes....(?)
Why be it an end, when the end is yet a beginning -- yet the ending began, in the beginning of the end....(?)

It never really started, it just was...............
Just like you and me, being conceived...............
There was a few "causes" for your conception..............
Then, "YOU" are suddenly the "effect" of those causes..............
Now creating your "own" effected cause and effects..............
Because you ARE the effect of your cause and effect..............

Two sided refracting/reflecting/replicating mirrors extrapolated into a 3D fractal form, you are, now............

It just was......
You just were......
It just is......
You just are......
It just will be.....



>^;;^<




is it just me, or did that post just hit real deep...?


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https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: trendal]
    #5955569 - 08/12/06 04:52 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Every "effect" is also a "cause", because it will cause something else to happen after it happens.

Likewise, every "cause" is also an "effect"...because something had to cause the cause to happen :wink:




I concur..

...what is causing the effect is effecting the cause!

:grin::thumbup:


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5956198 - 08/12/06 01:27 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineFractalated
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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5956595 - 08/12/06 03:31 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

still on my quest to prove to myself god exsists, i just remembered that rule. and if cause and effect is a real, then that would mean there is a starting point from absolute nothing. which i'm not sure how that would happen since there would have to be a cause for god's creation. but for god to be created, he wouldnt be god anymore (would he? i think that should be looked at more). so it's kind of a paradox. but it makes more sense then matter always being there, as if that were the case the matter exsisting would have no cause. after all, human understanding of exsistence is pretty naive.

Since there cannot logically have been a first cause which wasn't the effect of anything, it seems reasonable to conclude that cause and effect have always existed, from beginningless time.

If you want to search for God, don't look for a divine being created in man's image. In fact, don't search for Him with any conceptualizations about what he may or may not be. Just keep your mind completely open, and you may just discover that reality is the divine.


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"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."


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Re: Cause and Effect [Re: Fractalated]
    #5961016 - 08/14/06 01:10 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Since there cannot logically have been a first cause which wasn't the effect of anything, it seems reasonable to conclude that cause and effect have always existed, from beginningless time.

No, I don't think it's so reasonable...cause & effect are a property of this universe, so they may only have come into existence when this universe did. The whole concept of cause & effect doesn't make sence without Time - which again is a dimension of this universe.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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