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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: rubixcubies]
    #5954249 - 08/11/06 04:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

rubixcubies said:
induced abortions by doctors are just a modern twist on the miscarriage survival mechanism if the conditions are deemed by the mother('s body) to be unfavorable to bring new life then no new life will be brought into those unfavorable conditions




so i suppose infanticide is just a modern twist on all the diseases which used to kill young children? if conditions are deemed unforvorable, the mother shouldn't be getting pregnent.


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5954258 - 08/11/06 04:09 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I'm totally pro-choice. Pro choosing to not get pregnant if you don't want a goddamn baby. It's 2006 people, we understand the basics of human reproduction. Nobody's forcing anyone to conceive children here. If you can't handle contraception or abstinence, I have no sympathy that an unwanted child might cause you an inconvenience. On the other hand I think birth control and the morning after pill should be available over the counter. It's a fucked up culture we live in that would rather kill babies than not make them in the first place.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #5954281 - 08/11/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

AlteredAgain said:
I feel it should be the woman's choice.




If a woman could impregnate herself, I would agree completely. Getting pregnant requires the effort of two (or more?) people. I don't see why women should be singled out. The man who helped conceive the fetus should a have a say... although maybe not an equal say.


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OfflineRRRR
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Ythan]
    #5954424 - 08/11/06 04:44 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ythan said:
I'm totally pro-choice. Pro choosing to not get pregnant if you don't want a goddamn baby. It's 2006 people, we understand the basics of human reproduction. Nobody's forcing anyone to conceive children here. If you can't handle contraception or abstinence, I have no sympathy that an unwanted child might cause you an inconvenience. On the other hand I think birth control and the morning after pill should be available over the counter. It's a fucked up culture we live in that would rather kill babies than not make them in the first place.




Ever heard of rape? I mean, c'mon people it's 2006 here  :smirk:


--------------------
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: RRRR]
    #5954567 - 08/11/06 05:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RRRR said:
Quote:

Ythan said:
I'm totally pro-choice. Pro choosing to not get pregnant if you don't want a goddamn baby. It's 2006 people, we understand the basics of human reproduction. Nobody's forcing anyone to conceive children here. If you can't handle contraception or abstinence, I have no sympathy that an unwanted child might cause you an inconvenience. On the other hand I think birth control and the morning after pill should be available over the counter. It's a fucked up culture we live in that would rather kill babies than not make them in the first place.




Ever heard of rape? I mean, c'mon people it's 2006 here  :smirk:




rape accounts for less than 1% of all abortions. furthermore, rape is obviously a different situation because the mother did not choose to have sex. by having an abortion she's not failing to take responsibility for her actions, she's merely failing to take responsibility for someone elses action. i still think having the baby would be the most compassionate thing to do but i don't see much sense in bringing rape into this argument. 99% of the time, it not an issue. furthermore, id like to point out that 44 percent of women who had abortions in the U.S. had at least one previous abortion and
according to the alan guttmacher institute at current rates, an estimated 43 percent of American women will have at least one abortion by the age of 45. these numbers are absurd. 44% of women seeking abortions are doing it for the second time? this is such blatant abuse its scarely believable.  the fact of the matter is that abortion is being widely abused and mass numbers of unborn children are losing their lives as a result. what needs to stressed is personal resonsibility and compassion, not women's rights.


Edited by Deviate (08/11/06 05:49 PM)


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OfflineRRRR
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Deviate]
    #5954601 - 08/11/06 06:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

My point was merely to point out the fallacy of making absolute statements on a non-absolute issue.


--------------------
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5954608 - 08/11/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Politically, I'm pro-choice for harm reduction reasons. That is, I'd rather have a woman get an abortion from a trained doctor than have to use a coat hanger. On the moral level, I'm a little more ambiguous about the whole thing. Like Markos said, I think individual cases need to be judged on their merits. I personally find abortion to be disturbing, particularly after the first trimester. I would never recommend that someone get an abortion, but neither would I judge someone for having gotten one(though if they continually used abortions as a means of birth control, it would definitely lower my opinion of them).


--------------------


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5955018 - 08/11/06 09:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Re: morality

<<This is traditionally a political debate it seems because the issue of women's rights, privacy, etc. come into play, but lets look at it philosophically/spiritually (whichever you prefer). Is it murder? Is it amoral or immoral?>>

morality is what someone ( or those in power, or those who have convinced others that they have some special authority) think(s) other folks SHOULD do--that's all

if they convince others to go along, and belive that supernatural beings have decreed it,
then few may question it, and nasty consequences may be devised for those who disobey.

Wether something is a good idea is a TOTALLY seperate question.

And

Wether it is possible to generalize about complex subjects, meaningfully are other questions...


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: laughingdog]
    #5955353 - 08/11/06 11:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Your uncritical evaluation of morality is no more than moral relativism. For those whose morality is an extension of their metaphysics (whether Buddhism's 'Compassion' or Christianity's "God is love", or Islam's "Allah the Merciful, the Compassionate"), morality is grounded in the nature of Ultimate Reality. Even secular Utilitarian ethics, like the fictional Vulcan ethos: "The good of the many over the good of the few, or the one" has a logic and social interest as its grounding. It's puerile to derive morality from arbitrary authority. Morality is not about 'might makes right,' and true spiritual values do not derive from arbitrarily created doctrines.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5955583 - 08/12/06 03:05 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Personally, I think abortion is justified only so long as you consume the fetus, or at least do some form of research, or perhaps a crazy experiment or ritual, with it. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5955586 - 08/12/06 03:09 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


Personally, I think abortion is justified only so long as you consume the fetus




i like this idea. this should be a law.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5955847 - 08/12/06 07:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I tend to think in functional terms and so the real question should be: Does abortion serve the greater good?

Religion has a long history of causing untold human misery with the best of intentions. A fetus aborted by its mother is better off than one brought to consciousness out of religious beliefs only to live a life of abandonment and neglect.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Deviate]
    #5955877 - 08/12/06 08:34 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

<<Your uncritical evaluation of morality is no more than moral relativism. >>

i was waiting for someone, (usually "from the right"?...right? ... these days) to get out the tired phrase "moral relativism"

Note your statement is not supported by any logic you provide. ( Or any attempt at dialogue whatsoever )...Therefore It is dogmatic. ie true because you say so...this is precisely the problem with "morality"

<<For those whose morality is an extension of their metaphysics (whether Buddhism's 'Compassion' or Christianity's "God is love", or Islam's "Allah the Merciful, the Compassionate"), morality is grounded in the nature of Ultimate Reality. >>

All "true belivers" make the same claim, (ie 'in the nature of Ultimate Reality') even though their belifes are very different....and they love to go door to door...rule by 'Divine Right'... ...or make the natives wear clothes...burn books...or witches...etc.

<<Even secular Utilitarian ethics, like the fictional Vulcan ethos: "The good of the many over the good of the few, or the one" has a logic and social interest as its grounding. It's puerile to derive morality from arbitrary authority.>>

WTF????...
'puerile' ? ...i guess this is some kind of name calling?
Anyway--
morality is not even vaguely necessary...Gorillas don't go to war, or torture each other
that is the whole point...totally unecessary
correct me if i'm wrong, but I belive
you will find this thousands of year old idea, in only one 'religion':
Taoisim.
A reading of Lao Tzu's very brief book
usually proves most helpful

<<Morality is not about 'might makes right,'

unfortunately in practice, it is impossible to separate theory from practice ! ! ! !


...<<and true spiritual values do not derive from arbitrarily created doctrines. >>

never said they did...this is only word play
once again: unfortunately in practice, it is impossible to separate theory from practice ! ! ! !

If there is such an animal (as "true spiritual values") how strange some folks feel they have to explain them and then legislate them for others...

...To raise the level of dicussion, more complex human phenomenon such as 'projection',
and 'repression', need to be taken into account, after all we are post Darwin and Freud, by a few decades. Even Jung, mystical though he was, honured Freud's discovery of these underlying motivators, with his version of these aspects, which he called 'the Shadow'.
...Also to keep the discussion on a high level it is interesting to note that historically the consequences of disobeying morality are usually in the relam of punishment, with GUILT
and EXILE (used by the Ancient Greeks and English) being among the milder forms. And punishment is never found with out the exercise of POWER, and strangley the punisher frequently ends up perpetuating the fault it claims to cure. Everyone knows you can't MAKE someone love you.
...And finally this leads us to psychology's next BIG discovery, about half a century, after Freud: 'positive reinforcement'. This is how all the animals at sea world and simlar places are trained to do amazing tricks and complex behaviors. You can't really punish a killer whale, or dolphin and get anywhere...or explain right and wrong to it...yet you can play with it if you are kind to it and intelligent and patient...these natural human qualities are not dependant on civilization and it's notions of codeifed 'morality'...


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: laughingdog]
    #5955978 - 08/12/06 10:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

then again...metaphorically speaking
the investigation of morality---with the HOPE of a single SOLUTION
is a search for perfection/stability/comfort/security...etc.

whereas incarnation is precisely
the descent from an unmanifested unified field
into differentiation...ie. contradiction (ie. no secure answers)
(from energy/conciousness into matter)
or from "wu wei" into yin and yang
dynamic interplay...( you know all the catch phrases: ...Heisenberg...electron clouds...uncertainty principle...quantum "nonsense"...impermananence...
"Don't know mind"...E=MC squared...Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem...etc....)

( see for example:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=wu+wei&spell=1 )

...after all "in-carnation" means into flesh...(birth...conciousness identified with body)

whereas poetically speaking 'incarnation' is precisely the williness to deal with moment to moment chaos....feeling of being alive...monkey swinging from branch to branch
wind blowing thru your hair...no helmet...breaking the law...feeling alive...90mph...

whereas
metaphorically speaking
the investigation of morality---with the HOPE of a single SOLUTION
is a search for perfection/stability/comfort/security...etc.
ie. a moment of FEAR, or more objectivelly speaking CONTRACTION
not only into matter
but metaphorically speaking all the way down into the DENSE FROZEN
form of PERFECT organization called Crystals

I do not presume to tell others
how to live:
I am not a Catholic priest
(doing a few boys on the side)
strange how it goes with the territory...
isn't it ? ? ?

to enjoy freedom
others must be set free

to raise confident kids
you must let them make mistakes

to discover who you are
you must stop judgeing

both self and others

i didn't make this shit up
it ain't "moral relativisim"
give me a F*ing break

it's even in the bible
belive it or not
do we really need Ripley here?

but some folks
love to argue
about who should throw the first stone...
.... and how heavy it should be ...
and how to aim it
add-infinitum

William Bouroughs
and the Jonses
...he understood

but dont get me wrong
I love fthe PERFECT organizations called Crystals
it's just that i attempt not to confuse them with life


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: laughingdog]
    #5956006 - 08/12/06 10:19 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not a gorilla Machiavelli, are you?
Taoism, according to Rene Guenon, was probably the esoteric core of Confucianism. Tao translates as 'The Way' in exactly the same Way that the early followers of Jesus referred to themselves as 'The Way' before they called themselves Christians. Those who Know do not live from a lower center of manipulation (the same Indo-Aryan root for Manipura Chakra - Power Center). Those whose morals are the psychospiritual extension of metaphysics
grounded in detached love (agape) or compassion (karuna), do not murder for their faith - obviously.
It would be best if you knew the posters here just a little bit before you burst in pontificating.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5956144 - 08/12/06 11:07 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

more name calling ...characterising what i post as: "pontificating"
rather than taking time to deal with many interesting individual points raised...
....and once again you fail to get that:

<<unfortunately in practice, it is impossible to separate theory from practice ! ! ! ! >>

<<would be best if you knew the posters here just a little bit before you burst in pontificating.>>

GEE-- what what great comfort to belong to the "in crowd" you presume yourself to be part of--always wanted group support myself...as GOD was a little hard to hear...
pardon the sarcasm, rymemes with orgasam...pray tell is this moral?

from my previous post please answer or desist:

<<For example: Doctors on the battlefield must decide whom to operate on first...does this make them murderers or healers? Will they ever know if they are making the right decisions?>>


...Yet thousands of American humans apparently watch TV court shows..>>>.

Ahh the joys of judgement and certainty...too bad i'm a boring tea totaler that doesn't belong to the in crowd...Ahh the joys of judgement...almost as good or - gasam ....but only with approved USDA prime subjects


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: laughingdog]
    #5956295 - 08/12/06 12:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

This forum has seen its share of cynical, sarcastic posters who take issue with small points, like descriptive words such as "pontificating," instead of the global intent of the post. Picking up on such descriptors, they (as a group) tend to personalize the response as an attack, and always fail to step back psychologiclly and ask why the responder chose such a word. If it's not an attack, one need not respond defensively.

I was not identifying myself with the group. I was identifying myself as the poster in question. I do not presume to assume (you seem to like rhymes) any exalted status at Shroomery.org. I have more detractors, it would seem, than supporters. I have never had "group support" in any context myself, just a few treasured souls who recognize me when I speak Truth.

You are asking 'me' about battlefield triage? Triage depends upon the accurate assessment of the severity of wounds plus the awareness that limited medical attention is available. Those who are dying or most likely to perish must be overlooked in favor of those who can 'probably' be saved.
I called off the Code Blue for my dying mother after witnessing rapid, mutiple coronary failures. I knew her medical history of vascular disease, coronaries and stroke, and I was aware of the several heart attacks in the last 24 hours. I insisted that the physicians stop challenging themselves to 'save' this human life with invasive catheterizations, and to allow her to die in peace. I threw them out, held her hand and spoke softly and calmly to her until her grip relaxed and the monitor was a flatline. I noted the time of death for the young physician, and I assured HIM that we did the right thing (I had power of attorney in this matter). I knew my mother was dying from irreparable damage to cardiac muscle and I wanted her to die in peace. Did I kill my mother?!!  :eek: The decision here was mine and it was final, so my question to you was rhetorical and whatever your answer irrelevant 10 years after the event. It's kind of like the Schrodinger's Cat Paradox.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Diploid]
    #5956310 - 08/12/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I tend to think in functional terms and so the real question should be: Does abortion serve the greater good?

Religion has a long history of causing untold human misery with the best of intentions. A fetus aborted by its mother is better off than one brought to consciousness out of religious beliefs only to live a life of abandonment and neglect.




Is this honestly the case for even a majority of abortions? Another rather disturbing phenomena right now is sex-selective abortion, where a fetus is terminated because the parents are not content with the gender of their growing child. Then there is abortion that stems from none other than studpidity when unprepared couples brazenly have unprotected sex. Then there's the young would-be mothers and fathers who want to enjoy several more years of parenthood-free youth as opposed to taking responsibility for their benighted sexual behaviors. Not to mention those who are so encultured and dense that they use abortion as a kind of lazyman's birth control. I'm a bit hard pressed to believe that there is any greater good in this particular demographic of abortions. Some late term abortions have even included the killing of fetuses who were at the stage of consistent thumb-sucking in the womb.

The question is, how many abortions are done out of necessity and how many are merely a convenience? Are the vast majority of aborted babies potentially facing a life of poverty or simply a childhood with grandma and grandpa as caregivers? Don't get me wrong, politically I have something of a pro-choice stance for the protection of women and I am all in favor of growing hearts, livers and lungs from stem cell life. But it seems to me that those who ardently defend abortion at any whim may at times even have a moral cognitive inconsistency to justify very disturbing circumstances of fetal termination.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5956331 - 08/12/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The "pro-life" agenda is, in all true reality, just a vile anti-Tlaloc secret organization. If we don't abort fetuses, it ain't never gonna rain again. "Pro-lifers" are against life.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5956345 - 08/12/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Are you impressed that I fit that all on one line?  :naughty:


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