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Offlinesoulcircus
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    #5948141 - 08/09/06 05:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by soulcircus<p>Reason for deletion: .

Edited by soulcircus (03/31/08 05:59 AM)

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OfflineFractalated
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: soulcircus]
    #5948182 - 08/09/06 05:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

There is no enlightenment in the future. If he tells you that there is enlightenment outside of this very moment, then you may want to reconsider listening to him. We are already in the 'cosmic currents of infinity', we just aren't usually aware of this.

This state of differentiation is just like a dream - without any inherent reality.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Offlinesoulcircus
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji *DELETED* [Re: Fractalated]
    #5948206 - 08/09/06 06:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by soulcircus

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Edited by soulcircus (08/09/06 06:06 PM)

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Offlineleery11
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: soulcircus]
    #5948225 - 08/09/06 06:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

well i think what he's saying is your are enlightened, you just have obstructions to it.

because, we all share the same silence, we only choose to fill the silence up with our personalities?

i think his point was to assure people to look for enlightenment now, because enlightenment resides within the present and can never not be the present.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Offlinesoulcircus
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji *DELETED* [Re: leery11]
    #5948245 - 08/09/06 06:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

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Offlineleery11
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: soulcircus]
    #5948253 - 08/09/06 06:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"the soul joins the cosmic currents of infinity etc, however still remians its individuality and one can come back as a saviour, as he has doen to all transendance of beings from the astral to the causal planes."

Like, if you attain nirvana, even though you transcend ego, you are still "you" and you can forgo complete dissolution into nirvana and inhabit bodies in order to save people, i.e. become a Boddhisattva.

I mean "you" get enlightened, it's "your" process, so somehow there is still a "you" when enlightened. the utmost refinement of enlightenment would be a formless nirvana which is eternal.

it's basically like saying "instead of being a human I choose to be Nirvana instead" then you just are Nirvana.... but you can also be a human who has access to Nirvana so that you can help other people access it too.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (08/09/06 06:22 PM)

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OfflineFractalated
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: leery11]
    #5948279 - 08/09/06 06:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

you can forgo complete dissolution into nirvana and inhabit bodies in order to save people, i.e. become a Boddhisattva.

Nirvana isn't a place though. It's here and now. It literally means 'extinguishment' or 'exhalation'. It's the extinguishment of all conceptualizations and signs and it's seeing reality for what it is. We are all Buddhas, enlightened beings. This is Nirvana.

(And as for argumentation, Nirvana itself is a concept, and is without any inherent reality: It depends upon samsara for its existence. And if you analyse it, it cannot be found to have any existence in the past, present, or future.)


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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OfflineFractalated
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: soulcircus]
    #5948295 - 08/09/06 06:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

the soul

Whoa! What gives you the impression that there is such a thing as a 'soul'? And could you please define what you mean by 'soul'?


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: soulcircus]
    #5948303 - 08/09/06 06:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think enlightened beings have to lose there individuality, only if they choose, and reasons are for their own preferences,

I think being enlighten, one would have greater flexibility to express ones individuality, and heightened ones identity

If you lose identity, then you essentially lose consciousness, which is not recognizing or distinguishing yourself apart from the whole and being able to interface that which is separated from you, in which consciousness is defined,

If I become apart of the whole and the infinite when I die, and my senses are dissolved, that I'll be utterly unrecognizable to myself, if there is no 'self' or no spirit after I die, then I essentially seize to exist

that is why I rather adopt a more agnostic approach to life versus atheistic, because I just don't like the prospects of seizing to exist after this life line, I just don't see the point to all this, if in the end I seize to exist or am unconscious of my existence

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Offlineleery11
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: capliberty]
    #5948316 - 08/09/06 06:40 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fractalated said:
you can forgo complete dissolution into nirvana and inhabit bodies in order to save people, i.e. become a Boddhisattva.

Nirvana isn't a place though. It's here and now. It literally means 'extinguishment' or 'exhalation'. It's the extinguishment of all conceptualizations and signs and it's seeing reality for what it is. We are all Buddhas, enlightened beings. This is Nirvana.

(And as for argumentation, Nirvana itself is a concept, and is without any inherent reality: It depends upon samsara for its existence. And if you analyse it, it cannot be found to have any existence in the past, present, or future.)




perhaps so, but i was under the impression that the clear light of the first bardo was nirvana, or our default state of being....


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Offlinesoulcircus
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji *DELETED* [Re: Fractalated]
    #5949742 - 08/10/06 04:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by soulcircus

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: soulcircus]
    #5949773 - 08/10/06 05:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

this is a confusing topic and certianly not one i understand fully but i will try to give you some thoughts to ponder.

Quote:

the soul joins the cosmic currents of infinity etc, however still remians its individuality and one can come back as a saviour, as he has doen to all transendance of beings from the astral to the causal planes.
Now this, i don't understand.

also, with babaji, babaji, constantly leaves and reenters the physical state, but why is this still babaji? would i be babaji if i were enlightened? or is babaji and individual soul?

i assumed we became one on divine unity, and thus, all individaulity ceased to exist, thus i thought also that the identities of all enlighteened beings were essentially the same?

can anyone spread any light on this issue?




ok, basically, as i understand it, your soul is an extention of your spiritual self which is created to experience the material world and grow in awareness. your spiritual self on the other hand (the higher part of your being), remains anchored in the spiritual realm reguardless of what happens to your soul in the world. a soul has self awareness but it is a limited self awareness; it is not fully aware of itself as an individualization of god.nor does it grasp its connection to its spiritual source. when a soul reaches enlightenment, it attains oneness with its spiritual self and is able to see itself as part of god. however, at this level it still retains individuality. it can incarnate on the physical plane or various ethereal realms while all the while having christ consciousness. if you reached this level, you would not be babaji, you would merely have the same level of consciousness as babaji and you would both be individual facets of god expressing themselves in unique ways. beyond this are even higher levels of consciousness leading up to what the buddhists call "final nirvana". if you choose to enter final nirvana, you never incarnate again and this is when you lose your sense of individuality and fully merge your lifestream with god's being.

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OfflineFractalated
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: soulcircus]
    #5950108 - 08/10/06 10:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

soulcircus said:
Quote:

Fractalated said:
the soul

Whoa! What gives you the impression that there is such a thing as a 'soul'? And could you please define what you mean by 'soul'?




you are a soul different to me, i beleive its your individual place in maya delusion, the divine that is bound by your karma and embodied, your soul, has no quantities.




Okay, so then why do you believe that souls exist?


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Offlineleery11
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: Fractalated]
    #5950457 - 08/10/06 12:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fractalated said:
Quote:

soulcircus said:
Quote:

Fractalated said:
the soul

Whoa! What gives you the impression that there is such a thing as a 'soul'? And could you please define what you mean by 'soul'?




you are a soul different to me, i beleive its your individual place in maya delusion, the divine that is bound by your karma and embodied, your soul, has no quantities.




Okay, so then why do you believe that souls exist?




why discriminate against souls? there is no real difference between soul and no soul, self and no self.

i don't see one anyway. I understand why if someone who did not have an understanding on mystical things said soul, you might do this.....

if they thought oh i consciously float up to another realm and every single thing about my waking ordinary life goes with me, or something like that........

but i don't think this is what soulcircus means at all, and because soul is just a word and just as empty as any other words, to me I find your questioning a bit objectable, as if you have the upperhand in experiencing more than he has, when in actuality we are all just thinkers..... and our experience of these things is limited at best.

to me there is always some form of consciousness, and it transmigrates from forms/nonforms, and i'm not sure how this is any different than "soul" or "energy" reconfiguring itself from life to life. i wouldn't claim there to be a physical soul per se or anything like that, but i'm not sure why this divisevness is coming up.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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OfflineCherk
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: soulcircus]
    #5950513 - 08/10/06 12:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

soulcircus said:
I read autobiography of a yogi recently, a book i would highly recommend.

In it, yoganandas guru, sri yukteswar, talks about how all things are individual down to the very atom which i understand and accept, and on attainment of enlightenment and final release of the soul from its bounds of all karma ( earthly, astral, and causal), the soul joins the cosmic currents of infinity etc, however still remians its individuality and one can come back as a saviour, as he has doen to all transendance of beings from the astral to the causal planes.
Now this, i don't understand.

also, with babaji, babaji, constantly leaves and reenters the physical state, but why is this still babaji? would i be babaji if i were enlightened? or is babaji and individual soul?

i assumed we became one on divine unity, and thus, all individaulity ceased to exist, thus i thought also that the identities of all enlighteened beings were essentially the same?

can anyone spread any light on this issue?




your answerers can be answered by meditation on the bhagavad gita


autobiography of a yogi is a very subtle work, there are many truths in there hidden from most men by maya

if behind it all we are nothing but ineffable bliss then all ineffable forms of our personality are dissolved at death into ineffable bliss, and all effable forms remain to be run off in cause and effect chains, yet the ineffable bliss that the personality experienced still remains as long as there is still a way for that bliss to be expressed through the genius of the soul, waiting for the next compatible birth to be experienced again, which depending on your belief could be in 100 years or 3 seconds

when final birth is taken, the bliss experienced in the life is the highest form , and could have only been reached by that one person in that life, and thus cannot be experienced again except in the shared expression of lifes subtleties, personalities begin take form around that highest bliss expressed through final birth takesrs in the limitied confines of the human mind, such is the case with Jesus and other saintly persons


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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OfflineFractalated
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: leery11]
    #5950633 - 08/10/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
why discriminate against souls? there is no real difference between soul and no soul, self and no self.

i don't see one anyway. I understand why if someone who did not have an understanding on mystical things said soul, you might do this.....

if they thought oh i consciously float up to another realm and every single thing about my waking ordinary life goes with me, or something like that........

but i don't think this is what soulcircus means at all, and because soul is just a word and just as empty as any other words, to me I find your questioning a bit objectable, as if you have the upperhand in experiencing more than he has, when in actuality we are all just thinkers..... and our experience of these things is limited at best.

to me there is always some form of consciousness, and it transmigrates from forms/nonforms, and i'm not sure how this is any different than "soul" or "energy" reconfiguring itself from life to life. i wouldn't claim there to be a physical soul per se or anything like that, but i'm not sure why this divisevness is coming up.




My understanding is that many people believe that the Self/Soul is something that is perhaps best called trans-physical. It is permanent and has different attributes at different times. For instance, in the human state it has certain coarse and subtle attributes, but after death, it enters into the bardo state, and retains just very subtle attributes, until it incarnates into another form.

My question is directed to the underlying assumption that this Self is in fact permanent and independent of everything else. Not only is this idea directly opposed to several of the fundamental points raised by the Shakyamuni Buddha, but it is also contrary to logical analysis. Everything else in reality is impermanent, selfless, and arose in interdependence upon everything else. Why should consciousness/awareness/self/soul be any different? What reason do you have for thinking it to be otherwise? It's an honest question.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: Fractalated]
    #5950955 - 08/10/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fractalated said:
Quote:

leery11 said:
why discriminate against souls? there is no real difference between soul and no soul, self and no self.

i don't see one anyway. I understand why if someone who did not have an understanding on mystical things said soul, you might do this.....

if they thought oh i consciously float up to another realm and every single thing about my waking ordinary life goes with me, or something like that........

but i don't think this is what soulcircus means at all, and because soul is just a word and just as empty as any other words, to me I find your questioning a bit objectable, as if you have the upperhand in experiencing more than he has, when in actuality we are all just thinkers..... and our experience of these things is limited at best.

to me there is always some form of consciousness, and it transmigrates from forms/nonforms, and i'm not sure how this is any different than "soul" or "energy" reconfiguring itself from life to life. i wouldn't claim there to be a physical soul per se or anything like that, but i'm not sure why this divisevness is coming up.




My understanding is that many people believe that the Self/Soul is something that is perhaps best called trans-physical. It is permanent and has different attributes at different times. For instance, in the human state it has certain coarse and subtle attributes, but after death, it enters into the bardo state, and retains just very subtle attributes, until it incarnates into another form.

My question is directed to the underlying assumption that this Self is in fact permanent and independent of everything else. Not only is this idea directly opposed to several of the fundamental points raised by the Shakyamuni Buddha, but it is also contrary to logical analysis. Everything else in reality is impermanent, selfless, and arose in interdependence upon everything else. Why should consciousness/awareness/self/soul be any different? What reason do you have for thinking it to be otherwise? It's an honest question.




your assumptions are incorrect. the soul is not permanent , nor independent of everything else.

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OfflineFractalated
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: Deviate]
    #5951142 - 08/10/06 04:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, going by your description here:

Quote:

your soul is an extention of your spiritual self which is created to experience the material world and grow in awareness. your spiritual self on the other hand (the higher part of your being), remains anchored in the spiritual realm reguardless of what happens to your soul in the world. a soul has self awareness but it is a limited self awareness; it is not fully aware of itself as an individualization of god.nor does it grasp its connection to its spiritual source. when a soul reaches enlightenment, it attains oneness with its spiritual self and is able to see itself as part of god. however, at this level it still retains individuality. it can incarnate on the physical plane or various ethereal realms while all the while having christ consciousness. if you reached this level, you would not be babaji, you would merely have the same level of consciousness as babaji and you would both be individual facets of god expressing themselves in unique ways. beyond this are even higher levels of consciousness leading up to what the buddhists call "final nirvana". if you choose to enter final nirvana, you never incarnate again and this is when you lose your sense of individuality and fully merge your lifestream with god's being.




My question in this definition is about "god". What is it? It seems to me that this god is permanent and independent of everything else in your description.

And furthermore, how did you come to receive such knowledge of what happens after death when you are in fact still living?


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."

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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: soulcircus]
    #5951922 - 08/10/06 08:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"Blessings:
...I speak to many Hearts in many ways. You will learn of this. Many will say this and many will say that about Babaji. How can they know anything about no body? How can they know anything about no thing? If the mind tries to put Babaji in one place, in one body, in one culture, in one time, in one form... how can that mind understand how to use the Teachings for spiritual growth?

Shall we live in the dead past or shall we move forward through the eternal now.
Babaji" http://www.babajispeaks.com/

just because babaji is an individual doesn't make Him separate from God. the pointar finger is different from the thumb but both are of the same body. likewise. babaji's bodies are just like peices of clothing that he wears and discards. he is not his body. he is immortal and can make any sort of body for his mission.

you must be forgeting this passage
"Joyous astral festivities on the higher astral planets like Hiranyaloka take place when a being is liberated from the astral world through spiritual advancement, and is therefore ready to enter the heaven of the causal world. On such occasions the Invisible Heavenly Father, and the saints who are merged in Him, materialize Themselves into bodies of Their own choice and join the astral celebration. In order to please His beloved devotee, the Lord takes any desired form. If the devotee worshiped through devotion, he sees God as the Divine Mother. To Jesus, the Father-aspect of the Infinite One was appealing beyond other conceptions. The individuality with which the Creator has endowed each of His creatures makes every conceivable and inconceivable demand on the Lord's versatility!" My guru and I laughed happily together."
http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap43.html

Edited by sleepy (08/10/06 08:24 PM)

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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The soul, Individuality, Babaji [Re: Fractalated]
    #5952984 - 08/11/06 03:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fractalated said:
Okay, going by your description here:

Quote:

your soul is an extention of your spiritual self which is created to experience the material world and grow in awareness. your spiritual self on the other hand (the higher part of your being), remains anchored in the spiritual realm reguardless of what happens to your soul in the world. a soul has self awareness but it is a limited self awareness; it is not fully aware of itself as an individualization of god.nor does it grasp its connection to its spiritual source. when a soul reaches enlightenment, it attains oneness with its spiritual self and is able to see itself as part of god. however, at this level it still retains individuality. it can incarnate on the physical plane or various ethereal realms while all the while having christ consciousness. if you reached this level, you would not be babaji, you would merely have the same level of consciousness as babaji and you would both be individual facets of god expressing themselves in unique ways. beyond this are even higher levels of consciousness leading up to what the buddhists call "final nirvana". if you choose to enter final nirvana, you never incarnate again and this is when you lose your sense of individuality and fully merge your lifestream with god's being.




My question in this definition is about "god". What is it? It seems to me that this god is permanent and independent of everything else in your description.

And furthermore, how did you come to receive such knowledge of what happens after death when you are in fact still living?




i'm using the hindu conception of god and i recieved this knowledge througth experiences ive had and spiritual teachings i've read. i'm not claiming that what i said is 100% accurate, like i said in the begining this is a very confusing topic. i basically just gave my opinion.

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