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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Is Abortion murder?
#5953281 - 08/11/06 08:44 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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This is traditionally a political debate it seems because the issue of women's rights, privacy, etc. come into play, but lets look at it philosophically/spiritually (whichever you prefer). Is it murder? Is it amoral or immoral? Does it lack compassion towards a fetus? Some people describe abortion on demand as a kind of genocide. Pope John Paul II likened it to an event similar to the holocaust. To him, life begins at conception, so logically the legally sanctioned killings of millions of fetuses are going to appear catastrophic to him. It has become a fairly polarized and shrill debate with no middle ground. Maybe it's not completely harmless as pro-choice activists claim, and maybe it's not as sinister as pro-life activists claim. Who's right?
Philosophically. Human life is precious, right? As soon as there is potential for human growth to flourish, should it not be protected? Should it only be allowed in cases of where a criminal element (rape, incest etc.) is present?
Where does life begin?
Discuss
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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soulcircus
Stranger


Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 1,300
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Re: Is Abortion murder? *DELETED* [Re: Basilides]
#5953287 - 08/11/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Post deleted by soulcircusReason for deletion: .
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capliberty
Stranger


Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 1,949
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: soulcircus]
#5953301 - 08/11/06 09:01 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't know, this is womens problem,
good luck beaches, I'll add this is mans problem too, its good/bad to do I guess depending on the situation
Edited by capliberty (08/11/06 09:06 AM)
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5953318 - 08/11/06 09:08 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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> Is Abortion murder?
Considering that a typical female's body will naturally abort many pregnancies, I would be very hesitant to label an abortion as murder. We would be putting woman in jail for something that is beyond their control.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist


Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: capliberty]
#5953321 - 08/11/06 09:10 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I feel it should be the woman's choice.
Men in suits are in no position to decide on the morality of abortion when it is they who order the killings of thousands of innocent people every single day.
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shithead
Stranger


Registered: 07/18/06
Posts: 191
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5953337 - 08/11/06 09:20 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I,ve got 2 thoughts, on this subject. 1. I believe that life does start at conception. 2. I also firmly believe, that the woman, has every right to make that decision for herself. So
-------------------- I just have names. shit has been way busy, names have been flying out the door. No time for special name shit.
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mntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation


Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5953478 - 08/11/06 10:54 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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It is not murder until the thing can live unsupported outside the mother. until it has lived on it's own accord it is not alive any more than my large intestine is "alive".
Ever when it does turn into murder the assignment of it's moral standing is totally dependent of societies consensus. In other words, even if it was murder does that make it wrong? If an animal kills one of two offspring because there is only food enough for one is that immoral? If the momentary suffering of one can eliminate the longterm suffering of several others is it wrong?
While these things might be distasteful I hesitate to apply morality labels because they are arbitrary and changing.
-------------------- Be all and you'll be to end all
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StroFun
Repeater

Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 977
Loc: Mycotopia.net
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: mntlfngrs]
#5953510 - 08/11/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would rather not have been born than live a fucked up life…I’ve been through a lot of family and relationship shit and I had a great upbringing. I can’t imagine how messed up I would be if my mother was 16 when she had me…
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: shithead]
#5953573 - 08/11/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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All societies ( & religions) fail to see that what they assume to be moral is in fact largely arbitrary... This is even more obvious in the case of Law, the disobeying of which can lead to punishment... And what is considered "fair" punishment also changes, not only from society to society, but also as time passes within each society... And much punishment is itself brutal, if not purposefully fatal...but this is not called murder or crime ...of course "Nature" herself is arbitrary and cruel...volcanoes,tsunami,plagues...etc... ( When male lions take over a pride, they kill all the cubs from the previous males... Yet no lions have jobs developing Nerve Gas, while getting the respect of their neighbors, because they earn a good income.) ...We have not even discussed, war and spying and other activities (like: installing puppet governments...Bay of Pigs (Kennedy's failed invasion of cuba,in the 1960's) type stuff...Arms sales, etc.) that societies and governments feel justified in pursuing... ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** A few related points: ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** Why is abortion a big issue In America? Do politicians keep it going like the "War on drugs" to dirtract from the real problems they don't want to deal with? Or is the average American bear just not very smart?
** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **
Studying a little anthropology and history is helplful to gain perspective
** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **
being aware that as human's we are all susceptible to self righteousness
** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **
Part of the reason why humans fail to see that "morality" is relative, is that folks have a base level of subconcious anxiety, which propels them to search for certainty, and simple answers. ... People who have large amounts of responsibility know that certainty does not exist. For example: Doctors on the battlefield must decide whom to operate on first...does this make them murderers or healers? Will they ever know if they are making the right decisions? ...Yet thousands of American humans apparently watch TV court shows...
** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **
very odd species we are
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koppie
astral projectile


Registered: 07/23/04
Posts: 2,653
Loc: cloud hidden
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5953608 - 08/11/06 11:45 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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It depends on how you define humanity.
A fetus, while being alive in my opinion isn't a human. It has no store of memories, and no social connections to the outside world that will be lost. Going by brain volume, if it has an intelligence, then this is comparable to that of a rat at the stage where abortion is allowed, so while it is killing a living being and shouldn't be done without good reason, I wouldn't go so far as comparing it to killing a human being.
So, not murder in my estimate, no more than euthanizing an animal. It's sad when it happens, but sometimes it's the right thing to do.
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barfightlard
tales of theinexpressible



Registered: 01/29/03 
Posts: 8,670
Loc: Canoodia
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5953673 - 08/11/06 12:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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"As soon as there is potential for human growth to flourish, should it not be protected?"
So since there are men and woman there is potential right there, we want to fuck. Should we all be locked up in safe cages and made to eat a well balanced diet and only giving a healthy amount of sensory input each day?
If we are free, we should be that way. True freedom doesn't have any grey area.
--------------------
"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks
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mntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation


Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: StroFun]
#5953683 - 08/11/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
StroFun said: I would rather not have been born than live a fucked up life…I’ve been through a lot of family and relationship shit and I had a great upbringing. I can’t imagine how messed up I would be if my mother was 16 when she had me…
My mom was 17 when I was born. Dad was 18 but he pussed out. Guys are fuckin pussies sometimes when it comes to this stuff.
-------------------- Be all and you'll be to end all
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: koppie]
#5953700 - 08/11/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
koppie said: It depends on how you define humanity.
A fetus, while being alive in my opinion isn't a human. It has no store of memories, and no social connections to the outside world that will be lost. Going by brain volume, if it has an intelligence, then this is comparable to that of a rat at the stage where abortion is allowed, so while it is killing a living being and shouldn't be done without good reason, I wouldn't go so far as comparing it to killing a human being.
So, not murder in my estimate, no more than euthanizing an animal. It's sad when it happens, but sometimes it's the right thing to do.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5954098 - 08/11/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Early in church history it was acceptable to abort fetuses but as theological notions changed, so did prohibitions even to the point of then murdering a woman who aborted! Conception was (and still is by unconscious people) believed to occur at the moment of ejaculation, but it takes sperm up to 72 hours to meet the ova.
I've known girls to have had multiple abortions like a method of birth control! A clear abuse of the practice to me. My first pregnancy case was a 9th grade girl who was almost certainly 6 or more months pregnant. Her physician said it was within the 5 month range, but she was huge. A 5 month fetus is a viable life that can exist outside the womb (albeit in an incubator). Such a termination strikes me immediately as immoral and yes, murder. The fetus is burned with saline to bring about a miscarriage or vacuum-dismembered depending upon how late or early the term is.
On the other hand, I had a 9th grade Haitian girl raped by two assailants with weapons in front of her family. She became pregnant and had to decide what to do. This 14 year old decided that she did not want to risk bearing a male child who might grow up to be a rapist like it's father and she chose to abort. As a follow-up, that girl's mother who should have nurtured that girl after the rape decided to punish her for bringing shame on the family, and so the mother introduced hot peppers into the girl's vagina which caused a raging infection. It was then my job (after providing termination clinics) to report the mother to Child Protective Services for having abused (tortured) the child. Though remaining impartial to the girl's decision, (I did clarify pros and cons of delivery, abortion, adoption), inwardly I was in agreement with THIS decision to terminate.
So, the morality of abortion needs to be determined individually, but certain ethics need to derive from the morality. Some people believe it is always wrong. Some people say that only when a nervous system capable of experiencing the abortion process is intact should abortion not be performed. Some say a rudimentary beating heart should preclude abortion. Personally, I believe that only embryonic human life should be terminated, NEVER fetal life. Forcing a child to deliver based on the rights of the unborn makes little sense since girls still die in childbirth. Moreover, I've seen a 12 year old girl plan her pregnancy, carry it out (having morning sickness secretly in class, in a zip-lock bag), and THEN discover that motherhood is far more difficult than bearing a child. With a party-girl grandmother, that infant needed to be removed from the child (who passed it around to other kids like a doll, while she was high on X and/or pot). Obviously there are no simple answers here.
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bmh8938
FrequentMind-Flyer


Registered: 08/06/06
Posts: 5
Loc: Between the Atlantic and ...
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
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im 16 and my girlfriend got pregnant this year...i told her my feelings which were to have the abortion, and as early as possible. just because i wanted our kids if we ever did end up together to have the best life possible, and i dont know how either of us could have possibly dealt with it and had happy lives ourselves at 16. she still decided to keep it, and we broke up soon after...not because i 'pussed out' like most people who havent been through the situation themselves like to put it. it was a me and her thing, if she did have it i would have been completely involved, child care, visits, everything. sure running away to a different city may be 'pussing out'...but anyways, she was about 3 months pregnant and she ended up losing the baby. it was a rough time for both of us but i think it was meant to happen. were now back together and as happy as ever, and this entire situation brought us closer together than ever before...i think abortion is acceptable as long as you follow through with it as early as you possibly can, and as long as its not at the point where the child could live outside the womb in an incubator. the funny thing is, before all this happened to me, i used to be completely antiabortion, like 100% hardcore anti abortion...dont judge so harshly about this unless youve been in the situation yourself though. its amazing what actually being emotionally involved in a situation can do to your views and just everything...anyways thats all. have a good weekend!
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5954205 - 08/11/06 03:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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well murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being. since abortion is legal (and since some would argue that a fetus isn't a human being) abortion *technically* isn't murder.
however, i personally feel that it lacks compassion for the fetus. i feel that it is a mothers responsibility to protect and care for her baby even before it is born. if she cannot handle the responsibilities that go long with having sex, she has no business doing it.
Edited by Deviate (08/11/06 04:03 PM)
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool


Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Deviate]
#5954209 - 08/11/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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abortion is love
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Seuss]
#5954213 - 08/11/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > Is Abortion murder?
Considering that a typical female's body will naturally abort many pregnancies, I would be very hesitant to label an abortion as murder. We would be putting woman in jail for something that is beyond their control.
what are you talking about? miscarriage does not equal abortion. that's like saying if your child dies from natural causes you should be charged murdering it.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: bmh8938]
#5954216 - 08/11/06 03:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you're intentionally responding to my post about not being judgemental, then you're about to encounter more clinical judgement. Having unprotected sex at age 16 is wrong for several reasons. In my city - Miami - it is stupid to the point of being suicidal since we're the #1 AIDS city in the USA, and I don't know how old your girlfriend is, but if a 16 year old boy knocks up a girl under 16, it is proof of statutory rape and an imprisonable offense (not to mention a paternity suit which makes your guardians responsible). You both got away with a responsibility that neither of you are ready to take on no matter how good your intentions might be. I've been dealing with situations like yours for 20 years and it's always the cause of further suffering in life for all involved.
I would not be surprised at any disagreement from you - you're 16 years old on a site about psychedelics. Not to pick on you personally, but no matter how a person may appear physically, there are just some things a person can't fake - like stages of psychological growth and development. Please don't take this as a put-down (it's not), but if I were you (and I'm not), I'd be a student of these practices for at least a couple more years before you continue practicing. I for one wouldn't want to see you undermine your personality before certain processes have completely jelled. You've already evidenced one big mistake in life and believe me there are other big mistakes to be made. Being a student should be your central identity at this time. Sorry, but as a professional I'd be remiss if I simply ignored the obvious and avoided the possibility of offending you instead of stating my position.
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rubixcubies
porch monkey ferlyfe


Registered: 08/05/06
Posts: 1,218
Loc: ottawa on
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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induced abortions by doctors are just a modern twist on the miscarriage survival mechanism if the conditions are deemed by the mother('s body) to be unfavorable to bring new life then no new life will be brought into those unfavorable conditions
-------------------- i'm a very evolved ape you know.
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: rubixcubies]
#5954249 - 08/11/06 04:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
rubixcubies said: induced abortions by doctors are just a modern twist on the miscarriage survival mechanism if the conditions are deemed by the mother('s body) to be unfavorable to bring new life then no new life will be brought into those unfavorable conditions
so i suppose infanticide is just a modern twist on all the diseases which used to kill young children? if conditions are deemed unforvorable, the mother shouldn't be getting pregnent.
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Ythan
ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ


Registered: 08/08/97
Posts: 18,774
Loc: NY/MA/VT Borderlands
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5954258 - 08/11/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm totally pro-choice. Pro choosing to not get pregnant if you don't want a goddamn baby. It's 2006 people, we understand the basics of human reproduction. Nobody's forcing anyone to conceive children here. If you can't handle contraception or abstinence, I have no sympathy that an unwanted child might cause you an inconvenience. On the other hand I think birth control and the morning after pill should be available over the counter. It's a fucked up culture we live in that would rather kill babies than not make them in the first place.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Quote:
AlteredAgain said: I feel it should be the woman's choice.
If a woman could impregnate herself, I would agree completely. Getting pregnant requires the effort of two (or more?) people. I don't see why women should be singled out. The man who helped conceive the fetus should a have a say... although maybe not an equal say.
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RRRR
Rapture Ready


Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 170
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Ythan]
#5954424 - 08/11/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ythan said: I'm totally pro-choice. Pro choosing to not get pregnant if you don't want a goddamn baby. It's 2006 people, we understand the basics of human reproduction. Nobody's forcing anyone to conceive children here. If you can't handle contraception or abstinence, I have no sympathy that an unwanted child might cause you an inconvenience. On the other hand I think birth control and the morning after pill should be available over the counter. It's a fucked up culture we live in that would rather kill babies than not make them in the first place.
Ever heard of rape? I mean, c'mon people it's 2006 here
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: RRRR]
#5954567 - 08/11/06 05:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RRRR said:
Quote:
Ythan said: I'm totally pro-choice. Pro choosing to not get pregnant if you don't want a goddamn baby. It's 2006 people, we understand the basics of human reproduction. Nobody's forcing anyone to conceive children here. If you can't handle contraception or abstinence, I have no sympathy that an unwanted child might cause you an inconvenience. On the other hand I think birth control and the morning after pill should be available over the counter. It's a fucked up culture we live in that would rather kill babies than not make them in the first place.
Ever heard of rape? I mean, c'mon people it's 2006 here
rape accounts for less than 1% of all abortions. furthermore, rape is obviously a different situation because the mother did not choose to have sex. by having an abortion she's not failing to take responsibility for her actions, she's merely failing to take responsibility for someone elses action. i still think having the baby would be the most compassionate thing to do but i don't see much sense in bringing rape into this argument. 99% of the time, it not an issue. furthermore, id like to point out that 44 percent of women who had abortions in the U.S. had at least one previous abortion and according to the alan guttmacher institute at current rates, an estimated 43 percent of American women will have at least one abortion by the age of 45. these numbers are absurd. 44% of women seeking abortions are doing it for the second time? this is such blatant abuse its scarely believable. the fact of the matter is that abortion is being widely abused and mass numbers of unborn children are losing their lives as a result. what needs to stressed is personal resonsibility and compassion, not women's rights.
Edited by Deviate (08/11/06 05:49 PM)
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RRRR
Rapture Ready


Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 170
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Deviate]
#5954601 - 08/11/06 06:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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My point was merely to point out the fallacy of making absolute statements on a non-absolute issue.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5954608 - 08/11/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Politically, I'm pro-choice for harm reduction reasons. That is, I'd rather have a woman get an abortion from a trained doctor than have to use a coat hanger. On the moral level, I'm a little more ambiguous about the whole thing. Like Markos said, I think individual cases need to be judged on their merits. I personally find abortion to be disturbing, particularly after the first trimester. I would never recommend that someone get an abortion, but neither would I judge someone for having gotten one(though if they continually used abortions as a means of birth control, it would definitely lower my opinion of them).
--------------------
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5955018 - 08/11/06 09:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Re: morality
<<This is traditionally a political debate it seems because the issue of women's rights, privacy, etc. come into play, but lets look at it philosophically/spiritually (whichever you prefer). Is it murder? Is it amoral or immoral?>>
morality is what someone ( or those in power, or those who have convinced others that they have some special authority) think(s) other folks SHOULD do--that's all
if they convince others to go along, and belive that supernatural beings have decreed it, then few may question it, and nasty consequences may be devised for those who disobey.
Wether something is a good idea is a TOTALLY seperate question.
And
Wether it is possible to generalize about complex subjects, meaningfully are other questions...
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: laughingdog]
#5955353 - 08/11/06 11:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Your uncritical evaluation of morality is no more than moral relativism. For those whose morality is an extension of their metaphysics (whether Buddhism's 'Compassion' or Christianity's "God is love", or Islam's "Allah the Merciful, the Compassionate"), morality is grounded in the nature of Ultimate Reality. Even secular Utilitarian ethics, like the fictional Vulcan ethos: "The good of the many over the good of the few, or the one" has a logic and social interest as its grounding. It's puerile to derive morality from arbitrary authority. Morality is not about 'might makes right,' and true spiritual values do not derive from arbitrarily created doctrines.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Personally, I think abortion is justified only so long as you consume the fetus, or at least do some form of research, or perhaps a crazy experiment or ritual, with it. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
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Quote:
Personally, I think abortion is justified only so long as you consume the fetus
i like this idea. this should be a law.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5955847 - 08/12/06 07:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I tend to think in functional terms and so the real question should be: Does abortion serve the greater good?
Religion has a long history of causing untold human misery with the best of intentions. A fetus aborted by its mother is better off than one brought to consciousness out of religious beliefs only to live a life of abandonment and neglect.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Deviate]
#5955877 - 08/12/06 08:34 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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<<Your uncritical evaluation of morality is no more than moral relativism. >>
i was waiting for someone, (usually "from the right"?...right? ... these days) to get out the tired phrase "moral relativism"
Note your statement is not supported by any logic you provide. ( Or any attempt at dialogue whatsoever )...Therefore It is dogmatic. ie true because you say so...this is precisely the problem with "morality"
<<For those whose morality is an extension of their metaphysics (whether Buddhism's 'Compassion' or Christianity's "God is love", or Islam's "Allah the Merciful, the Compassionate"), morality is grounded in the nature of Ultimate Reality. >>
All "true belivers" make the same claim, (ie 'in the nature of Ultimate Reality') even though their belifes are very different....and they love to go door to door...rule by 'Divine Right'... ...or make the natives wear clothes...burn books...or witches...etc.
<<Even secular Utilitarian ethics, like the fictional Vulcan ethos: "The good of the many over the good of the few, or the one" has a logic and social interest as its grounding. It's puerile to derive morality from arbitrary authority.>>
WTF????... 'puerile' ? ...i guess this is some kind of name calling? Anyway-- morality is not even vaguely necessary...Gorillas don't go to war, or torture each other that is the whole point...totally unecessary correct me if i'm wrong, but I belive you will find this thousands of year old idea, in only one 'religion': Taoisim. A reading of Lao Tzu's very brief book usually proves most helpful
<<Morality is not about 'might makes right,'
unfortunately in practice, it is impossible to separate theory from practice ! ! ! !
...<<and true spiritual values do not derive from arbitrarily created doctrines. >>
never said they did...this is only word play once again: unfortunately in practice, it is impossible to separate theory from practice ! ! ! !
If there is such an animal (as "true spiritual values") how strange some folks feel they have to explain them and then legislate them for others...
...To raise the level of dicussion, more complex human phenomenon such as 'projection', and 'repression', need to be taken into account, after all we are post Darwin and Freud, by a few decades. Even Jung, mystical though he was, honured Freud's discovery of these underlying motivators, with his version of these aspects, which he called 'the Shadow'. ...Also to keep the discussion on a high level it is interesting to note that historically the consequences of disobeying morality are usually in the relam of punishment, with GUILT and EXILE (used by the Ancient Greeks and English) being among the milder forms. And punishment is never found with out the exercise of POWER, and strangley the punisher frequently ends up perpetuating the fault it claims to cure. Everyone knows you can't MAKE someone love you. ...And finally this leads us to psychology's next BIG discovery, about half a century, after Freud: 'positive reinforcement'. This is how all the animals at sea world and simlar places are trained to do amazing tricks and complex behaviors. You can't really punish a killer whale, or dolphin and get anywhere...or explain right and wrong to it...yet you can play with it if you are kind to it and intelligent and patient...these natural human qualities are not dependant on civilization and it's notions of codeifed 'morality'...
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: laughingdog]
#5955978 - 08/12/06 10:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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then again...metaphorically speaking the investigation of morality---with the HOPE of a single SOLUTION is a search for perfection/stability/comfort/security...etc.
whereas incarnation is precisely the descent from an unmanifested unified field into differentiation...ie. contradiction (ie. no secure answers) (from energy/conciousness into matter) or from "wu wei" into yin and yang dynamic interplay...( you know all the catch phrases: ...Heisenberg...electron clouds...uncertainty principle...quantum "nonsense"...impermananence... "Don't know mind"...E=MC squared...Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem...etc....)
( see for example: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=wu+wei&spell=1 )
...after all "in-carnation" means into flesh...(birth...conciousness identified with body)
whereas poetically speaking 'incarnation' is precisely the williness to deal with moment to moment chaos....feeling of being alive...monkey swinging from branch to branch wind blowing thru your hair...no helmet...breaking the law...feeling alive...90mph...
whereas metaphorically speaking the investigation of morality---with the HOPE of a single SOLUTION is a search for perfection/stability/comfort/security...etc. ie. a moment of FEAR, or more objectivelly speaking CONTRACTION not only into matter but metaphorically speaking all the way down into the DENSE FROZEN form of PERFECT organization called Crystals
I do not presume to tell others how to live: I am not a Catholic priest (doing a few boys on the side) strange how it goes with the territory... isn't it ? ? ?
to enjoy freedom others must be set free
to raise confident kids you must let them make mistakes
to discover who you are you must stop judgeing
both self and others
i didn't make this shit up it ain't "moral relativisim" give me a F*ing break
it's even in the bible belive it or not do we really need Ripley here?
but some folks love to argue about who should throw the first stone... .... and how heavy it should be ... and how to aim it add-infinitum
William Bouroughs and the Jonses ...he understood
but dont get me wrong I love fthe PERFECT organizations called Crystals it's just that i attempt not to confuse them with life
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: laughingdog]
#5956006 - 08/12/06 10:19 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm not a gorilla Machiavelli, are you? Taoism, according to Rene Guenon, was probably the esoteric core of Confucianism. Tao translates as 'The Way' in exactly the same Way that the early followers of Jesus referred to themselves as 'The Way' before they called themselves Christians. Those who Know do not live from a lower center of manipulation (the same Indo-Aryan root for Manipura Chakra - Power Center). Those whose morals are the psychospiritual extension of metaphysics grounded in detached love (agape) or compassion (karuna), do not murder for their faith - obviously. It would be best if you knew the posters here just a little bit before you burst in pontificating.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
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more name calling ...characterising what i post as: "pontificating" rather than taking time to deal with many interesting individual points raised... ....and once again you fail to get that:
<<unfortunately in practice, it is impossible to separate theory from practice ! ! ! ! >>
<<would be best if you knew the posters here just a little bit before you burst in pontificating.>>
GEE-- what what great comfort to belong to the "in crowd" you presume yourself to be part of--always wanted group support myself...as GOD was a little hard to hear... pardon the sarcasm, rymemes with orgasam...pray tell is this moral?
from my previous post please answer or desist:
<<For example: Doctors on the battlefield must decide whom to operate on first...does this make them murderers or healers? Will they ever know if they are making the right decisions?>>
...Yet thousands of American humans apparently watch TV court shows..>>>.
Ahh the joys of judgement and certainty...too bad i'm a boring tea totaler that doesn't belong to the in crowd...Ahh the joys of judgement...almost as good or - gasam ....but only with approved USDA prime subjects
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: laughingdog]
#5956295 - 08/12/06 12:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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This forum has seen its share of cynical, sarcastic posters who take issue with small points, like descriptive words such as "pontificating," instead of the global intent of the post. Picking up on such descriptors, they (as a group) tend to personalize the response as an attack, and always fail to step back psychologiclly and ask why the responder chose such a word. If it's not an attack, one need not respond defensively.
I was not identifying myself with the group. I was identifying myself as the poster in question. I do not presume to assume (you seem to like rhymes) any exalted status at Shroomery.org. I have more detractors, it would seem, than supporters. I have never had "group support" in any context myself, just a few treasured souls who recognize me when I speak Truth.
You are asking 'me' about battlefield triage? Triage depends upon the accurate assessment of the severity of wounds plus the awareness that limited medical attention is available. Those who are dying or most likely to perish must be overlooked in favor of those who can 'probably' be saved. I called off the Code Blue for my dying mother after witnessing rapid, mutiple coronary failures. I knew her medical history of vascular disease, coronaries and stroke, and I was aware of the several heart attacks in the last 24 hours. I insisted that the physicians stop challenging themselves to 'save' this human life with invasive catheterizations, and to allow her to die in peace. I threw them out, held her hand and spoke softly and calmly to her until her grip relaxed and the monitor was a flatline. I noted the time of death for the young physician, and I assured HIM that we did the right thing (I had power of attorney in this matter). I knew my mother was dying from irreparable damage to cardiac muscle and I wanted her to die in peace. Did I kill my mother?!! The decision here was mine and it was final, so my question to you was rhetorical and whatever your answer irrelevant 10 years after the event. It's kind of like the Schrodinger's Cat Paradox.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5956310 - 08/12/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I tend to think in functional terms and so the real question should be: Does abortion serve the greater good?
Religion has a long history of causing untold human misery with the best of intentions. A fetus aborted by its mother is better off than one brought to consciousness out of religious beliefs only to live a life of abandonment and neglect.
Is this honestly the case for even a majority of abortions? Another rather disturbing phenomena right now is sex-selective abortion, where a fetus is terminated because the parents are not content with the gender of their growing child. Then there is abortion that stems from none other than studpidity when unprepared couples brazenly have unprotected sex. Then there's the young would-be mothers and fathers who want to enjoy several more years of parenthood-free youth as opposed to taking responsibility for their benighted sexual behaviors. Not to mention those who are so encultured and dense that they use abortion as a kind of lazyman's birth control. I'm a bit hard pressed to believe that there is any greater good in this particular demographic of abortions. Some late term abortions have even included the killing of fetuses who were at the stage of consistent thumb-sucking in the womb.
The question is, how many abortions are done out of necessity and how many are merely a convenience? Are the vast majority of aborted babies potentially facing a life of poverty or simply a childhood with grandma and grandpa as caregivers? Don't get me wrong, politically I have something of a pro-choice stance for the protection of women and I am all in favor of growing hearts, livers and lungs from stem cell life. But it seems to me that those who ardently defend abortion at any whim may at times even have a moral cognitive inconsistency to justify very disturbing circumstances of fetal termination.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5956331 - 08/12/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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The "pro-life" agenda is, in all true reality, just a vile anti-Tlaloc secret organization. If we don't abort fetuses, it ain't never gonna rain again. "Pro-lifers" are against life.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
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Are you impressed that I fit that all on one line?
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Are you impressed that I fit that all on one line?
You must have a different screen resolution than me.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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This forum has seen its share of cynical, sarcastic posters who take issue with small points, like descriptive words such as "pontificating," instead of the global intent of the post.
This forum, and particularly this thread, is about philosophy. In that context (every other context too, really), only the points and ideas are of relevance. Cluttering up the discussion with personalisms dilutes the debate and makes it harder to argue points coherently because the poster who you continue to call names has to spend time deflecting your ad hominems rather than addressing your points.
So why do it? Especially you, who of all the regulars here, should know better? If a 'pontificator' says the sky is red, don't tell him he's wrong because he pontificates. Tell him he's wrong because the sky is blue.
And by the way, personalisms are against the RULES OF THIS FORUM, though it seems they're never enforced. 
OK, sorry for the OT but I think this needed saying.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5958499 - 08/13/06 06:06 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Especially you, who of all the regulars here, should know better?
Personalism.
Apparently Mushmanthemanic uses a projector for a screen. 
When I was in Norge, the family I was staying with had an expensive projector for their media devices in the living room (yes, not just a television, he had a living room computer as well... ). It was fucking sweet. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5958501 - 08/13/06 06:08 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Is this honestly the case for even a majority of abortions?
Well, I don't know the statistics, but I do know that there are way too many kids in foster care than there should be. And the older kids get, the harder it is to get them adopted because most adoptive parents understandably want to experience as much of the child's entire life as possible.
I'm as certain as I ever am of anything that up until the second trimester (and probably quite a bit beyond), a fetus has no consciousness, memory, or sensation of pain. This is borne out by neurological studies of fetuses. In that sense, I see it as only a very sophisticated array of chemical nanomachines, but not yet a human. There are opposing religious view points about when a human comes into existence, but they are all based in emotion rather than facts and so I lend them little weight.
If the future-human is ultimately unwanted, it's in the future-humans best interests to prevent it from coming into existence in the first place, IMO. I hold this belief out of compassion, not convenience.
As to your points re aborting the 'wrong' sex, I think it's a despicable act, but morality should never be legislated.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5958557 - 08/13/06 07:41 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Fearing to repeat myself, (in fear of), I must say:
If they can make them... Then, .. they can take them!?
Had a "nicer" 'ring to it' last time I thought it though...
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5959131 - 08/13/06 01:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Do you feel better now?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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What is that supposed to mean?
And for the record I agree with Diploid.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5959167 - 08/13/06 01:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ask any pro-lifer and see if they support capital punishment, They seem to like to hold the moral highground if its in their favor.
And do any of you remember when you were a fetus or sperm or any genetic material, no, didnt think so. So how would you know you were being aborted.
I think abortion is more of a religious dogma "non-issue" then a straight moral issue.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5959201 - 08/13/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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What do you mean "What do you mean?"? He got his objection off his chest. I read it and will take it under consideration for making changes in future responses. It doesn't matter which point you are in agreement with, but why not express whatever it is in your own words? Even in agreement, it's another perspective.
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Schwammel
Auk

Registered: 12/10/05
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abortion is great
lets say hitler killed ten million people
well the way I see it he's going be reborn and aborted that many times...
and if I'm wrong waht's it matter!
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
The_Red_Crayon said: Ask any pro-lifer and see if they support capital punishment
Having gone to a Catholic School, I've met several people who are opposed to both abortion and capital punishment.
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capliberty
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
#5959421 - 08/13/06 02:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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--------[] going against nature is playin a dangerous game []-----------
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porcupine
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: capliberty]
#5959669 - 08/13/06 04:07 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ask any pro-lifer and see if they support capital punishment, They seem to like to hold the moral highground if its in their favor.
i'm "pro-life" and i don't support capital punishment. and furthermore, this is a senseless comparison because a an unborn baby hasn't commited murder. it's perfectly fine to be against and abortion and in support of the death penalty.
And do any of you remember when you were a fetus or sperm or any genetic material, no, didnt think so. So how would you know you were being aborted.
I think abortion is more of a religious dogma "non-issue" then a straight moral issue.
so i suppose its alright to kill someone with anmesia or someone in a coma or in deep sleep? afterall, they'll never know the difference.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
#5959710 - 08/13/06 04:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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so i suppose its alright to kill someone with anmesia or someone in a coma or in deep sleep? afterall, they'll never know the difference.
That's not at all the same thing. A person in a coma is already a realized human being with memories, relationships, accomplishments, and hopes for the future even if he's not conscious.
A clump of cells with no functioning brain or other neurological structures that has never achieved consciousness is not yet human.
Besides, I think Crayon's point goes to the slew of pro-lifers, like George Bush and company, who think women should be forcibly prevented from having abortions, but think nothing of killing REAL, LIVING children on the other side of the planet with bombs. It's a valid point.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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porcupine
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5959752 - 08/13/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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if he's not consciousss none of his "hopes for the future" exist. he's just a clump of cells. sure, he may have been consciouss at one time but so what? a dead body was consciouss at one time.
Quote:
Besides, I think Crayon's point goes to the slew of pro-lifers, like George Bush and company, who think women should be forcibly prevented from having abortions, but think nothing of killing REAL, LIVING children on the other side of the planet with bombs. It's a valid point.
first of all that's not the point he made, second of all, you can't generalize all pro lifers as being like george bush.
Edited by porcupine (08/13/06 04:31 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
#5959792 - 08/13/06 04:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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if he's not consciousss none of his "hopes for the future" exist.
Of course they exist. Going to sleep doesn't erase who you are. But a clump of cells is just a clump of cells.
first of all that's not the point he made
Well, that's how I read it, but I won't speak for him. He can chime in if he likes.
second of all, you can't generalize all pro lifers as being like george bush.
I never said all pro-lifers are like Bush, but a good many of them are. You are aware that a significant fraction of his base is religious conservatives, no?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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porcupine
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5959874 - 08/13/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: if he's not consciousss none of his "hopes for the future" exist.
Of course they exist. Going to sleep doesn't erase who you are. But a clump of cells is just a clump of cells.
sure it does, im not aware of who i am when im in deep sleep. i wouldn't know the difference if someone killed me.
Quote:
first of all that's not the point he made
Well, that's how I read it, but I won't speak for him. He can chime in if he likes.
second of all, you can't generalize all pro lifers as being like george bush.
I never said all pro-lifers are like Bush, but a good many of them are. You are aware that a significant fraction of his base is religious conservatives, no?
he said "ask any pro-lifer", that's why i took it he was generalizing. secondly, the fact that bush and some of his followers may be hypocrites has nothing to do with the validity of the pro life position.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
#5960205 - 08/13/06 06:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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sure it does, im not aware of who i am when im in deep sleep. i wouldn't know the difference if someone killed me.
Alright, you're just arguing semantics now.
When I go to sleep, the college degree I have hanging on the wall doesn't vanish. Neither do my friends and family or the relationships I have with them. Neither does my car or my bank account or my vacation plans for which I've already bought tickets. Sure, I'm not conscious for a few hours, but that doesn't mean I cease to exist. And as it happens, I frequently have lucid dreams, so even though I may not be conscious of my surroundings during those dreams, I'm still aware and I still exist.
A lump of molecules that has never been conscious has none of this.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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musicturkey
Mitakuye Oyasin


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5960340 - 08/13/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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i see this "clump of cells" as human, and I also believe it shouldn't be denied its right to live. I've participated in a handful of protests outside the "slaughter mills" I can't believe we as a human race can be so uncivilized, if you can't afford it put the baby up for adoption.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: musicturkey]
#5960434 - 08/13/06 08:32 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Why do you care what someone else decides to do with their body? Do you really believe you have the right to decide this for others? Isn't that a tad arrogant and egotistical? They aren't harming you are they? Why isn't it enough to live your own life and let others do the same? In other words what business is it of yours? Are you so sure you are right about everything you believe? Whats really behind all of this wanting to control others?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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capliberty
Stranger


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5960473 - 08/13/06 08:44 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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n other words what business is it of yours? Are you so sure you are right about everything you believe? Whats really behind all of this wanting to control others
I got one for you, what business is it of mine, I guess its none of my business if its not my situation, [but] what if the female get knocked up and her boyfriend wants to keep the child thats growing in her womb, but her mom talks her into getting an abortion because she thinks its the responsible thing to do, so basically she decides to respect her moms wishes and get an abortion, so basically nullifies any decision by the father in keeping the child, he has no choice or power to keep his own child, even though he would want to keep he/she/it, the unborn child, to me its kinda not fair, looking from the fathers prospective to not have a choice on the matter
Edited by capliberty (08/13/06 08:45 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: capliberty]
#5960532 - 08/13/06 08:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's nature. Men don't have babies so they don't get that choice. It's the womans choice and that's just the way it is in nature. Why fight that?
Millions of organisms of all types live and die each second and nobody worries too much. We start to worry when we get egotistical about what is mine. But nothing belongs to us except the experience we have living our own personal life. And I think thats an illusion too. All this other attachment is just so much cultural programming IMO.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: musicturkey]
#5960691 - 08/13/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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i see this "clump of cells" as human
But that is a belief based in emotion, not rationality or facts. That clump of cells isn't viable outside the mother. It has no brain. It has no spine, no nervous system, and it isn't sentient.
The emotional belief that somehow an egg and sperm aren't a human being but when they link up a web of electromagnetic forces that hold the two groups of genetic atoms together they somehow, magically, become something different is irrational.
Exactly when a human comes into existence is a fuzzy line somewhere after the brain has developed and the clump of cells begins to function independently of the mother to some extent.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (08/13/06 09:44 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5960698 - 08/13/06 09:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Why do you care what someone else decides to do with their body? Do you really believe you have the right to decide this for others? Isn't that a tad arrogant and egotistical? They aren't harming you are they? Why isn't it enough to live your own life and let others do the same? In other words what business is it of yours? Are you so sure you are right about everything you believe? Whats really behind all of this wanting to control others?
Although I disagree with musicturkey's views, I can definitely understand where he's coming from. If I believed, as pro-lifers do, that a fetus or embryo was equivalent to a baby outside of the womb, then I too would be appalled at the practice of abortion, and would do everything in my power to stop it.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5960718 - 08/13/06 09:42 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Why isn't it enough to live your own life and let others do the same? In other words what business is it of yours?
To be fair to the religious crowd, they see prohibition of abortion as the protection of a baby. If I saw someone hurting a baby, I too would step in and stop it if I could.
The problem is that they (pro-lifers) see an intricate assemblage of molecules as a human out of their religious dogma instead of look at the hard earned knowledge given us by medical science to step above dogma and come to opinions based on the facts, not the teachings of the church.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5960741 - 08/13/06 09:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't think you necessarily need religion to think that that clump of cells is a human. It has human DNA, afterall. The point at which someone becomes a human is a tricky question, and conception seems no more arbitrary an answer than anything else. Science hasn't really attempted to answer that question.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
#5960763 - 08/13/06 09:50 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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An egg and sperm each also have DNA, but few people think they're human. That's not a good criteria for deciding if a thing is human.
The distinguishing feature that makes us human exists in our brain. Until that develops, calling a brainless mass of cells a human is like calling an egg or sperm human.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Posts: 23,576
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5960785 - 08/13/06 09:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: The distinguishing feature that makes us human exists in our brain.
Is that the official scientific answer, or just your arbitrary assumption? Does anything with a brain count as human? Surely you wouldn't consider a dog to be human. Does the brain have to be at a certain stage of advancement? Afterall, a newborn infant's brain isn't fully developed either. And self-awareness doesn't really develop until later in the child's formative years.
Your answer is as arbitrary as any. And for this reason, I believe that abortion is an issue on which equally reasonable people can disagree strongly(though there's plenty of unreasonable people yelling on both sides).
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
#5960807 - 08/13/06 09:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Is that the official scientific answer, or just your arbitrary assumption?
It's my opinion. Everything in this thread is opinion.
Does anything with a brain count as human?
No, anything with a functional human brain counts as human. A headless body kept alive with a heart-lung machine isn't human any more than a headless week old embryo.
Afterall, a newborn infant's brain isn't fully developed either.
But it is viable independent of its mother. It is already learning, looking around, hearing, and forming neural connections. Besides, I'm not suggesting a near-term fetus is not human, but I do say a week old fetus with no hint of a brain is not a human. Where the line is crossed is very fuzzy.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5960813 - 08/13/06 10:02 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: No, anything with a human brain counts as human.
Why would the same not be true of DNA?
Quote:
But it is viable independent of its mother. It is already learning, looking around, hearing, and forming neural connections. Besides, I'm not suggesting a near-term fetus is not human, but I do say a week old fetus with no hint of a brain is not a human. Where the line is crossed is very fuzzy.
While I agree, I still think the distinction is rather arbitrary. I see no reason why a brain should be the determining factor here.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
#5960822 - 08/13/06 10:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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While I agree, I still think the distinction is rather arbitrary. I see no reason why a brain should be the determining factor here.
Because a human missing a kidney is still a human. Same missing a liver, or a leg, or even a heart using an artificial one. But (metaphysics aside) no one exists without their brain.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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porcupine
Stranger

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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5960908 - 08/13/06 10:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Why do you care what someone else decides to do with their body?
so if a pregnant mother uses copious amounts of cocaine and alcohol, you wouldn't care? if not, fine but i dont think its that difficult to understand why someone might.
Edited by porcupine (08/13/06 10:34 PM)
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Apparently Mushmanthemanic uses a projector for a screen.
A projector for a screen? Preposterous!
I've righteously decided to take the higher path and ignore this violent personalism directed towards my monitor and its mighty resolution! 
Anyhoo... (...I never say that word in real life, honestly...)
So, what are the consequences of allowing abortions? It seems as if nearly everyone, with the exclusion of Diploid's first comment on this subject, has taken a moral or deontological approach. Whether you believe it is immoral to allow abortions or that is moral acceptable, this judgement cannot be verified in any empiric sense. It is probably based on a secular or, more likely, religious belief system that has the same problem. Morality is based in faith, it is assumed, and consequentially it's up for grabs.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Anyhoo
I don't think that's a real word.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (08/15/06 06:34 AM)
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Amber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand

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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5962079 - 08/14/06 09:05 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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A clump of cells, a fetus, or whatever stage we are referring to, whether or not it has reached 'life' or official 'humanhood' isn't the most important question for me. Either way, this clump of cells still has a potential for life. It will be born and grow to be a human with a life and all of the wonderful things that come with that (yes, it is possible it could miscarry or some other malady could present itself, but you know what I mean). To abort is to stop this life from coming to be.
On the other hand, further down the line, each sperm and each egg has its own possible potentiality for life, but it is impossible to see each of these potential lives born.
Where to draw the line?
I am undecided on the moral right or wrongness of abortion.
*Aside: I am a vegan and I'm part of a few vegan online communities (if you don't know, a vegan does not eat meat or ANY animal products at all). You'd think someone with so much respect for life would be against abortion. I made a post in one of the communities and almost all of them were pro-choice and angry that I would suggest there seemed to be opposition between being prochoice and vegan. Go figure. (I think many 'vegans' are more concerned with being against mainstream cultural and being anti-right wing than they are with living their own personal morals)*
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The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
#5962138 - 08/14/06 09:37 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
first of all that's not the point he made, second of all, you can't generalize all pro lifers as being like george bush.
May not, but both are very alike. I find lots of pro-lifers are also for the war in Iraq, I guess if thousands of people are dieing out of sight out of mind... but heaven forbid a aborted fetus.
I really hate to say this to most people, but in the animal kingdom do you know what happens to animals that overpopulate. They run out of food, and are destroyed by disease, overpopulation destroys the balance of nature. Many scientists say that by 2100 the US will only have a sustainable population of 500 million people. That is only 200 million away.
Overpopulation hastens the spread of diseases, If people cant control the amount of new humans being birthed into this country, then believe me Earth will find a way to keep the Human population down.
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RRRR
Rapture Ready


Registered: 07/26/06
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"Over population" isn't a question of human population, but rather resource management.
Believe it or not, but population rates are actually declining. They have been for the past years.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: RRRR]
#5962207 - 08/14/06 10:07 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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According to the UN its a serious problem
Quote:
The growing world population
The world is in the midst of an unprecedented expansion of human numbers. It took hundreds of thousands of years for our species to reach a population level of 10 million, only 10,000 years ago. This number grew to 100 million people about 2,000 years ago and to 2.5 billion by 1950. Within less than the span of a single lifetime, it has more than doubled to 5.5 billion in 1993.
This accelerated population growth resulted from rapidly lowered death rates (particularly infant and child mortality rates), combined with sustained high birth rates. Success in reducing death rates is attributable to several factors: increases in food production and distribution, improvements in public health (water and sanitation) and in medical technology (vaccines and antibiotics), along with gains in education and standards of living within many developing nations.
Over the last 30 years, many regions of the world have also dramatically reduced birth rates. Some have already achieved family sizes small enough, if maintained, to result eventually in a halt to population growth. These successes have led to a slowing of the world's rate of population increase. The shift from high to low death and birth rates has been called the "demographic transition."
The rate at which the demographic transition progresses worldwide will determine the ultimate level of the human population. The lag between downward shifts of death and birth rates may be many decades or even several generations, and during these periods population growth will continue inexorably. We face the prospect of a further doubling of the population within the next half century. Most of this growth will take place in developing countries.
Consider three hypothetical scenarios* for the levels of human population in the century ahead:
Fertility declines within sixty years from the current rate of 3.3 to a global replacement average of 2.1 children per woman. The current population momentum would lead to at least 11 billion people before leveling off at the end of the 21st century. Fertility reduces to an average of 1.7 children per woman early in the next century. Human population growth would peak at 7.8 billion persons in the middle of the 21st century and decline slowly thereafter. Fertility declines to no lower than 2.5 children per woman. Global population would grow to 19 billion by the year 2100, and to 28 billion by 2150. The actual outcome will have enormous implications for the human condition and for the natural environment on which all life depends.
Key determinants of population growth
High fertility rates have historically been strongly correlated with poverty, high childhood mortality rates, low status and educational levels of women, deficiencies in reproductive health services, and inadequate availability and acceptance of contraceptives. Falling fertility rates and the demographic transition are generally associated with improved standards of living, such as increased per capita incomes, increased life expectancy, lowered infant mortality, increased adult literacy, and higher rates of female education and employment.
Even with improved economic conditions, nations, regions, and societies will experience different demographic patterns due to varying cultural influences. The value placed upon large families (especially among underprivileged rural populations in less developed countries who benefit least from the process of development), the assurance of security for the elderly, the ability of women to control reproduction, and the status and rights of women within families and within societies are significant cultural factors affecting family size and the demand for family planning services.
Even with a demand for family planning services, the adequate availability of and access to family planning and other reproductive health services are essential in facilitating slowing of the population growth rate. Also, access to education and the ability of women to determine their own economic security influence their reproductive decisions.
Population growth, resource consumption, and the environment
Throughout history and especially during the twentieth century, environmental degradation has primarily been a product of our efforts to secure improved standards of food, clothing, shelter, comfort, and recreation for growing numbers of people. The magnitude of the threat to the ecosystem is linked to human population size and resource use per person. Resource use, waste production and environmental degradation are accelerated by population growth. They are further exacerbated by consumption habits, certain technological developments, and particular patterns of social organization and resource management.
As human numbers further increase, the potential for irreversible changes of far reaching magnitude also increases. Indicators of severe environmental stress include the growing loss of biodiversity, increasing greenhouse gas emissions, increasing deforestation worldwide, stratospheric ozone depletion, acid rain, loss of topsoil, and shortages of water, food, and fuel-wood in many parts of the world.
While both developed and developing countries have contributed to global environmental problems, developed countries with 85 percent of the gross world product and 23 percent of its population account for the largest part of mineral and fossil-fuel consumption, resulting in significant environmental impacts. With current technologies, present levels of consumption by the developed world are likely to lead to serious negative consequences for all countries. This is especially apparent with the increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide and trace gases that have accompanied industrialization, which have the potential for changing global climate and raising sea level.
In both rich and poor countries, local environmental problems arise from direct pollution from energy use and other industrial activities, inappropriate agricultural practices, population concentration, inadequate environmental management, and inattention to environmental goals. When current economic production has been the overriding priority and inadequate attention has been given to environmental protection, local environmental damage has led to serious negative impacts on health and major impediments to future economic growth. Restoring the environment, even where still possible, is far more expensive and time consuming than managing it wisely in the first place; even rich countries have difficulty in affording extensive environmental remediation efforts.
The relationships between human population, economic development, and the natural environment are complex. Examination of local and regional case studies reveals the influence and interaction of many variables. For example, environmental and economic impacts vary with population composition and distribution, and with rural-urban and international migrations. Furthermore, poverty and lack of economic opportunities stimulate faster population growth and increase incentives for environmental degradation by encouraging exploitation of marginal resources.
Both developed and developing countries face a great dilemma in reorienting their productive activities in the direction of a more harmonious interaction with nature. This challenge is accentuated by the uneven stages of development. If all people of the world consumed fossil fuels and other natural resources at the rate now characteristic of developed countries (and with current technologies), this would greatly intensify our already unsustainable demands on the biosphere. Yet development is a legitimate expectation of less developed and transitional countries.
The earth is finite
The growth of population over the last half century was for a time matched by similar world-wide increases in utilizable resources. However, in the last decade food production from both land and sea has declined relative to population growth. The area of agricultural land has shrunk, both through soil erosion and reduced possibilities of irrigation. The availability of water is already a constraint in some countries. These are warnings that the earth is finite, and that natural systems are being pushed ever closer to their limits.
Quality of life and the environment
Our common goal is improving the quality of life for all people, those living today and succeeding generations, ensuring their social, economic, and personal well-being with guarantees of fundamental human rights; and allowing them to live harmoniously with a protected environment. We believe that this goal can be achieved, provided we are willing to undertake the requisite social change. Given time, political will, and intelligent use of science and technology, human ingenuity can remove many constraints on improving human welfare worldwide, finding substitutes for wasteful practices, and protecting the natural environment.
But time is short and appropriate policy decisions are urgently needed. The ability of humanity to reap the benefits of its ingenuity depends on its skill in governance and management, and on strategies for dealing with problems such as widespread poverty, increased numbers of aged persons, inadequate health care and limited educational opportunities for large groups of people, limited capital for investment, environmental degradation in every region of the world, and unmet needs for family planning services in both developing and developed countries. In our judgement, humanity's ability to deal successfully with its social, economic, and environmental problems will require the achievement of zero population growth within the lifetime of our children.
Human reproductive health
The timing and spacing of pregnancies are important for the health of the mother, her children, and her family. Most maternal deaths are due to unsafe practices in terminating pregnancies, a lack of readily available services for high-risk pregnancies, and women having too many children or having them too early and too late in life.
Millions of people still do not have adequate access to family planning services and suitable contraceptives. Only about one-half of married women of reproductive age are currently practicing contraception. Yet as the director-general of UNICEF put it, ''Family planning could bring more benefits to more people at less cost than any other single technology now available to the human race." Existing contraceptive methods could go far toward alleviating the unmet need if they were available and used in sufficient numbers, through a variety of channels and distribution, sensitively adapted to local needs.
But most contraceptives are for use by women, who consequently bear the risks to health. The development of contraceptives for male use continues to lag. Better contraceptives are needed for both men and women, but developing new contraceptive approaches is slow and financially unattractive to industry. Further work is needed on an ideal spectrum of contraceptive methods that are safe, efficacious, easy to use and deliver, reasonably priced, user-controlled and responsive, appropriate for special populations and age cohorts, reversible, and at least some of which protect against sexually transmitted diseases, including AIDS.
Reducing fertility rates, however, cannot be achieved merely by providing more contraceptives. The demand for these services has to be addressed. Even when family planning and other reproductive health services are widely available, the social and economic status of women affects individual decisions to use them. The ability of women to make decisions about family size is greatly affected by gender roles within society and in sexual relationships. Ensuring equal opportunity for women in all aspects of society is crucial.
Thus all reproductive health services must be implemented as a part of broader strategies to raise the quality of human life. They must include the following:
Efforts to reduce and eliminate gender-based inequalities. Women and men should have equal opportunities and responsibilities in sexual, social, and economic life. Provision of convenient family planning and other reproductive health services with a wide variety of safe contraceptive options. irrespective of an individual's ability to pay. Encouragement of voluntary approaches to family planning and elimination of unsafe and coercive practices. Development policies that address basic needs such as clean water, sanitation, broad primary health care measures and education; and that foster empowerment of the poor and women. "The adoption of a smaller family norm, with consequent decline in total fertility, should not be viewed only in demographic terms. It means that people, and particularly women, are empowered and are taking control of their fertility and the planning of their lives; it means that children are born by choice, not by chance, and that births are better planned; and it means that families are able to invest relatively more in a smaller number of beloved children, trying to prepare them for a better future."*
Sustainability of the natural world as everyone's responsibility
In addressing environmental problems, all countries face hard choices. This is particularly so when it is perceived that there are short-term tradeoffs between economic growth and environmental protection, and where there are limited financial resources. But the downside risks to the earth—our environmental life support system—over the next generation and beyond are too great to ignore. Current trends in environmental degradation from human activities combined with the unavoidable increase in global population will take us into unknown territory.
Other factors, such as inappropriate governmental policies, also contribute in nearly every case. Many environmental problems in both rich and poor countries appear to be the result of policies that are misguided even when viewed on short-term economic grounds. If a longer-term view is taken, environmental goals assume an even higher priority.
The prosperity and technology of the industrialized countries give them greater opportunities and greater responsibility for addressing environmental problems worldwide. Their resources make it easier to forestall and to ameliorate local environmental problems. Developed countries need to become more efficient in both resource use and environmental protection, and to encourage an ethic that eschews wasteful consumption. If prices, taxes, and regulatory policies include environmental costs, consumption habits will be influenced. The industrialized countries need to assist developing countries and communities with funding and expertise in combating both global and local environmental problems. Mobilizing "technology for environment" should be an integral part of this new ethic of sustainable development.
For all governments it is essential to incorporate environmental goals at the outset in legislation, economic planning, and priority setting; and to provide appropriate incentives for public and private institutions, communities, and individuals to operate in environmentally benign ways. Tradeoffs between environmental and economic goals can be reduced through wise policies. For dealing with global environmental problems, all countries of the world need to work collectively through treaties and conventions, as has occurred with such issues as global climate change and biodiversity, and to develop innovative financing mechanisms that facilitate environmental protection.
What science and technology can contribute toward enhancing the human prospect
As scientists cognizant of the history of scientific progress and aware of the potential of science for contributing to human welfare, it is our collective judgement that continuing population growth poses a great risk to humanity. Furthermore, it is not prudent to rely on science and technology alone to solve problems created by rapid population growth, wasteful resource consumption, and poverty.
The natural and social sciences are nevertheless crucial for developing new understanding so that governments and other institutions can act more effectively, and for developing new options for limiting population growth, protecting the natural environment, and improving the quality of human life.
Scientists, engineers, and health professionals should study and provide advice on:
Cultural, social, economic, religious, educational, and political factors that affect reproductive behavior, family size, and successful family planning. Conditions for human development, including the impediments that result from economic inefficiencies: social inequalities; and ethnic, class, or gender biases. Global and local environmental change (affecting climate, biodiversity, soils, water, air), its causes (including the roles of poverty, population growth, economic growth, technology, national and international politics), and policies to mitigate its effects. Strategies and tools for improving all aspects of education and human resource development, with special attention to women. Improved family planning programs, contraceptive options for both sexes, and other reproductive health services, with special attention to needs of women; and improved general primary health care, especially maternal and child health care. Transitions to economies that provide increased human welfare with less consumption of energy and materials. Improved mechanisms for building indigenous capacity in the natural sciences, engineering, medicine, social sciences, and management in developing countries, including an increased capability of conducting integrated interdisciplinary assessments of societal issues. Technologies and strategies for sustainable development (agriculture, energy, resource use, pollution control, materials recycling, environmental management and protection). Networks, treaties, and conventions that protect the global commons. Strengthened world-wide exchanges of scientists in education, training, and research. Action is needed now
Humanity is approaching a crisis point with respect to the interlocking issues of population, environment, and development. Scientists today have the opportunity and responsibility to mount a concerted effort to confront our human predicament. But science and technology can only provide tools and blueprints for action and social change. It is the governments and international decision-makers, including those meeting in Cairo next September at the United Nations International Conference on Population and Development, who hold the key to our future. We urge them to take incisive action now and to adopt an integrated policy on population and sustainable development on a global scale. With each year's delay the problems become more acute. Let 1994 be remembered as the year when the people of the world decided to act together for the benefit of future generations.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: RRRR]
#5962227 - 08/14/06 10:14 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Believe it or not, but population rates are actually declining.
Actually, it's the rate of increase in the rate of growth that's declining. The rate of growth is still staggeringly high.
My guess is that the only reason the rate of increase in the rate of growth is dropping is because there are already so many people in the undeveloped world, and so many are born every day that they're starving to death faster than they're being born.
With that in mind, ask yourself which is better: aborting a clump of cells, or bringing it into the world to likely starve?
By the way (and it keeps coming to this, doesn't it) much of the blame for the misery of malnutrition in the world belongs squarely at the door of the Church whose moronic popes insist that using a condom or a pill to prevent conception is a sin against God.
And, astonishingly, John Paul, in a mass he gave in Brazil a few years ago, asked the throngs gathered to have more children because there is a shortage of new young people joining the church! I'm not making this up.
These are the same people who have convinced (brainwashed?) huge masses in the developed world that abortion is a sin, and for the same reasons.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (08/14/06 10:28 AM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5962270 - 08/14/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: While I agree, I still think the distinction is rather arbitrary. I see no reason why a brain should be the determining factor here.
Because a human missing a kidney is still a human. Same missing a liver, or a leg, or even a heart using an artificial one. But (metaphysics aside) no one exists without their brain.
A human without a brain still exists. They simply don't live. And if the scientific reductionist view is right, then there's no reason why an artificial brain shouldn't be possible. In fact, if we're talking about the brain of a fetus or even a newborn infant, then it shouldn't be that hard at all to duplicate.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
#5962372 - 08/14/06 11:09 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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A human without a brain still exists.
The human body exists, but the essence of the person doesn't.
And if the scientific reductionist view is right, then there's no reason why an artificial brain shouldn't be possible.
If a seemingly-sentient artificial brain is ever created by science (I say seemingly because there is ultimately no way to know with certainty if another is sentient), then I'd defend it as I would any other seemingly-sentient being.
I see a clear distinction between a chemical system and a sentient thing, be it chemical, mechanical, or electronic. A sentient thing is deserving of the same respect all life deserves, but chemical systems are just things.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5962403 - 08/14/06 11:19 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: A human without a brain still exists.
The human body exists, but the essence of the person doesn't.
The "essence"? If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were starting to talk like a mystic. 
Quote:
And if the scientific reductionist view is right, then there's no reason why an artificial brain shouldn't be possible.
If a seemingly-sentient artificial brain is ever created by science (I say seemingly because there is ultimately no way to know with certainty if another is sentient), then I'd defend it as I would any other seemingly-sentient being.
I see a clear distinction between a chemical system and a sentient thing, be it chemical, mechanical, or electronic. A sentient thing is deserving of the same respect all life deserves, but chemical systems are just things.
Wow, more metaphysics. I'd always presumed you were a materialist(in the philosophical sense), yet for some reason you seem to think that sentience cannot be reduced to a chemical system. Interesting...
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Diploid
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
#5962426 - 08/14/06 11:29 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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The "essence"? If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were starting to talk like a mystic.
It's the best word I can come up with to describe something that currently can't be defined. That's not to say I believe it will never be defined. I think it may be one day and then there will be new words for it. 
you seem to think that sentience cannot be reduced to a chemical system.
I don't think that sentience CAN be reduced to chemistry. I think it springs forth from a part of nature that may be permanently beyond the reach of science in the same way that the cutting edge of physics (strings) is approaching a barrier that may be impossible to breach. Maybe. We're still way too scientifically-primitive to know, but we're making progress.
This isn't a novel idea. It's been a long-held belief in science that things like Heisenberg Uncertainty is absolutely unbreakable, even in principle, in the same way that no scientific advance can ever make 2 + 2 = 5.
That said, it may be possible to harness deep things in nature to create an artificial sentience even if we don't, and never can, entirely understand how it works. We make atomic bombs with an incomplete understanding of the atom, after all.
Check out this thread I started here a few years ago for more on why I think these things may be so.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5962452 - 08/14/06 11:39 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Just wondering: What level of sentience is required to make the killing of something immoral? Afterall, even a 2 year old human child is no more intelligent than an adult chimpanzee. A human fetus' brain is hardly distinguishable from the brains of other animal fetuses, just as fertilized human egg is indistinguishable from other animals' fertilized eggs. The sentience question gets rather dicey when you look into it.
Now, if we look at it from a utilitarian perspective, then the determining factor is not sentience, but rather the ability to feel pain. Of course, this same logic would require that we all become vegan(and in fact, this was the conclusion of Pete Seeger using the same argument). But I'm not about to give up meat.
One thing I learned from my class on ethical philosophy is that any philosophical attempt to make sense of morality is doomed to crumble apart upon close examination.
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Diploid
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
#5962477 - 08/14/06 11:48 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Just wondering: What level of sentience is required to make the killing of something immoral?
Oh, now wait a second. I don't assign moral metrics to things. I know better. Morality is whatever each of us says it is. It would be nice if an absolute morality could be discovered, but like absolute motion, it doesn't appear to exist.
My comments address only the question of at what point a thing becomes a human.
Afterall, even a 2 year old human child is no more intelligent than an adult chimpanzee.
Hence the fuzziness of the line that is crossed from thing to human. I don't know the answer.
One thing I learned from my class on ethical philosophy is that any philosophical attempt to make sense of morality is doomed to crumble apart upon close examination.
That must have been a great class.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
#5962630 - 08/14/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
Icelander said: Why do you care what someone else decides to do with their body? Do you really believe you have the right to decide this for others? Isn't that a tad arrogant and egotistical? They aren't harming you are they? Why isn't it enough to live your own life and let others do the same? In other words what business is it of yours? Are you so sure you are right about everything you believe? Whats really behind all of this wanting to control others?
Although I disagree with musicturkey's views, I can definitely understand where he's coming from. If I believed, as pro-lifers do, that a fetus or embryo was equivalent to a baby outside of the womb, then I too would be appalled at the practice of abortion, and would do everything in my power to stop it.
Everything in your power? Like bombing abortion clincis and murdering doctors. Yes, I guess that makes lots of sense. I can see your point.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5962658 - 08/14/06 12:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey, if there was some factory that was slaughtering newborn infants, wouldn't you try to shut it down in any way possible? I'm just saying that to someone who considers abortion to be equivalent to slaughtering newborn infants, such actions are understandable.
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Icelander
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5962661 - 08/14/06 12:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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To be fair to the religious crowd, they see prohibition of abortion as the protection of a baby. If I saw someone hurting a baby, I too would step in and stop it if I could.
Really? Well then you must be quite busy with all the babies being hurt around the world in all these wars and such.
From my extensive experience with these religious folk they are rarely worried about protecting anything but their self righteous religious predudice. Mostly giving lip service to there cult and refusing to look at anything not sanctioned by said cult. Whether the choice a women makes concerning her own body is a wise one or not, it really is her choice.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
#5962665 - 08/14/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: Hey, if there was some factory that was slaughtering newborn infants, wouldn't you try to shut it down in any way possible? I'm just saying that to someone who considers abortion to be equivalent to slaughtering newborn infants, such actions are understandable.
No I would not. Not if the cure was worse than the disease.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Irradiated_Feces
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5962850 - 08/14/06 01:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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If a fetus is a person, then is it pedophilia to have sex with a preggo? hmmm...
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Icelander
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Following standard human logic; of course. And thus a crime and also a sin.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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The_Red_Crayon
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5963054 - 08/14/06 03:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Following standard human logic; of course. And thus a crime and also a sin.
everyone knows that sex in general is a sin, we all came to existence by storks and cabbage patches.
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Icelander
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IMO,sad but in every real sense true. Sexually repressed = violent unhappy humanity.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5963083 - 08/14/06 03:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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if abortion was murder, then it would be called murder.
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Basilides
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Quote:
psilocyberin said: if abortion was murder, then it would be called murder.
There are several forms of killing human life that is considered non-murder by some and murder by others. The death penalty is an example. Many believe it is murder while others believe the crimes of the accused remove that status. In war, civilians are killed all the time in what is called collateral damage by one side and murder by another.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5963227 - 08/14/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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exactly. SO in the end, considering it one thing doesn't change anything on the universal level.
Death is death, and all too often we forget that our emotions and illusory attachment to something have weight outside of our own minds.
Edited by psilocyberin (08/14/06 04:06 PM)
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porcupine
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Quote:
Really? Well then you must be quite busy with all the babies being hurt around the world in all these wars and such.
i doubt the person you were responding to supports "these wars and such".
Quote:
From my extensive experience with these religious folk they are rarely worried about protecting anything but their self righteous religious predudice. Mostly giving lip service to there cult and refusing to look at anything not sanctioned by said cult. Whether the choice a women makes concerning her own body is a wise one or not, it really is her choice.
YOU think its her choice but some people feel like the baby has rights too, just like i doubt you would sanction infanticide because its her baby and her choice. some people simply believe the baby deserves this same consideration before it leaves the womb and not only after. if a pregnant women was using dangerous amounts of cocaine and heroin would you be against interefering with her choices?
No I would not. Not if the cure was worse than the disease.
what if the cure wasn't worse than the disease? if babies were being abused and you had the power to do something about it, would you?
Edited by porcupine (08/14/06 04:14 PM)
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Icelander
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
#5963444 - 08/14/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yep I think it's HER choice. It certainly isn't yours except at the point of a gun.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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76degrees
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5963457 - 08/14/06 05:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Is spermicide homicide? Lol. In all seriousness, IMO, No. Not even fucking close. Fuck all contemplation on the subject. Abortion is not murder.
-------------------- The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air. Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it.
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RRRR
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5963461 - 08/14/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Believe it or not, but population rates are actually declining.
Actually, it's the rate of increase in the rate of growth that's declining. The rate of growth is still staggeringly high.
I never said the rate of growth wasn't high to begin with, all I said is that the population rate of growth is declining, which stands true.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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RRRR
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According to the NCPA, the world population is declining. There really isn't any arguing it, it's all cited statistics.
Quote:
The growth rate of the world's population appears to have peaked around 1970, when the annual rate of growth was 2.09 percent.
By 1980, annual population growth was down to 1.73 percent, and by 1990 to 1.7 percent.
By 1995, the annual increase had slowed even more to 1.5 percent.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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Silversoul
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: RRRR]
#5963538 - 08/14/06 05:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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growth rate =! population
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RRRR
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
#5963551 - 08/14/06 05:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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growth rate == population rate
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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Diploid
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: RRRR]
#5963569 - 08/14/06 05:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Not to pick your nits or anything, but precision of formulation is one of my things:
Growth can happen at various speeds (rates). Populations have no speed. The word is a noun. The phrase "Population Rate" is like the phrase "Pencil Rate". It makes no sense. 
OK, back to your regularly scheduled program.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5963589 - 08/14/06 06:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Really? Well then you must be quite busy with all the babies being hurt around the world in all these wars and such.
Icey, I was just saying that if I see someone in the Walmart parking lot strangling a baby, I'd stop it if I could, including with the use of deadly force.
Some pro-lifers misguidedly think a fetus equals a baby and so, in their mind, they feel justified using any means to stop abortions.
I'm not agreeing with them, just pointing out why their irrational, religion-based beliefs lead them to blow up Planned Parenthood clinics and shoot doctors.
This is no different than a suicide bomber's religion-based belief that blowing themselves up and taking a few more for the ride is God's will. When you look for the source, most human suffering is rooted in superstition, irrational beliefs, and religion.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (08/15/06 02:31 PM)
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RRRR
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5963591 - 08/14/06 06:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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The phrase "population rate" is used very often in my text books and by various creditable sources, such as the UN. It's also in the Multilingual Demographic Dictionary.
It's an actual term, and makes perfect sense to the knowing 
CHECK YO SELF B4 U WRECK YO SELF
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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Silversoul
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: RRRR]
#5963604 - 08/14/06 06:09 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RRRR said: growth rate == population rate
No. The growth rate is the rate at which the population grows. The statistics you showed simply demonstrate that the population is growing at a smaller rate, which isn't the same as declining.
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Diploid
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: RRRR]
#5963607 - 08/14/06 06:09 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's an actual term, and makes perfect sense to the knowing
Alright, I'll take your word for it.
I stand corrected, but it's still bad English.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (08/15/06 09:21 AM)
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RRRR
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
#5963617 - 08/14/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Growing at a smaller rate is a decline...
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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RRRR
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5963619 - 08/14/06 06:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Much English is bad English . English isn't exactly the most coherent language.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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Diploid
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5963621 - 08/14/06 06:15 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hmm.. I take that back.
A quick search of http://www.un.org for the phrase "population rate" comes back with a bunch of hits, but all of them use the phrase "population rate change" or "population rate of increase", or "population annual growth rate", or something along those lines.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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RRRR
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5963629 - 08/14/06 06:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah, I've seen population rate and population rate change used interchangeably. What I was referring to was population rate change to be exact, which is what the Multilingual Demographic Dictionary references. I'm just lazy and I didn't think anyone would be possibly as nit-picky as yourself. Skeptics are a strange breed
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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Diploid
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: RRRR]
#5963638 - 08/14/06 06:21 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I also just checked the Multilingual Demographic Dictionary which you cite and it has a definition for "population growth rate" but none for "population rate".
Sorry. 
Skeptics are strange breed
Guilty as charged.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: RRRR]
#5963646 - 08/14/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RRRR said: Growing at a smaller rate is a decline...
A decline in growth rate, yes. Not a decline in total population.
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RRRR
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: RRRR]
#5963647 - 08/14/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RRRR said: Yeah, I've seen population rate and population rate change used interchangeably. What I was referring to was population rate change to be exact, which is what the Multilingual Demographic Dictionary references. I'm just lazy and I didn't think anyone would be possibly as nit-picky as yourself. Skeptics are strange breed
Quote:
Diploid said: I also just checked the Multilingual Demographic Dictionary which you cite and it has a definition for "population growth rate" but none for "population rate".
Sorry.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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RRRR
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
#5963651 - 08/14/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
RRRR said: Growing at a smaller rate is a decline...
A decline in growth rate, yes. Not a decline in total population.
Which makes it a good thing that I never claimed there was a decline in total population. Things are just getting worse at a slower rate
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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Silversoul
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: RRRR]
#5963698 - 08/14/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RRRR said: Which makes it a good thing that I never claimed there was a decline in total population.
Yes you did:
Quote:
According to the NCPA, the world population is declining.
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RRRR
Rapture Ready


Registered: 07/26/06
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
#5963834 - 08/14/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Silversoul said:
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RRRR said: Which makes it a good thing that I never claimed there was a decline in total population.
Yes you did:
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According to the NCPA, the world population is declining.
Whoops! Meant to impose "rate" into that statement. My bad!
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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porcupine
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: RRRR]
#5964343 - 08/14/06 09:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yep I think it's HER choice. It certainly isn't yours except at the point of a gun.
so if a mother is abusing her infant, you dont think anyone should try to stop her?
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
#5964713 - 08/14/06 11:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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not if the infant is into S&M
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
#5966299 - 08/15/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
porcupine said:
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Yep I think it's HER choice. It certainly isn't yours except at the point of a gun.
so if a mother is abusing her infant, you dont think anyone should try to stop her?
You better be sure of what is abuse. In my town some people think a wack on the butt is abuse.
What's inside a womens body belongs to her unless you're really into controling the behavior of others at their expense. Maybe for you its a moral issue but that still doesn't make it any of your business. Once a human is outside and apart then I can agree with your statements to some degree.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5966307 - 08/15/06 02:32 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Why does the fact that it is inside the woman strip it of its rights?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
#5966323 - 08/15/06 02:36 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Two reasons come to mind. You don't know what the state of consciousness is and so the womans rights come first.
If you forced a woman to take a fetus to term and she died because of it should you be tried for murder?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5966362 - 08/15/06 02:47 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Icelander said: You don't know what the state of consciousness is and so the womans rights come first.
I don't know an infant's state of consciousness either. Should infanticide be legal?
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If you forced a woman to take a fetus to term and she died because of it should you be tried for murder?
More like manslaughter, but only if you could prove that there was good reason to suspect that the pregnancy would kill her.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
#5967181 - 08/15/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes, abortion should stay legal.
AND
You really think that someone should be charged with Manslaughter for that? We'll then, at least you have some balance and we would see all the right to life legislators where they belong sooner or later.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5967287 - 08/15/06 07:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
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porcupine said:
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Yep I think it's HER choice. It certainly isn't yours except at the point of a gun.
so if a mother is abusing her infant, you dont think anyone should try to stop her?
You better be sure of what is abuse. In my town some people think a wack on the butt is abuse.
What's inside a womens body belongs to her unless you're really into controling the behavior of others at their expense. Maybe for you its a moral issue but that still doesn't make it any of your business. Once a human is outside and apart then I can agree with your statements to some degree.
I remember years ago hearing about a case where a 7 months pregnant woman intentionally killed the baby she was carrying by having her boyfriend step on her abdomen. Is this at all ethical simply because the infant is within her body?
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Icelander
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
#5970622 - 08/16/06 07:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Maybe not. I believe people should make the decision on abortion within the first weeks that they know they are pregnant.
Still I shudder to think what that poor babies life would have been had a woman like that bore it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5970768 - 08/16/06 07:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have always thought that abortion rights should be extended to parents all of the way up to the child's 18th year. It would be a tremendous tool for the child's conditioning to have that power.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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porcupine
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5971161 - 08/16/06 09:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Maybe not. I believe people should make the decision on abortion within the first weeks that they know they are pregnant.
Still I shudder to think what that poor babies life would have been had a woman like that bore it.
adoption
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
#5972519 - 08/17/06 11:05 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I thought about that but there is no guarantee that she would decide to do that. You know how crazy people can be.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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porcupine
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5973485 - 08/17/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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but the idea is people should put their babies up for adoption rather than killing them. as for this idea that aborted babies are better off that way because they wouldn't have happy lives, that doesn't make much sense to me since you couls say the same about infants but no one seems to support infanticide.
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Diploid
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
#5973869 - 08/17/06 06:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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but the idea is people should put their babies up for adoption rather than killing them.
Oh sure... let the lump of cells go to term, then stick it in a foster home if it doesn't get adopted (hint: if the baby is black or sick or anything other than perfect and white, it probably won't get adopted. Even the perfect white ones often fail to get adopted, and once they're past a couple of years old, their chances approach zero).
Then watch it grow up without parents, thinking it's a piece of shit that not even its own mother wanted. Next watch as it reaches its teens and starts getting into trouble with the law. And finally watch it enter the prison system shortly after being cut loose from foster care with no support at 18 years old.
Great idea. Let's bring more unwanted babies into the world. Sounds like something the pope would say. 
aborted babies are better off that way because they wouldn't have happy lives, that doesn't make much sense to me
You should spend some time volunteering in a community center and abortion will start making sense to you real quick.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (08/18/06 06:42 AM)
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porcupine
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
#5973958 - 08/17/06 06:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Oh sure... let the lump of cells go to term, then stick it in a foster home if it doesn't get adopted (hint: if the baby is black or sick or anything other than perfect and white, it probably won't get adopted).
so its only ok to have an abortion if you're black?
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You should spend some time volunteering in a community center and abortion will start making sense to you real quick.
why dont you ask the people there if they would rather have been aborted?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
#5974035 - 08/17/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
porcupine said: but the idea is people should put their babies up for adoption rather than killing them. as for this idea that aborted babies are better off that way because they wouldn't have happy lives, that doesn't make much sense to me since you couls say the same about infants but no one seems to support infanticide.
You're shoulding all over yourself. It's really up to the person having the baby. Now you get to decide what to do with your life.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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porcupine
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
#5974228 - 08/17/06 08:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
porcupine said: but the idea is people should put their babies up for adoption rather than killing them. as for this idea that aborted babies are better off that way because they wouldn't have happy lives, that doesn't make much sense to me since you couls say the same about infants but no one seems to support infanticide.
You're shoulding all over yourself. It's really up to the person having the baby. Now you get to decide what to do with your life.
the problem with your argument is the exact same thing could be said to defend infanticide.
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secretmachine
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
#5974396 - 08/17/06 09:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Heres a monkey wrench into this discussion. Is eating meat murder? I challenge the pro-life people in here to think about how many animal's lives you have paid someone else to end for you in your lifetime. THe question is, why is it ok to murder animals, but not humans? Also, why is it ok to kill adult humans, but babies are not ok? There not much of a difference between a baby and an adult, 18 years by legal definition. Here is the kicker. If the pro-life argument is all about humans having a soul, does that mean they lsoe that soul when they become adults and then its ok to kill them via death penalty, or in a war. Guess what, their soul remains the same as it was when they are a baby. This is the whole reason why the pro life idealists are laughable at best. Either kill them without guilt, or dont kill them at all. Dont be a hypocrite.
-------------------- --- A civilization based on authority-and-submission is a civilization without the means of self-correction. Effective communication flows only one way: from master-group to servile-group. Any cyberneticist knows that such a one-way communication channel lacks feedback and cannot behave "intelligently." the principle of authority" was the "eminently theological, metaphysical and political idea that the masses, always incapable of governing themselves, must submit at all times to the benevolent yoke of a wisdom and a justice, which in one way or another, is imposed from above." "no one should be entrusted with power, inasmuch as anyone invested with authority must . . . became an oppressor and exploiter of society."
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Diploid
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
#5974476 - 08/17/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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so its only ok to have an abortion if you're black?
Way to completely miss the point and make up things I didn't say.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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porcupine
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Quote:
secretmachine said: Heres a monkey wrench into this discussion. Is eating meat murder? I challenge the pro-life people in here to think about how many animal's lives you have paid someone else to end for you in your lifetime. THe question is, why is it ok to murder animals, but not humans?
what does this have to do with being pro life? as far as i know, the pro choice crowd doesn't think its ok to murder humans either.
Quote:
Also, why is it ok to kill adult humans, but babies are not ok? There not much of a difference between a baby and an adult, 18 years by legal definition. Here is the kicker. If the pro-life argument is all about humans having a soul, does that mean they lsoe that soul when they become adults and then its ok to kill them via death penalty, or in a war. Guess what, their soul remains the same as it was when they are a baby. This is the whole reason why the pro life idealists are laughable at best. Either kill them without guilt, or dont kill them at all. Dont be a hypocrite.
first of all, you're making the false assumption that all pro lifers are in favor of the death penalty. your points have nothing to do with this debate because being pro life does not necessarily mean you must also be in favor of the death penalty (or various wars).
secondly, the answer for why its ok to kill an adult human is the same as why its ok to put them behind bars for the rest of their life. because they commited murder.
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