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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Interesting Dalai Lama quote
    #5952722 - 08/11/06 12:22 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"If it was possible to become free of negative emotions by a riskless
implementation of an electrode - without impairing intelligence and
the critical mind - I would be the first patient."
-- Dalai Lama


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5952775 - 08/11/06 12:41 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

googling that quote brought this.

http://www.wireheading.com/

but I am not so sure at all. If enlightenment is programmed into you, what happens when you die, having never worked for it? Arguably we have every obligation to eliminate suffering, and technology can and will, but is it proper to allow people to feel bliss, when they have done nothing on their own accord to bring that state about?

So much more can be said of the yogi and the ascetic and the middle path follower than a soma taker ?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: leery11]
    #5953039 - 08/11/06 04:28 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The Dalai Lama is ever in search of any means to end suffering, as he believes that Buddha was foremost a doctor for the ills of cyclic and habitual suffering.

HHDL is an awesome man, perhaps primarily because though he shoulders huge responsibility he does not mask his ignorance of potential solutions for problems with resorting merely to his traditions but leaves room for all others to develop even beyond his own methods, if such is possible. Even promoting all inquiry into any methods for solving suffering of any sort.

I mean, we humans have the power to solve suffering and not just create it, so one may wonder, why don't we?


--------------------
...or something







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InvisiblethatiAM
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: eve69]
    #5953330 - 08/11/06 09:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:I mean, we humans have the power to solve suffering and not just create it, so one may wonder, why don't we?




Solve suffering?

2 questions:
Why is it a problem/something that needs to be solved?
How is that possible?


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Invisibleredtailedhawk
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5953348 - 08/11/06 09:29 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

No anger = no personal boundaries
No shame/guilt = no sense of right and wrong
No sadness = no rejuvenation after loss
etc.

Every emotion has it's place in a healthy psyche and is there for a reason. It is because this society is emotion-phobic we come up with expressions like 'negative emotions' and the need to control or even erase them.


--------------------

"Who are you who live in all these many forms? You're death that captures all. You too are the source of all that's gonna be born. You're glory, mercy, peace, truth. You give calm a spirit, understanding, courage, the contented heart."


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5953366 - 08/11/06 09:45 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

he's just goofing around
really


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinesoulcircus
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote *DELETED* [Re: thatiAM]
    #5953379 - 08/11/06 09:55 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Post deleted by soulcircus

Reason for deletion: .



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Offlineeve69
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: soulcircus]
    #5953475 - 08/11/06 10:53 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think that if people are not seeing suffering then they are living with selective filters, and fail to watch the news. Suffering of all sorts is what I am saying can be solved. I sincerely doubt that anyone here does not try to fix suffering, of their own, or others, though often they do not know the means. I mean, ThatIAm, have you not noticed suffering before? Did you not wish you could do something? Then if you did, like say for a cancer patient, did you never wonder why trillions of tax dollars go to making more war and more suffering, when more could go to healthy pursuits? Or not? I suppose if you answer in the negative then you answer my original question, the answer of which would be something to the tune of, people don't notice the suffering of others, don't feel it, or don't care enough about others to want to make them happy.


--------------------
...or something







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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: soulcircus]
    #5953517 - 08/11/06 11:13 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

soulcircus said:
Quote:

thatiAM said:
Quote:

eve69 said:I mean, we humans have the power to solve suffering and not just create it, so one may wonder, why don't we?




Solve suffering?

2 questions:
Why is it a problem/something that needs to be solved?
How is that possible?




life is the movement from suffering to greater happiness and eradicating suffering.

any shortcut that can be taken is rightly acted upon




If you act against the universe then the universe will act back against you.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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InvisiblethatiAM
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: eve69]
    #5953622 - 08/11/06 11:50 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
I think that if people are not seeing suffering then they are living with selective filters, and fail to watch the news. Suffering of all sorts is what I am saying can be solved. I sincerely doubt that anyone here does not try to fix suffering, of their own, or others, though often they do not know the means. I mean, ThatIAm, have you not noticed suffering before? Did you not wish you could do something? Then if you did, like say for a cancer patient, did you never wonder why trillions of tax dollars go to making more war and more suffering, when more could go to healthy pursuits? Or not? I suppose if you answer in the negative then you answer my original question, the answer of which would be something to the tune of, people don't notice the suffering of others, don't feel it, or don't care enough about others to want to make them happy.




Oh, I agree that there is suffering. And I agree that it is human nature to try to do something about it. I am just saying that this entire process is not a problem. Suffering is natural.

Giving money to fund cancer research and stuff is wonderful, as is peace. I am all for peace. I do not condone causing suffering in others, it is quite a wonderful experience to help ease the suffering of others. In fact, I would go as far as to say that all I have ever wanted is for people to be happy. We are all here, being. Why not be happy?

However, suffering is here. Suffering is necessary for happiness. Suffering is not a problem, an errant mark that needs to be erased. This notion is insanity. It is okay to suffer.

Some days the mind suffers, some days it doesn't. It is not up to me to care. That is up to the mind, who is pretty good at throwing fits and being a baby. And that's okay too. The mind does what it does. Life does what it does. Trying to change it because we think it is wrong is insanity. This is the mind attempting to take over nothingness.

I suppose while I am referring to suffering on a more mental level, you are referring more to war and things. Mental suffering will not wash away from humanity. We do not have the technology to solve this.

Here we are, here is this thing called suffering. This thing of wanting what we don't have, or not wanting what we have. Wanting an end to suffering is suffering itself. Wanting freedom from suffering is suffering. Wanting suffering when there is no suffering is suffering. It is not up to me. That is up to the mind. Let it be content, let it suffer. Always learn.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5953689 - 08/11/06 12:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
"If it was possible to become free of negative emotions by a riskless
implementation of an electrode - without impairing intelligence and
the critical mind - I would be the first patient."
-- Dalai Lama




Go DL :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Icelander]
    #5953858 - 08/11/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Okay. Got you. Thanks for that.


--------------------
...or something







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OfflineShroomDoom
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: thatiAM]
    #5954462 - 08/11/06 04:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Suffering is a result of a seperation from non-duality, suffering comes from a wrong point of view. if the point of view is incorrect then the suffering is just another illusion.when you dissolve into non-duality you achieve what is only the natural effect of the momentum created by rapid physical,mental, and spiritual evolution. the illusion is dissipated; its like a light coming on instantly in a room scattering the darkness. suffering was never really good or bad anyways because it is inseperable from emptiness.


--------------------


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InvisiblethatiAM
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: ShroomDoom]
    #5954594 - 08/11/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomDoom said:
Suffering is a result of a seperation from non-duality, suffering comes from a wrong point of view. if the point of view is incorrect then the suffering is just another illusion.when you dissolve into non-duality you achieve what is only the natural effect of the momentum created by rapid physical,mental, and spiritual evolution. the illusion is dissipated; its like a light coming on instantly in a room scattering the darkness. suffering was never really good or bad anyways because it is inseperable from emptiness.




Likewise, the point of view was never wrong or right.  It is simply a transitory point of view before the infinite storm of okayness hits :smile:  A necessary point of view, a wonderful point of view, a fantabulous point of view!  Then...

Empty.

Irrelevance___

closing eyes
point of view goes away


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5961720 - 08/14/06 03:21 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

We should implant something in the heads to those who cause suffering, not to those who recieve it.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5961824 - 08/14/06 04:32 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
We should implant something in the heads to those who cause suffering, not to those who recieve it.




What when 'those' are on and the same!?

:grin::thumbup:
:heart:


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5962433 - 08/14/06 11:31 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
We should implant something in the heads to those who cause suffering, not to those who recieve it.



we all cause suffering though.

have you ever eaten meat for instance?


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Offlinejungjedi
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: leery11]
    #5963516 - 08/14/06 05:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

yea,i have to reitterate.he's just goofing with us at this point.hes probably in Dubai right now sking on an artificial snowslope.then off to meet with kerry for brunch.religion is the stupid opiate of the masses


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: jungjedi]
    #5963552 - 08/14/06 05:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Buddhism is kind of an anti-religion if you study its basic structure and look at the branches that have disdain for authority.

Buddhism in the western world is more of psychedelic for the masses too if you ask me.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (08/14/06 05:47 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: leery11]
    #5964009 - 08/14/06 08:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
We should implant something in the heads to those who cause suffering, not to those who recieve it.



we all cause suffering though.

have you ever eaten meat for instance?



Eating meat doesn't automatically equal suffering to the animals. There are ways to minimize suffering to the animals while eating them.
Those who don't care about the sufferings while they act should be implanted :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinejungjedi
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5964274 - 08/14/06 09:33 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

all im saying is that buddism puts me to sleep.now judiasm kind of makes me horny and so does that scientology


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5966315 - 08/15/06 02:33 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
"If it was possible to become free of negative emotions by a riskless
implementation of an electrode - without impairing intelligence and
the critical mind - I would be the first patient."
-- Dalai Lama




Honestly, this is a beautifully insightful and honest quote.

The more I think about it the more I like it. He is acknowledging the true state of the evolutionary path we are on and acknowledging the unlimited possibilities we will take on that path.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Icelander]
    #5967430 - 08/15/06 08:09 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i do not understand why dalai lama is trying to avoid negative emotions... what is his purpose in this? is it to suffer less? he is supposedly enlightened, right? if so then he doesn't suffer. if not, suffering is what brings us closer to the divine and the state of non suffering.

buddhism only believe in what they can experience. every spiritual seeker knows suffering is required to progress, because every person on the Path has suffered in some way and learned from it and gotten "higher". i just dont get this quote, or many others by the dalai lama


Edited by sleepy (08/17/06 11:00 AM)


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Offlinejungjedi
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: sleepy]
    #5967689 - 08/15/06 09:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

thats what im saying.budah,YOU FAT FUCK.but,my religion is star trek.
MANKIND was meant to reach out his hand,move planets,to inherit the stars.budah just sits on his fat ass by comparison.and dont get me started on jesus or muhammed


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5968750 - 08/16/06 06:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I would be the second patient  :grin:


--------------------
futuretribe.space


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5968759 - 08/16/06 06:29 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

That's a surprisingly ignorant statement by the Dalai Lama. Negative emotion is as much a part of us a is mirth or happiness or love; it's not a cancer to be cut out. Denying any emotion is to deny Truth.

Negative emotion can lead to positive things. Anger at something unjust can trigger activism to get it changed, for example. The trick is to harness and control emotion and make it serve you rather than the other way around.

Besides, if you managed to remove all negative emotion from all of humanity, we would all end up in squalor, diseased, and dying because it wouldn't bother us. It is BECAUSE of negative emotion that man is motivated to improve himself.

Yin and yang, you can't have one without the other.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (08/16/06 06:34 AM)


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Offlineeve69
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Diploid]
    #5968867 - 08/16/06 08:45 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If people think it's ignorant to improve on God's work, then I suggest that they go back to eating raw meat without the fire to cook it.


--------------------
...or something







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Offlineeve69
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: eve69]
    #5968879 - 08/16/06 08:55 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Or go back to shitting in troughs. The urge to improve on God's work is itself the nature of humans. Arguing that someone who wishes to improve the quality of life for all beings is ignorant is itself really ignorant.

Those of you who enjoy suffering, you can have it!!!


--------------------
...or something







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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: eve69]
    #5969005 - 08/16/06 10:02 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I don't believe emotions are God's work. I don't believe in God to start with. That doesn't change the truth that negative emotions can be a beneficial part of us if we learn to master them.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinecybrbeast
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: eve69]
    #5969011 - 08/16/06 10:04 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I agree. I think our society would be a much better, happier and more productive place if there were less negative emotions.


--------------------
futuretribe.space


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: cybrbeast]
    #5969043 - 08/16/06 10:18 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I agree. I think our society would be a much better, happier and more productive place if there were less negative emotions.

So, in that world, if you saw a poor person living on the street, minus negative emotion about it, you'd ignore them and go on your way.

Meanwhile, minus the misery of poverty, the poor person wouldn't try to find a job or go to school because living on the street doesn't feel negative any more than living in a nice home.

Doesn't seem like a better place to me.

Without ugly, there can be no pretty.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineCherk
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Diploid]
    #5969240 - 08/16/06 11:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I agree. I think our society would be a much better, happier and more productive place if there were less negative emotions.

So, in that world, if you saw a poor person living on the street, minus negative emotion about it, you'd ignore them and go on your way.

Meanwhile, minus the misery of poverty, the poor person wouldn't try to find a job or go to school because living on the street doesn't feel negative any more than living in a nice home.

Doesn't seem like a better place to me.

Without ugly, there can be no pretty.






Diploid, you're saying that if a homeless person received such a chip and became free of negative emotions while still possessing intelligence and a critical mind their choice to remain homeless would upset you.

Why do you think it is wrong to be happy and poor at the same time?


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Cherk]
    #5969267 - 08/16/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Why do you think it is wrong to be happy and poor at the same time?

I'm not saying it's necessarily bad to be poor and happy. I'm saying that it's bad to have no negative emotion.

I think this because that condition (the lack of negative emotion) is stagnation. You'd have no reason to improve, make art, find relationships, learn new things. It would be detrimental to the species.

Further, a species with no fear (which is a negative emotion) would sit passively by in bliss until predation shoves it into extinction. That's why all higher organisms have fear, to avoid predators, and why even lower ones like bacteria respond to noxious stimuli by moving away from it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Diploid]
    #5969278 - 08/16/06 11:58 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
That's a surprisingly ignorant statement by the Dalai Lama. Negative emotion is as much a part of us a is mirth or happiness or love; it's not a cancer to be cut out. Denying any emotion is to deny Truth.

Negative emotion can lead to positive things. Anger at something unjust can trigger activism to get it changed, for example. The trick is to harness and control emotion and make it serve you rather than the other way around.

Besides, if you managed to remove all negative emotion from all of humanity, we would all end up in squalor, diseased, and dying because it wouldn't bother us. It is BECAUSE of negative emotion that man is motivated to improve himself.

Yin and yang, you can't have one without the other.




For once, we are in agreement.


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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Diploid]
    #5969360 - 08/16/06 12:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Why do you think it is wrong to be happy and poor at the same time?

Because that condition is stagnation. You'd have no reason to improve, make art, find relationships, learn new things. It would be detrimental to the species.

Further, a species with no fear (which is a negative emotion) would sit passively by in bliss until predation shoves it into extinction. That's why all higher organisms have fear, to avoid predators, and why even lower ones like bacteria respond to noxious stimuli by moving away from it.




If we are free from negative emotions and our intelligence and critical mind says that we could be better off by becoming extinct then there is no way to prove otherwise. Unless you start talking about a divine plan or a god figure. All discussion around this quote leads to these questions and more:

Is it possible to possess intelligence and a critical mind without negative emotions? Why does he say he would only implant such a chip only if he can keep his intelligence and critical mind? If we cannot feel negative emotions then will the events that normally trigger such emotions become any less meaningful to our intelligence and critical thinking? What would happen over the long term, and can there be any parallels drawn to the predicted long term effects and the evolution of our species?


There are homeless people that help improve society, make art, maintain relationships, and learn new things. Why do they do such things if they have no reason to?


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Diploid]
    #5969366 - 08/16/06 12:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If we remove such negative states then what leads you to believe that such an action will not have an equal and opposite reaction on positive states? Are you at any better of a vantage point than the Lama to make such predictions?


--------------------
I have considered such matters.

SIKE


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Diploid]
    #5969482 - 08/16/06 01:47 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Denying any emotion is to deny Truth.

You're entire argument against mysticism seems to fall apart if you take this position.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (08/16/06 01:47 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5969499 - 08/16/06 01:52 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

So... what the fuck does Dr Dalai mean by "negative emotions?"


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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5969571 - 08/16/06 02:09 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Diploid said:
Quote:

That's a surprisingly ignorant statement by the Dalai Lama. Negative emotion is as much a part of us a is mirth or happiness or love; it's not a cancer to be cut out. Denying any emotion is to deny Truth.

Negative emotion can lead to positive things. Anger at something unjust can trigger activism to get it changed, for example. The trick is to harness and control emotion and make it serve you rather than the other way around.

Besides, if you managed to remove all negative emotion from all of humanity, we would all end up in squalor, diseased, and dying because it wouldn't bother us. It is BECAUSE of negative emotion that man is motivated to improve himself.

Yin and yang, you can't have one without the other.




exactly

Quote:

"Denying any emotion is to deny Truth."

You're entire argument against mysticism seems to fall apart if you take this position.




Denying anything that is part of the whole is to deny Truth.  It is voluntarily narrowing one's view of reality.  Truth encompasses all, and to ignore part of it because it doesn't feel good is to sink deeper into ignorance.  :levitate:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5969738 - 08/16/06 02:50 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You're entire argument against mysticism seems to fall apart if you take this position.

Why?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Diploid]
    #5970601 - 08/16/06 07:15 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I don't believe emotions are God's work. I don't believe in God to start with. That doesn't change the truth that negative emotions can be a beneficial part of us if we learn to master them.




Once "mastered" how do you call them negative?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Icelander]
    #5970723 - 08/16/06 07:41 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I don't. I used that word because that's what Dalai Lama called them.

I see emotions as neutral from a good/bad point of view, though some are more pleasant to experience than others.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Diploid]
    #5971814 - 08/17/06 12:56 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Why?

If emotion can be considered epistemologically valuable, then why wouldn't, "I felt the presence of God" be a valid argument?


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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5972125 - 08/17/06 05:18 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Emotions are negative when someone is blinded by them and cannot act any longer in a manner appropriate to a situation.


--------------------
...or something







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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Diploid]
    #5972152 - 08/17/06 06:01 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I agree. I think our society would be a much better, happier and more productive place if there were less negative emotions.

So, in that world, if you saw a poor person living on the street, minus negative emotion about it, you'd ignore them and go on your way.

Meanwhile, minus the misery of poverty, the poor person wouldn't try to find a job or go to school because living on the street doesn't feel negative any more than living in a nice home.

Doesn't seem like a better place to me.

Without ugly, there can be no pretty.




I think people would still have goals and ambition. Everybody could be happy, but there could be different levels in happines just like there are now. So you could strive for a higher level of happiness


--------------------
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5972269 - 08/17/06 08:11 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If emotion can be considered epistemologically valuable, then why wouldn't, "I felt the presence of God" be a valid argument?

I still don't follow. Emotions are epistemologically important because we all experience them, barring maybe a tiny fraction of us with deep psychological pathologies.

Besides, I don't deny that what believers feel is God. It may well be. But since there's no way to know and since it IS known that humans have strong tendencies toward self-deception (There's a sucker born every minute - P. T. Barnum) and since each religion claims a different, often conflicting version of the one True God, the God experience is more likely psychological than metaphysical.

That's not to say religious people are suckers, but they do often make decisions contrary to their own interests because they're based on emotion instead of facts.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: cybrbeast]
    #5972277 - 08/17/06 08:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think people would still have goals and ambition. Everybody could be happy, but there could be different levels in happines just like there are now. So you could strive for a higher level of happiness

You don't scratch an itch you can't feel, even if it's really there. The ouch of the itch, not the satisfaction of the scratch, is what motivates us.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: jungjedi]
    #5972350 - 08/17/06 09:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

sleepy said:
buddhism really fails because they dont believe in god




:lol: :rolleyes:

Quote:

jungjedi said:
thats what im saying.budah,YOU FAT FUCK.




Buddha wasn't fat. You have absolutely no clue of what you are talking about, but you are assured you are right, just the same.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Diploid]
    #5972372 - 08/17/06 09:40 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Denying any emotion is to deny Truth.




Perhaps, but that says nothing about becoming aware of oneself and one's surroundings, and dissolving the obstructions within one's mind that create suffering in the first place.

Negative emotions are reactions agansit reality as it has presented itself. Existing in an emotional state in which one cannot accept reality for what it is, is detrimental to one's ability to effect change. Not being centered is dangerous.

Quote:


Negative emotion can lead to positive things. Anger at something unjust can trigger activism to get it changed, for example. The trick is to harness and control emotion and make it serve you rather than the other way around.




The real trick is to utilize negative emotions as an indicator of which specific aspect of one's mind is producing the negative emotion in the first place. Negative emotion, pain, and suffering are pretty much the same exact thing, if not, they are all correlated, and pain is a signal that something is wrong.

Anger might cause someone to take action that might have consequences that are to be desired, but that does not mean that existing in a state of anger is the most effective manner in which to cause that, or better, change. If anything, it clouds one's sense of reality as it can be directly perceived, which means that one isn't more focused on reality, which implies that one will not be as capable of changing reality (how do you change something most effectively if you don't know what it is that you are changing?)

I don't buy the angle that negative emotions are necessary, and that we simply must "control" them (good luck with that :wink:). Just as one can prevent physical pain by not sticking one's hand in a fire, so can one not cause mental suffering by allowing a limited mental construct that is no match for awareness to inflict pain on oneself.

Quote:


Besides, if you managed to remove all negative emotion from all of humanity, we would all end up in squalor, diseased, and dying because it wouldn't bother us. It is BECAUSE of negative emotion that man is motivated to improve himself.




Willing to substantiate this conclusion? I myself tend to not act out of fear, anger, or dissatisfaction, and others as well, and, yet, I am constantly seeking to improve myself and my surroundings. It might not seem to be this way if one is unable to realize the actual causes of one's suffering by bringing awareness within oneself, but those who do not operate with negative emotion to such a degree, or at all, still seek improvement and change.

After all, change is constant, and accepting reality is accepting change. :lol:

Ultimately, the thought that people only change because they suffer is ignorant, and does not reflect reality. :nonono:

Quote:


Yin and yang, you can't have one without the other.





The concept of yin and yang does not apply. The scientific definitions of "positive" and "negative" are not applicable within the realm of emotional state of being, and perhaps this is the root of your perpsective on the subject. :shrug:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Diploid]
    #5972497 - 08/17/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I don't. I used that word because that's what Dalai Lama called them.

I see emotions as neutral from a good/bad point of view, though some are more pleasant to experience than others.




IMO he was speaking about something else. He was opening the door to all the techniques possible for altering our emotional states and creating change and continuing our evolution. He was (unlike many religions) saying, our way is not the only way and just maybe we can look at some non-religious or mystical techniques that can be just as valuable as what we have done in the past. But maybe I am reading that into this short quote.

I can see your point also. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Diploid]
    #5973091 - 08/17/06 02:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Denying any emotion is to deny Truth.

it IS known that humans have strong tendencies toward self-deception

Emotions are not reliable source of information, but since we all experience them they're a great way to acquire information?  :confused:

I see emotions as not much more than alert signals that usually impede "rational thought"; a psychological remnant from early stages of primate evolution when fast and frugal information was needed. Having written a short paper on psychological heuristics, I can say their is empirical evidence that emotions lead people to make poor decisions. When a person makes a decision based out of anger or hatred, the decision probably will be extreme, detrimental to the decision maker and others, and irrational. An example of this would be a husband murdering his wife after finding her in bed with another man.

How an emotion could be even be used as a criterion for truth, other than an indication of some psychic problem, is even more baffling to me.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (08/17/06 02:58 PM)


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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5973216 - 08/17/06 03:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If hate is an emotion, then surely you would consider love to be an emotion as well, and as such, it tends to lead people to make poor decisions?

For whatever reason or evolutionary purpose, we have emotions and feelings. They are constantly in flux. It's only when we let them own us and we don't own them through mindfulness and non-attachment that they can become dangerous IMO.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5973387 - 08/17/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Emotions are not reliable source of information, but since we all experience them they're a great way to acquire information?

No, no... emotions are not a reliable source of information, but that they are real is a reliable conclusion.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5975416 - 08/18/06 09:04 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
I see emotions as not much more than alert signals that usually impede "rational thought"; a psychological remnant from early stages of primate evolution when fast and frugal information was needed. Having written a short paper on psychological heuristics, I can say their is empirical evidence that emotions lead people to make poor decisions. When a person makes a decision based out of anger or hatred, the decision probably will be extreme, detrimental to the decision maker and others, and irrational




I think this expression reflects reality, and I agree fully. :thumbup:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Interesting Dalai Lama quote [Re: Diploid]
    #5975433 - 08/18/06 09:19 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
No, no... emotions are not a reliable source of information, but that they are real is a reliable conclusion.




Most certainly. One must realize that, even as they are real, emotions arise from a cause, and that the cause is not the external situation. Even if reacting to the external situation in such a manner (with anger, or fear, for example), does bring one to action and behavior that produces a desired result (being angry with the ignorance exhibited by an elected official causes one to run agansit that official for office, win, and effect the change that one prefers in policy and execution; or perhaps being afraid when someone pulls a gun at you brings you to do what is requested to survive), it still does not necessitate that the reaction (with anger, or fear, once again) to the situation at hand is the most effective or appropriate. One can run for office and win, or hand over one's money at gun point without being in an imbalanced, suffering emotional state.

In fact, maintaining a higher degree of awareness will ensure that one's experience is of upmost quality. As there is but one moment in which we live and experience, this is crucial, regardless of the circumstances in our life situation. Having a clear, cool, centered mind, immersed in consciousness, ripe with experience and fufillment all the while... well, it just is as it should be. :wink:

Like, why suffer when you can understand, man?  :flowerchild: :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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