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OfflineBasilides
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Is Abortion murder?
    #5953281 - 08/11/06 08:44 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

This is traditionally a political debate it seems because the issue of women's rights, privacy, etc. come into play, but lets look at it philosophically/spiritually (whichever you prefer). Is it murder? Is it amoral or immoral? Does it lack compassion towards a fetus? Some people describe abortion on demand as a kind of genocide. Pope John Paul II likened it to an event similar to the holocaust. To him, life begins at conception, so logically the legally sanctioned killings of millions of fetuses are going to appear catastrophic to him. It has become a fairly polarized and shrill debate with no middle ground. Maybe it's not completely harmless as pro-choice activists claim, and maybe it's not as sinister as pro-life activists claim. Who's right?

Philosophically. Human life is precious, right? As soon as there is potential for human growth to flourish, should it not be protected? Should it only be allowed in cases of where a criminal element (rape, incest etc.) is present?

Where does life begin?

Discuss


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinesoulcircus
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Re: Is Abortion murder? *DELETED* [Re: Basilides]
    #5953287 - 08/11/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by soulcircus

Reason for deletion: .



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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: soulcircus]
    #5953301 - 08/11/06 09:01 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I don't know, this is womens problem,

good luck beaches, I'll add this is mans problem too, its good/bad to do I guess depending on the situation


Edited by capliberty (08/11/06 09:06 AM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5953318 - 08/11/06 09:08 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

> Is Abortion murder?

Considering that a typical female's body will naturally abort many pregnancies, I would be very hesitant to label an abortion as murder. We would be putting woman in jail for something that is beyond their control.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: capliberty]
    #5953321 - 08/11/06 09:10 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I feel it should be the woman's choice.

Men in suits are in no position to decide on the morality of abortion when it is they who order the killings of thousands of innocent people every single day.


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Invisibleshithead
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5953337 - 08/11/06 09:20 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I,ve got 2 thoughts, on this subject.
1. I believe that life does start at conception.
2. I also firmly believe, that the woman, has every right
to make that decision for herself.
So :shrug:


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I just have names.
shit has been way busy, names have been flying out the door. No time for special name shit.


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5953478 - 08/11/06 10:54 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It is not murder until the thing can live unsupported outside the mother. until it has lived on it's own accord it is not alive any more than my large intestine is "alive".

Ever when it does turn into murder the assignment of it's moral standing is totally dependent of societies consensus. In other words, even if it was murder does that make it wrong? If an animal kills one of two offspring because there is only food enough for one is that immoral? If the momentary suffering of one can eliminate the longterm suffering of several others is it wrong?

While these things might be distasteful I hesitate to apply morality labels because they are arbitrary and changing.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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InvisibleStroFun
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Registered: 07/11/06
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: mntlfngrs]
    #5953510 - 08/11/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I would rather not have been born than live a fucked up life…I’ve been through a lot of family and relationship shit and I had a great upbringing. I can’t imagine how messed up I would be if my mother was 16 when she had me…


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: shithead]
    #5953573 - 08/11/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

All societies ( & religions) fail to see that what they assume to be moral is in fact largely arbitrary...
This is even more obvious in the case of Law, the disobeying of which can lead to punishment...
And what is considered "fair" punishment also changes, not only from society to society, but also as time passes within each society...
And much punishment is itself brutal, if not purposefully fatal...but this is not called murder or crime
...of course "Nature" herself is arbitrary and cruel...volcanoes,tsunami,plagues...etc...
( When male lions take over a pride, they kill all the cubs from the previous males...
Yet no lions have jobs developing Nerve Gas, while getting the respect of their neighbors,
because they earn a good income.)
...We have not even discussed, war and spying and other activities (like: installing puppet governments...Bay of Pigs (Kennedy's failed invasion of cuba,in the 1960's) type stuff...Arms sales, etc.) that societies and governments feel justified in pursuing...
** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **
A few related points:
** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **
Why is abortion a big issue In America?
Do politicians keep it going like the "War on drugs" to dirtract from the real problems they don't want to deal with?
Or is the average American bear just not very smart?

** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **

Studying a little anthropology and history is helplful to gain perspective

** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **

being aware that as human's we are all susceptible to self righteousness

** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **

Part of the reason why humans fail to see that "morality" is relative, is that folks have a base level of subconcious anxiety, which propels them to search for certainty, and simple answers.
... People who have large amounts of responsibility know that certainty does not exist.
For example: Doctors on the battlefield must decide whom to operate on first...does this make them murderers or healers? Will they ever know if they are making the right decisions?
...Yet thousands of American humans apparently watch TV court shows...

** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** **

very odd species we are


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Invisiblekoppie
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5953608 - 08/11/06 11:45 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It depends on how you define humanity.

A fetus, while being alive in my opinion isn't a human. It has no store of memories, and no social connections to the outside world that will be lost. Going by brain volume, if it has an intelligence, then this is comparable to that of a rat at the stage where abortion is allowed, so while it is killing a living being and shouldn't be done without good reason, I wouldn't go so far as comparing it to killing a human being.

So, not murder in my estimate, no more than euthanizing an animal. It's sad when it happens, but sometimes it's the right thing to do.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5953673 - 08/11/06 12:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"As soon as there is potential for human growth to flourish, should it not be protected?"

So since there are men and woman there is potential right there, we want to fuck. Should we all be locked up in safe cages and made to eat a well balanced diet and only giving a healthy amount of sensory input each day?

If we are free, we should be that way. True freedom doesn't have any grey area.


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: StroFun]
    #5953683 - 08/11/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

StroFun said:
I would rather not have been born than live a fucked up life…I’ve been through a lot of family and relationship shit and I had a great upbringing. I can’t imagine how messed up I would be if my mother was 16 when she had me…




My mom was 17 when I was born. Dad was 18 but he pussed out. Guys are fuckin pussies sometimes when it comes to this stuff.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: koppie]
    #5953700 - 08/11/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

koppie said:
It depends on how you define humanity.

A fetus, while being alive in my opinion isn't a human. It has no store of memories, and no social connections to the outside world that will be lost. Going by brain volume, if it has an intelligence, then this is comparable to that of a rat at the stage where abortion is allowed, so while it is killing a living being and shouldn't be done without good reason, I wouldn't go so far as comparing it to killing a human being.

So, not murder in my estimate, no more than euthanizing an animal. It's sad when it happens, but sometimes it's the right thing to do.




:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5954098 - 08/11/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Early in church history it was acceptable to abort fetuses but as theological notions changed, so did prohibitions even to the point of then murdering a woman who aborted! Conception was (and still is by unconscious people) believed to occur at the moment of ejaculation, but it takes sperm up to 72 hours to meet the ova.

I've known girls to have had multiple abortions like a method of birth control! A clear abuse of the practice to me. My first pregnancy case was a 9th grade girl who was almost certainly 6 or more months pregnant. Her physician said it was within the 5 month range, but she was huge. A 5 month fetus is a viable life that can exist outside the womb (albeit in an incubator). Such a termination strikes me immediately as immoral and yes, murder. The fetus is burned with saline to bring about a miscarriage or vacuum-dismembered depending upon how late or early the term is.

On the other hand, I had a 9th grade Haitian girl raped by two assailants with weapons in front of her family. She became pregnant and had to decide what to do. This 14 year old decided that she did not want to risk bearing a male child who might grow up to be a rapist like it's father and she chose to abort. As a follow-up, that girl's mother who should have nurtured that girl after the rape decided to punish her for bringing shame on the family, and so the mother introduced hot peppers into the girl's vagina which caused a raging infection. It was then my job (after providing termination clinics) to report the mother to Child Protective Services for having abused (tortured) the child. Though remaining impartial to the girl's decision, (I did clarify pros and cons of delivery, abortion, adoption), inwardly I was in agreement with THIS decision to terminate.

So, the morality of abortion needs to be determined individually, but certain ethics need to derive from the morality. Some people believe it is always wrong. Some people say that only when a nervous system capable of experiencing the abortion process is intact should abortion not be performed. Some say a rudimentary beating heart should preclude abortion. Personally, I believe that only embryonic human life should be terminated, NEVER fetal life. Forcing a child to deliver based on the rights of the unborn makes little sense since girls still die in childbirth. Moreover, I've seen a 12 year old girl plan her pregnancy, carry it out (having morning sickness secretly in class, in a zip-lock bag), and THEN discover that motherhood is far more difficult than bearing a child. With a party-girl grandmother, that infant needed to be removed from the child (who passed it around to other kids like a doll, while she was high on X and/or pot). Obviously there are no simple answers here.


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Offlinebmh8938
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5954160 - 08/11/06 03:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

im 16 and my girlfriend got pregnant this year...i told her my feelings which were to have the abortion, and as early as possible. just because i wanted our kids if we ever did end up together to have the best life possible, and i dont know how either of us could have possibly dealt with it and had happy lives ourselves at 16. she still decided to keep it, and we broke up soon after...not because i 'pussed out' like most people who havent been through the situation themselves like to put it. it was a me and her thing, if she did have it i would have been completely involved, child care, visits, everything. sure running away to a different city may be 'pussing out'...but anyways, she was about 3 months pregnant and she ended up losing the baby. it was a rough time for both of us but i think it was meant to happen. were now back together and as happy as ever, and this entire situation brought us closer together than ever before...i think abortion is acceptable as long as you follow through with it as early as you possibly can, and as long as its not at the point where the child could live outside the womb in an incubator. the funny thing is, before all this happened to me, i used to be completely antiabortion, like 100% hardcore anti abortion...dont judge so harshly about this unless youve been in the situation yourself though. its amazing what actually being emotionally involved in a situation can do to your views and just everything...anyways thats all. have a good weekend!


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Basilides]
    #5954205 - 08/11/06 03:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

well murder is defined as the unlawful killing of a human being. since abortion is legal (and since some would argue that a fetus isn't a human being) abortion *technically* isn't murder.

however, i personally feel that it lacks compassion for the fetus. i feel that it is a mothers responsibility to protect and care for her baby even before it is born. if she cannot handle the responsibilities that go long with having sex, she has no business doing it.


Edited by Deviate (08/11/06 04:03 PM)


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InvisibleKingOftheThing
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Deviate]
    #5954209 - 08/11/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

abortion is love


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: Seuss]
    #5954213 - 08/11/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Is Abortion murder?

Considering that a typical female's body will naturally abort many pregnancies, I would be very hesitant to label an abortion as murder. We would be putting woman in jail for something that is beyond their control.




what are you talking about? miscarriage does not equal abortion. that's like saying if your child dies from natural causes you should be charged murdering it.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: bmh8938]
    #5954216 - 08/11/06 03:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If you're intentionally responding to my post about not being judgemental, then you're about to encounter more clinical judgement. Having unprotected sex at age 16 is wrong for several reasons. In my city - Miami - it is stupid to the point of being suicidal since we're the #1 AIDS city in the USA, and I don't know how old your girlfriend is, but if a 16 year old boy knocks up a girl under 16, it is proof of statutory rape and an imprisonable offense (not to mention a paternity suit which makes your guardians responsible). You both got away with a responsibility that neither of you are ready to take on no matter how good your intentions might be. I've been dealing with situations like yours for 20 years and it's always the cause of further suffering in life for all involved.

I would not be surprised at any disagreement from you - you're 16 years old on a site about psychedelics. Not to pick on you personally, but no matter how a person may appear physically, there are just some things a person can't fake - like stages of psychological growth and development. Please don't take this as a put-down (it's not), but if I were you (and I'm not), I'd be a student of these practices for at least a couple more years before you continue practicing. I for one wouldn't want to see you undermine your personality before certain processes have completely jelled. You've already evidenced one big mistake in life and believe me there are other big mistakes to be made. Being a student should be your central identity at this time. Sorry, but as a professional I'd be remiss if I simply ignored the obvious and avoided the possibility of offending you instead of stating my position.


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Offlinerubixcubies
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Re: Is Abortion murder? [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #5954231 - 08/11/06 03:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

induced abortions by doctors are just a modern twist on the miscarriage survival mechanism if the conditions are deemed by the mother('s body) to be unfavorable to bring new life then no new life will be brought into those unfavorable conditions


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i'm a very evolved ape you know.


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