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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5956387 - 08/12/06 12:42 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Are you impressed that I fit that all on one line?  :naughty:



You must have a different screen resolution than me.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5958482 - 08/13/06 05:47 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

This forum has seen its share of cynical, sarcastic posters who take issue with small points, like descriptive words such as "pontificating," instead of the global intent of the post.

This forum, and particularly this thread, is about philosophy. In that context (every other context too, really), only the points and ideas are of relevance. Cluttering up the discussion with personalisms dilutes the debate and makes it harder to argue points coherently because the poster who you continue to call names has to spend time deflecting your ad hominems rather than addressing your points.

So why do it? Especially you, who of all the regulars here, should know better? If a 'pontificator' says the sky is red, don't tell him he's wrong because he pontificates. Tell him he's wrong because the sky is blue.

And by the way, personalisms are against the  RULES OF THIS FORUM, though it seems they're never enforced. :shake:

OK, sorry for the OT but I think this needed saying.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
    #5958499 - 08/13/06 06:06 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Especially you, who of all the regulars here, should know better? 




Personalism.

Apparently Mushmanthemanic uses a projector for a screen. :shocked:

When I was in Norge, the family I was staying with had an expensive projector for their media devices in the living room (yes, not just a television, he had a living room computer as well... :grin:). It was fucking sweet. :thumbup:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5958501 - 08/13/06 06:08 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Is this honestly the case for even a majority of abortions?

Well, I don't know the statistics, but I do know that there are way too many kids in foster care than there should be. And the older kids get, the harder it is to get them adopted because most adoptive parents understandably want to experience as much of the child's entire life as possible.

I'm as certain as I ever am of anything that up until the second trimester (and probably quite a bit beyond), a fetus has no consciousness, memory, or sensation of pain. This is borne out by neurological studies of fetuses. In that sense, I see it as only a very sophisticated array of chemical nanomachines, but not yet a human. There are opposing religious view points about when a human comes into existence, but they are all based in emotion rather than facts and so I lend them little weight.

If the future-human is ultimately unwanted, it's in the future-humans best interests to prevent it from coming into existence in the first place, IMO. I hold this belief out of compassion, not convenience.

As to your points re aborting the 'wrong' sex, I think it's a despicable act, but morality should never be legislated.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
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Last seen: 10 months, 23 days
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5958557 - 08/13/06 07:41 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Fearing to repeat myself, (in fear of), I must say:

If they can make them... Then, .. they can take them!?

Had a "nicer" 'ring to it' last time I thought it though...

:wink:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
    #5959131 - 08/13/06 01:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Do you feel better now?


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5959157 - 08/13/06 01:13 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

What is that supposed to mean?

And for the record I agree with Diploid.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5959167 - 08/13/06 01:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Ask any pro-lifer and see if they support capital punishment, They seem to like to hold the moral highground if its in their favor.

And do any of you remember when you were a fetus or sperm or any genetic material, no, didnt think so. So how would you know you were being aborted.

I think abortion is more of a religious dogma "non-issue" then a straight moral issue.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Icelander]
    #5959201 - 08/13/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

What do you mean "What do you mean?"?
He got his objection off his chest. I read it and will take it under consideration for making changes in future responses. It doesn't matter which point you are in agreement with, but why not express whatever it is in your own words? Even in agreement, it's another perspective.


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OfflineSchwammel
Auk

Registered: 12/10/05
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Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5959225 - 08/13/06 01:42 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

abortion is great

lets say hitler killed ten million people

well the way I see it he's going be reborn and aborted that many times...

and if I'm wrong waht's it matter!


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
    #5959234 - 08/13/06 01:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The_Red_Crayon said:
Ask any pro-lifer and see if they support capital punishment



Having gone to a Catholic School, I've met several people who are opposed to both abortion and capital punishment.


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5959421 - 08/13/06 02:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

--------[] going against nature is playin a dangerous game []-----------


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Offlineporcupine
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: capliberty]
    #5959669 - 08/13/06 04:07 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)


Ask any pro-lifer and see if they support capital punishment, They seem to like to hold the moral highground if its in their favor.


i'm "pro-life" and i don't support capital punishment. and furthermore, this is a senseless comparison because a an unborn baby hasn't commited murder. it's perfectly fine to be against and abortion and in support of the death penalty.

And do any of you remember when you were a fetus or sperm or any genetic material, no, didnt think so. So how would you know you were being aborted.

I think abortion is more of a religious dogma "non-issue" then a straight moral issue.


so i suppose its alright to kill someone with anmesia or someone in a coma or in deep sleep? afterall, they'll never know the difference.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
    #5959710 - 08/13/06 04:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

so i suppose its alright to kill someone with anmesia or someone in a coma or in deep sleep? afterall, they'll never know the difference.

That's not at all the same thing. A person in a coma is already a realized human being with memories, relationships, accomplishments, and hopes for the future even if he's not conscious.

A clump of cells with no functioning brain or other neurological structures that has never achieved consciousness is not yet human.

Besides, I think Crayon's point goes to the slew of pro-lifers, like George Bush and company, who think women should be forcibly prevented from having abortions, but think nothing of killing REAL, LIVING children on the other side of the planet with bombs. It's a valid point.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlineporcupine
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Registered: 01/09/05
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Loc: MI
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
    #5959752 - 08/13/06 04:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

if he's not consciousss none of his "hopes for the future" exist. he's just a clump of cells. sure, he may have been consciouss at one time but so what? a dead body was consciouss at one time.


Quote:


Besides, I think Crayon's point goes to the slew of pro-lifers, like George Bush and company, who think women should be forcibly prevented from having abortions, but think nothing of killing REAL, LIVING children on the other side of the planet with bombs. It's a valid point.




first of all that's not the point he made, second of all, you can't generalize all pro lifers as being like george bush.


Edited by porcupine (08/13/06 04:31 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
    #5959792 - 08/13/06 04:40 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

if he's not consciousss none of his "hopes for the future" exist.

Of course they exist. Going to sleep doesn't erase who you are. But a clump of cells is just a clump of cells.

first of all that's not the point he made

Well, that's how I read it, but I won't speak for him. He can chime in if he likes.

second of all, you can't generalize all pro lifers as being like george bush.

I never said all pro-lifers are like Bush, but a good many of them are. You are aware that a significant fraction of his base is religious conservatives, no?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlineporcupine
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Male
Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 1,289
Loc: MI
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
    #5959874 - 08/13/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
if he's not consciousss none of his "hopes for the future" exist.

Of course they exist. Going to sleep doesn't erase who you are. But a clump of cells is just a clump of cells.




sure it does, im not aware of who i am when im in deep sleep. i wouldn't know the difference if someone killed me.

Quote:

first of all that's not the point he made

Well, that's how I read it, but I won't speak for him. He can chime in if he likes.

second of all, you can't generalize all pro lifers as being like george bush.

I never said all pro-lifers are like Bush, but a good many of them are. You are aware that a significant fraction of his base is religious conservatives, no?




he said "ask any pro-lifer", that's why i took it he was generalizing. secondly, the fact that bush and some of his followers may be hypocrites has nothing to do with the validity of the pro life position.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: porcupine]
    #5960205 - 08/13/06 06:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

sure it does, im not aware of who i am when im in deep sleep. i wouldn't know the difference if someone killed me.

Alright, you're just arguing semantics now.

When I go to sleep, the college degree I have hanging on the wall doesn't vanish. Neither do my friends and family or the relationships I have with them. Neither does my car or my bank account or my vacation plans for which I've already bought tickets. Sure, I'm not conscious for a few hours, but that doesn't mean I cease to exist. And as it happens, I frequently have lucid dreams, so even though I may not be conscious of my surroundings during those dreams, I'm still aware and I still exist.

A lump of molecules that has never been conscious has none of this.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinemusicturkey
Mitakuye Oyasin
Male

Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 303
Loc: MidWest
Last seen: 10 years, 5 months
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
    #5960340 - 08/13/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i see this "clump of cells" as human, and I also believe it shouldn't be denied its right to live. I've participated in a handful of protests outside the "slaughter mills" I can't believe we as a human race can be so uncivilized, if you can't afford it put the baby up for adoption.


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: musicturkey]
    #5960434 - 08/13/06 08:32 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Why do you care what someone else decides to do with their body? Do you really believe you have the right to decide this for others? Isn't that a tad arrogant and egotistical? They aren't harming you are they? Why isn't it enough to live your own life and let others do the same? In other words what business is it of yours? Are you so sure you are right about everything you believe? Whats really behind all of this wanting to control others? :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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