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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
    #5966299 - 08/15/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

porcupine said:
Quote:

Yep I think it's HER choice. It certainly isn't yours except at the point of a gun.





so if a mother is abusing her infant, you dont think anyone should try to stop her?




You better be sure of what is abuse. In my town some people think a wack on the butt is abuse.

What's inside a womens body belongs to her unless you're really into controling the behavior of others at their expense. Maybe for you its a moral issue but that still doesn't make it any of your business. Once a human is outside and apart then I can agree with your statements to some degree.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
    #5966307 - 08/15/06 02:32 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Why does the fact that it is inside the woman strip it of its rights?


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5966323 - 08/15/06 02:36 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Two reasons come to mind. You don't know what the state of consciousness is and so the womans rights come first.

If you forced a woman to take a fetus to term and she died because of it should you be tried for murder?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
    #5966362 - 08/15/06 02:47 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You don't know what the state of consciousness is and so the womans rights come first.



I don't know an infant's state of consciousness either. Should infanticide be legal?

Quote:

If you forced a woman to take a fetus to term and she died because of it should you be tried for murder?



More like manslaughter, but only if you could prove that there was good reason to suspect that the pregnancy would kill her.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5967181 - 08/15/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, abortion should stay legal.

AND

You really think that someone should be charged with Manslaughter for that? :grin:  We'll then, at least you have some balance and we would see all the right to life legislators where they belong sooner or later. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineBasilides
Servent ofWisdom
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Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
    #5967287 - 08/15/06 07:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

porcupine said:
Quote:

Yep I think it's HER choice. It certainly isn't yours except at the point of a gun.





so if a mother is abusing her infant, you dont think anyone should try to stop her?




You better be sure of what is abuse. In my town some people think a wack on the butt is abuse.

What's inside a womens body belongs to her unless you're really into controling the behavior of others at their expense. Maybe for you its a moral issue but that still doesn't make it any of your business. Once a human is outside and apart then I can agree with your statements to some degree.




I remember years ago hearing about a case where a 7 months pregnant woman intentionally killed the baby she was carrying by having her boyfriend step on her abdomen. Is this at all ethical simply because the infant is within her body?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5970622 - 08/16/06 07:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Maybe not. I believe people should make the decision on abortion within the first weeks that they know they are pregnant.

Still I shudder to think what that poor babies life would have been had a woman like that bore it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
    #5970768 - 08/16/06 07:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I have always thought that abortion rights should be extended to parents all of the way up to the child's 18th year. It would be a tremendous tool for the child's conditioning to have that power.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlineporcupine
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
    #5971161 - 08/16/06 09:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Maybe not. I believe people should make the decision on abortion within the first weeks that they know they are pregnant.

Still I shudder to think what that poor babies life would have been had a woman like that bore it.




adoption


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
    #5972519 - 08/17/06 11:05 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I thought about that but there is no guarantee that she would decide to do that. You know how crazy people can be.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineporcupine
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
    #5973485 - 08/17/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

but the idea is people should put their babies up for adoption rather than killing them. as for this idea that aborted babies are better off that way because they wouldn't have happy lives, that doesn't make much sense to me since you couls say the same about infants but no one seems to support infanticide.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
    #5973869 - 08/17/06 06:31 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

but the idea is people should put their babies up for adoption rather than killing them.

Oh sure... let the lump of cells go to term, then stick it in a foster home if it doesn't get adopted (hint: if the baby is black or sick or anything other than perfect and white, it probably won't get adopted. Even the perfect white ones often fail to get adopted, and once they're past a couple of years old, their chances approach zero).

Then watch it grow up without parents, thinking it's a piece of shit that not even its own mother wanted. Next watch as it reaches its teens and starts getting into trouble with the law. And finally watch it enter the prison system shortly after being cut loose from foster care with no support at 18 years old.

Great idea. Let's bring more unwanted babies into the world. Sounds like something the pope would say. :thumbdown:

aborted babies are better off that way because they wouldn't have happy lives, that doesn't make much sense to me

You should spend some time volunteering in a community center and abortion will start making sense to you real quick.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (08/18/06 06:42 AM)


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Offlineporcupine
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
    #5973958 - 08/17/06 06:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


Oh sure... let the lump of cells go to term, then stick it in a foster home if it doesn't get adopted (hint: if the baby is black or sick or anything other than perfect and white, it probably won't get adopted).





so its only ok to have an abortion if you're black?

Quote:


You should spend some time volunteering in a community center and abortion will start making sense to you real quick.





why dont you ask the people there if they would rather have been aborted?


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
    #5974035 - 08/17/06 07:25 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

porcupine said:
but the idea is people should put their babies up for adoption rather than killing them. as for this idea that aborted babies are better off that way because they wouldn't have happy lives, that doesn't make much sense to me since you couls say the same about infants but no one seems to support infanticide.




You're shoulding all over yourself. It's really up to the person having the baby. Now you get to decide what to do with your life.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineporcupine
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Male
Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 1,289
Loc: MI
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
    #5974228 - 08/17/06 08:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

porcupine said:
but the idea is people should put their babies up for adoption rather than killing them. as for this idea that aborted babies are better off that way because they wouldn't have happy lives, that doesn't make much sense to me since you couls say the same about infants but no one seems to support infanticide.




You're shoulding all over yourself. It's really up to the person having the baby. Now you get to decide what to do with your life.




the problem with your argument is the exact same thing could be said to defend infanticide.


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Offlinesecretmachine
lover of mystery

Registered: 08/27/04
Posts: 72
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
    #5974396 - 08/17/06 09:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Heres a monkey wrench into this discussion. Is eating meat murder? I challenge the pro-life people in here to think about how many animal's lives you have paid someone else to end for you in your lifetime. THe question is, why is it ok to murder animals, but not humans? Also, why is it ok to kill adult humans, but babies are not ok? There not much of a difference between a baby and an adult, 18 years by legal definition. Here is the kicker. If the pro-life argument is all about humans having a soul, does that mean they lsoe that soul when they become adults and then its ok to kill them via death penalty, or in a war. Guess what, their soul remains the same as it was when they are a baby. This is the whole reason why the pro life idealists are laughable at best. Either kill them without guilt, or dont kill them at all. Dont be a hypocrite.


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---
A civilization based on authority-and-submission is a civilization without the means of self-correction. Effective communication flows only one way: from master-group to servile-group. Any cyberneticist knows that such a one-way communication channel lacks feedback and cannot behave "intelligently."

the principle of authority" was the "eminently theological, metaphysical and political idea that the masses, always incapable of governing themselves, must submit at all times to the benevolent yoke of a wisdom and a justice, which in one way or another, is imposed from above."
"no one should be entrusted with power, inasmuch as anyone invested with authority must . . . became an oppressor and exploiter of society."


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
    #5974476 - 08/17/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

so its only ok to have an abortion if you're black?

Way to completely miss the point and make up things I didn't say. :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlineporcupine
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Male
Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 1,289
Loc: MI
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: secretmachine]
    #5974477 - 08/17/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

secretmachine said:
Heres a monkey wrench into this discussion. Is eating meat murder? I challenge the pro-life people in here to think about how many animal's lives you have paid someone else to end for you in your lifetime. THe question is, why is it ok to murder animals, but not humans?




what does this have to do with being pro life? as far as i know, the pro choice crowd doesn't think its ok to murder humans either.



Quote:

Also, why is it ok to kill adult humans, but babies are not ok? There not much of a difference between a baby and an adult, 18 years by legal definition. Here is the kicker. If the pro-life argument is all about humans having a soul, does that mean they lsoe that soul when they become adults and then its ok to kill them via death penalty, or in a war. Guess what, their soul remains the same as it was when they are a baby. This is the whole reason why the pro life idealists are laughable at best. Either kill them without guilt, or dont kill them at all. Dont be a hypocrite.





first of all, you're making the false assumption that all pro lifers are in favor of the death penalty. your points have nothing to do with this debate because being pro life does not necessarily mean you must also be in favor of the death penalty (or various wars).

secondly, the answer for why its ok to kill an adult human is the same as why its ok to put them behind bars for the rest of their life. because they commited murder.


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