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twelvelookslikeu
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Lost after death
#5948219 - 08/09/06 06:09 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I was thinking about how Egyptians viewed death and was wondering if it could be true. Does anyone think it is possible that when you die the key is to remember your life here on earth and not forget it. Exactly like when you are in a dream you have no clue about your physical reality because in a dream you think it is reality. I heard that the Egyptians would practice lucid dreaming to get use to knowing when they are in places other than physical reality so that when they die they will realize they are dead and can find their way to the heavens. I totally makes since to me. What if death is like a dream and if you never realize you are dead then you will wonder for eternity never knowing you lived in the flesh.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist


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Quote:
twelvelookslikeu said: What if death is like a dream and if you never realize you are dead then you will wonder for eternity never knowing you lived in the flesh.
What if life is like a dream and if you never realize you are alive then you will wonder for eternity never knowing you were once dead.
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twelvelookslikeu
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Yes that is true. Life is a dream in a way.
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MushroomTrip
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Do u remember who or what you were before this life? I think we all should try and remember that too and corelated to what you say could give us a better view of what happens after "death and between deaths.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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shymanta
Mad Scientist


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I think this life is like a spiritual play-station game. We have access to the entire time line and can jump in anywhere to live a life. We do this to learn a lesson, be entertained, have fun. When we die it is important to remember what transpired on earth so we can take it back with us. ...and play another game.
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Basilides
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At death, every soul will be basked before everything that ever was and everything that ever will be. It will either dive within with embrace, or it will panic with sheer terror.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Fractalated
There's no onehome up there...

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Re: Lost after death [Re: shymanta]
#5949438 - 08/10/06 12:28 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I question the existence of a spirit or a soul in the first place though.
-------------------- "Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."
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Fractalated
There's no onehome up there...

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Re: Lost after death [Re: Basilides]
#5949445 - 08/10/06 12:32 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Unless you're using "soul" metaphorically or symbolically?
And "diving in embrace or panicking" to mean the final experience as a point of consciousness?
-------------------- "Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."
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Basilides
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I use the word as a synonym for Consciousness.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Fractalated
There's no onehome up there...

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Re: Lost after death [Re: Basilides]
#5949474 - 08/10/06 12:44 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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So basically when the consciousness disintegrates, its last act is to either embrace reality or fear/fight it?
-------------------- "Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."
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Deviate
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no, consciousness doesn't "disintegrate". it merely loses the body.
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Phishe
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Deviate]
#5949587 - 08/10/06 01:37 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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When you die, your brain remains "on" for about 10(?) minutes.
If you've seen waking life, you'll know where this is coming from. That 10 minutes can be spent in a dream.
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Fractalated
There's no onehome up there...

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Re: Lost after death [Re: Phishe]
#5949603 - 08/10/06 01:48 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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That was a damn good movie
-------------------- "Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."
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Fractalated
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Deviate]
#5949608 - 08/10/06 01:49 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well once it loses the body then where does it go?
-------------------- "Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."
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capliberty
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Phishe]
#5949615 - 08/10/06 01:53 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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no, consciousness doesn't "disintegrate". it merely loses the body.
That is if you believe in a soul, but I think you consciousness would have to dissolve to a certain degree because your brain is what gives you the ability to recognize life, as you grew up as a young babe in swaddling cloth, lol, you formalized simple mental constructs in which your were able to relate to the world or express yourself more extensively,
and as you get older your brain slows down, I think to almost a dream state, in which some older people can't recognize that their even still alive, as they obtain alsymers and huge losses of memory occur, which is significant, because memories are what define/distinguish us and give us an idendity, if you lose memories then you essentially have lost a part of yourself, and meaning towards living life in general,
Which I think the only appropriate age to die, is in the advanced years, when the transtion isn't so vivid and obviously apparent as when you die at a young age,
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Deviate
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Quote:
Fractalated said: Well once it loses the body then where does it go?
that depends on its karma.
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Fractalated
There's no onehome up there...

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Re: Lost after death [Re: Deviate]
#5949622 - 08/10/06 02:02 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I disagree that consciousness is permanent.
I always found this description very good:
Quote:
If you say that the Self is truly reality, then you're saying that there is an eternal witness, an eternal perceiver, and it is the one true reality. However, there is also the objective world of form.
How is this explaned?
(arguments in form of
* ARG: doubt from a reader * RES: Response)
* ARG. 1: the Perceiver existed before the perceived * RES: But then there would be a perceiving subject without any object to perceive (and furthermore, the object being perceived (the objective world) has a causal structure, so the only possible explanation by the "Self theory" would be that the objective world arose simultaneously with the Perceiver, the Self (see Arg. 3)
* ARG. 2: the perceived object existed before the Perceiving subject * RES: A perceived object cannot exist if there is no subject perceiving it - the term perceived object necessarily implies the presence of a perceiver.
Thus: the perceiving subject and the perceived object cannot exist sequentially
* ARG. 3: the Perceiver and perceived arose simultaneously * RES: Two things that exist simultaneously cannot have any connection or relationship with each other. They cannot have the relationship of being cause and result, for example. This is because something that arises simultaneously with something else has no opportunity to be that second thing's cause. It only arises at precisely the same time as its supposed result, so how could it have produced that result? It would have had no time to do so. It can therefore only be that things that arise simultaneously do so independent of each other.
In this case, it would be impossible for the perceived object and the perceiving subject to be unrelated in the way that two things that come into existence simultaneously are unrelated, because the perceived object and perceiving subject are cause and result - the cause for there being a perceiving consciousness is that there is an object to perceive. If they arose simultaneously, however, they could not have such a relationship, because the perceived object would have no opportunity to cause the perceiving consciousness to arise.
Thus: there is no way that the inner and outer sources of consciousness (inner being the perceiving senses, the body, the mind, and consciousness; outer being the objects of the inner sources: the objective world) can truly occur, because they cannot occur sequentially, they cannot occur simultaneously, and there is no other possibility. So then what are they? They are mere appearances, like illusions, like e-mail, and like movies. They have no true existence.
And since they have no true existence, both subject (consciousness) and object are impermanent.
-------------------- "Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."
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Basilides
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Re: Lost after death [Re: capliberty]
#5949624 - 08/10/06 02:04 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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We don't "have a soul". This is like saying "I have a consciousness". We are essentially Consciousness - pneuma phenomena (Or Consciousness, or Soul, or Spirit; whichever synonymous expression you would like). It should neither be confused with medical consciousness as you have demonstrated. It does not die at death, as it exists independently from physics.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Deviate
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Quote:
Fractalated said: I disagree that consciousness is permanent.
I always found this description very good:
Quote:
If you say that the Self is truly reality, then you're saying that there is an eternal witness, an eternal perceiver, and it is the one true reality. However, there is also the objective world of form.
How is this explaned?
(arguments in form of
* ARG: doubt from a reader * RES: Response)
* ARG. 1: the Perceiver existed before the perceived * RES: But then there would be a perceiving subject without any object to perceive (and furthermore, the object being perceived (the objective world) has a causal structure, so the only possible explanation by the "Self theory" would be that the objective world arose simultaneously with the Perceiver, the Self (see Arg. 3)
* ARG. 2: the perceived object existed before the Perceiving subject * RES: A perceived object cannot exist if there is no subject perceiving it - the term perceived object necessarily implies the presence of a perceiver.
Thus: the perceiving subject and the perceived object cannot exist sequentially
* ARG. 3: the Perceiver and perceived arose simultaneously * RES: Two things that exist simultaneously cannot have any connection or relationship with each other. They cannot have the relationship of being cause and result, for example. This is because something that arises simultaneously with something else has no opportunity to be that second thing's cause. It only arises at precisely the same time as its supposed result, so how could it have produced that result? It would have had no time to do so. It can therefore only be that things that arise simultaneously do so independent of each other.
In this case, it would be impossible for the perceived object and the perceiving subject to be unrelated in the way that two things that come into existence simultaneously are unrelated, because the perceived object and perceiving subject are cause and result - the cause for there being a perceiving consciousness is that there is an object to perceive. If they arose simultaneously, however, they could not have such a relationship, because the perceived object would have no opportunity to cause the perceiving consciousness to arise.
Thus: there is no way that the inner and outer sources of consciousness (inner being the perceiving senses, the body, the mind, and consciousness; outer being the objects of the inner sources: the objective world) can truly occur, because they cannot occur sequentially, they cannot occur simultaneously, and there is no other possibility. So then what are they? They are mere appearances, like illusions, like e-mail, and like movies. They have no true existence.
And since they have no true existence, both subject (consciousness) and object are impermanent.
im unable to follow your argument. it seems conclusions are being drawn which don't necessarily follow.
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Basilides
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Quote:
Fractalated said: Well once it loses the body then where does it go?
If it is prepared, it will recognized the Clear Unmitigated Light of Reality and it will enter it becoming blissfully lost in it; Unlimited expansion of consciousness that is called the Pleroma by Gnostics. If it is unprepared, it will cower in terror before the Clear Light, become greatly disturbed by its inability to identify with it, and ultimately, it will regress into physics again; in which the consciounesss grows coincide with a developing fetus once again.
Nope - to say "Once you're dead you're dead" is not apt preperation at all for one's physical death. It is just another ripple of non-enlightenment, another life wasted into dust instead of real Freedom.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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capliberty
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Basilides]
#5949681 - 08/10/06 03:02 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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You kinda blowing what I'm saying out of its own proportion,
why do you think I read my Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth,
you stated that we are consciousness itself, and this is the soul or spirit, might I make a clear distinction that we're not spirits according to the bible, but souls, they are different in nature and in purpose, but anyways, this is what I said to begin with,
but really I don't see the difference that you've clarified as 'medical consciousness' and consciousness as being us, what is the difference, consciousness seems to develop as a result of the brain, you think the brain doesn't have a real function, if you clearly look at the brain, it is no different than the other 5 senses, if it goes out, you lose touch of reality, just like any other of the 5 senses, are you going to be conscious of any visual picture when your blind, NO.
So how are you going to be conscious of any mental formations when your brain goes out, what is consciousness when your brain and 5 senses go out, on a physical level you would automatically make the logical assumption that your consciousness would dissolve,
I am not atheist when questioning these outlooks, because atheism is pessimism, ultimately atheism supports non existence of the self, which I find something unappealing about in that prospect, but it maybe true to a certain extent
Edited by capliberty (08/10/06 03:04 AM)
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


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Re: Lost after death [Re: capliberty]
#5949847 - 08/10/06 07:38 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
capliberty said: but really I don't see the difference that you've clarified as 'medical consciousness' and consciousness as being us, what is the difference,
Are you serious? If you're having a surgery and they knock you out with some sort anaesthesia, you'll lose your consciousness, but those doctors aren't taking your soul. 
Quote:
consciousness seems to develop as a result of the brain, you think the brain doesn't have a real function, if you clearly look at the brain, it is no different than the other 5 senses,
Thinking is not a sense. It is our ability to reason.
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are you going to be conscious of any visual picture when your blind, NO.
On the contrary, a lot of blind people are said to be a lot more conscious of reality, almost developing a sixth intuitive sense to compensate for their vision. They dont see with their eyes.
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on a physical level you would automatically make the logical assumption that your consciousness would dissolve
You can't use logic or reason with the metaphysical, discussing it in any terms in general is always misleading. It cannot be talked about, only experienced.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist


Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Fospher]
#5949917 - 08/10/06 08:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fospher said: Are you serious? If you're having a surgery and they knock you out with some sort anaesthesia, you'll lose your consciousness, but those doctors aren't taking your soul. 
I prefer to use the word awareness for the state of cognizance and consciousness for the essence of all being. Helps take away some of the confusion associated with the word consciousness.
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Thinking is not a sense. It is our ability to reason.
Thinking is a function of our sixth sense organ which we call the brain.
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On the contrary, a lot of blind people are said to be a lot more conscious of reality, almost developing a sixth intuitive sense to compensate for their vision. They dont see with their eyes.
A blind person has all his senses amplified due to the loss of vision, including his ability to become more receptive to invisible energies.
Quote:
You can't use logic or reason with the metaphysical, discussing it in any terms in general is always misleading. It cannot be talked about, only experienced.
Metaphysical concepts can be talked about in great detail. It's just that one must be very articulate with the use of language when doing so.
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MarkostheGnostic
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I do know the theoretical nature of the afterdeath condition among Egyptians. It was to rejoin the 'Ka' or transcendental 'spirit' with the 'Ba' or 'soul.' The reuniting would create the 'Akh' - a glorified body that would serve as the vehicle to enter the Osirian Lightworld of Resurrection. I cannot swear to any papyrii that discuss 'lucid dreaming' as we know it, but I would not be surprised. All occult practices probably originated among Egyptian adepts. The Egyptian Book of the Dead (The Book of Coming Forth by Day) is a collection of spells for negotiating the hazards of the afterlife state. Like the Gnostic Archons which would confront the deceased with obstacles requiring passwords, the Egyptians likewise believed that spells were important to remember.
The Tibetan Book of the Dead (Bardo Thodol) is certainly about negotiating the confusion of the Intermediate States (Bardo) following physical death. One of the six main Yogas - dream Yoga - is intended to develop lucidity in dreams for the purpose you mentioned.
I have a tendency to listen more to the Tibetan Buddhists on these things for learning to die consciously. They outline the phases of dying (which corresponds to the Psychedelic Experience's ego-death), the elements leaving one by one and corresponding sensations. The most important thing is the attitude of embracing not fearing the Clear Light. A lifetime of practice is necessary - so start meditating on it NOW!
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Fractalated
There's no onehome up there...

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Re: Lost after death [Re: Basilides]
#5950164 - 08/10/06 11:06 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Basilides said:
Quote:
Fractalated said: Well once it loses the body then where does it go?
If it is prepared, it will recognized the Clear Unmitigated Light of Reality and it will enter it becoming blissfully lost in it; Unlimited expansion of consciousness that is called the Pleroma by Gnostics. If it is unprepared, it will cower in terror before the Clear Light, become greatly disturbed by its inability to identify with it, and ultimately, it will regress into physics again; in which the consciounesss grows coincide with a developing fetus once again.
Nope - to say "Once you're dead you're dead" is not apt preperation at all for one's physical death. It is just another ripple of non-enlightenment, another life wasted into dust instead of real Freedom.
That sounds beautiful. However, I question whether it is to be interpreted literally. It would make more sense as a poetic metaphor.
I still don't buy the whole idea of consciousness being the ultimate, independent, inherent reality. EVERYTHING else exists because the necessary causes and conditions arose and came together, and because the necessary elements combined. Everything is made of everything else. For instance, this piece of paper I have here is made of fiber and ink. Without everything else in the universe coming together, it wouldn't exist. The trees, time, space, labor, refining machinery, truck drivers, computers, human beings, soil, sun, the clouds, the air, etc. ad infinitum all came together and allowed this paper with ink on it to exist. So this paper does not inherently exist. It exists only in dependence upon everything else. There is not one atom of "paper" in it. It is composed entirely of non-paper things. And this is true from a chemical perspective too. There is no such thing as a paper atom or a pencil atom.
So in the same way, consciousness arises only when the necessary causes and conditions arise, and ceases when the conditions are no longer ripe. Consciousness is made entirely of non-conscious things, such as the brain, neurotransmitters, etc etc. There is not one unit of 'consciousness itself' there. It exists only in dependence upon everything else in the universe.
So to me, that is what is logical. I see no reason to accept consciousness as inherently and independently real. And I'm curious as to why you do accept it as such.
-------------------- "Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


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Quote:
I still don't buy the whole idea of consciousness being the ultimate, independent, inherent reality. EVERYTHING else exists because the necessary causes and conditions arose and came together, and because the necessary elements combined. Everything is made of everything else. For instance, this piece of paper I have here is made of fiber and ink. Without everything else in the universe coming together, it wouldn't exist. The trees, time, space, labor, refining machinery, truck drivers, computers, human beings, soil, sun, the clouds, the air, etc. ad infinitum all came together and allowed this paper with ink on it to exist. So this paper does not inherently exist. It exists only in dependence upon everything else. There is not one atom of "paper" in it. It is composed entirely of non-paper things. And this is true from a chemical perspective too. There is no such thing as a paper atom or a pencil atom.
Human consciousness/pneuma are merely eternal droplets becoming temporal through the process of becoming embodies. I don't see see myself as an ultimate reality, rather; to use a metaphor, I see myself as a shadow that embodies a hidden sun-light. True Reality is God, the very Ground and Source of Consciousness and Being. The provision of individual consciousness is having this Unmitigated Reality eclipse whatever is concealing potential illumination with proverbial shade/barnacles. The poet Rumi once wrote a sonet of this where the 'Lover of God' is likened to a shadow that merely craves light. Can you imagine your very awareness becoming so expansive - so fluid, that your very consciousness becomes every fixture is ocean of being? Complete simplicity - complete expansiveness of one's being. It is in a sense becoming "Lost" in the Divine, yet utterly Found since this expansiveness is ultimately ONE.
Quote:
So in the same way, consciousness arises only when the necessary causes and conditions arise, and ceases when the conditions are no longer ripe. Consciousness is made entirely of non-conscious things, such as the brain, neurotransmitters, etc etc. There is not one unit of 'consciousness itself' there. It exists only in dependence upon everything else in the universe.
One's awareness/consciousness/pneuma is not dependent at all on any physical/material phenomena. Embodiedness serves as a scope into temporal existence. Without a body, awareness is merely without outlook through the lens of individuality. Without body, awareness is merely expansive and of the Ground of Being, without any individuality. Lets describe the Ground of Being as an Oceanic-like phenomena. The One-Person world-view is likened to a cup of this ocean's water. While the contents of the cup are of an utterly expansive nature that is ready to spill, the cup itself narrows down the contents into confinement.
Perhaps the greatest mistake one can make is mistaking the narrow outlook easily offered through individuality as the only preceding reality of consciousness. It is failing to realize tha there is essentially only one Ground of Awareness, and that individuality is merely is capsulated expansiveness.
Enlightenment is to realize that within us we have a sort of unlimited expansiveness that eclipses the very size of the universe.
Quote:
So to me, that is what is logical. I see no reason to accept consciousness as inherently and independently real. And I'm curious as to why you do accept it as such.
Perhaps the real hunch comes from my own mystical experiences. The psychedelic experience has an extraordinary symptom of obliterating the brain-generated ego - whatever sense of personal identity that is ultimately defined by material phenomena. This experience blissfully exposes Being outside material phenomena, and subsequently, only Ultimate Reality illuminates in the experience - communion with GOD. It is awareness crashing into Ground of Awareness, Being merging into Ground of Being, Lover merging into the very Well of Love. It is Gnosis, Enlightenment, Awakening; and ultimately, an actual taste of what it's like to have no-self in utter Divine expansion.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Fospher
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Quote:
AlteredAgain said: Thinking is a function of our sixth sense organ which we call the brain.
I disagree, you can't feel anything with your brain. You can take in feeling and analyze it with it, but you can't feel anything with that organ, the organ of the mind.
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A blind person has all his senses amplified due to the loss of vision, including his ability to become more receptive to invisible energies.
...Um, ok. And?
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Metaphysical concepts can be talked about in great detail. It's just that one must be very articulate with the use of language when doing so.
Once again, disagree. You can't describe what the spirit is, because it is not the unknown - it is the unknowable. It can only be known with silent knowledge, something you just know, which does not need to be coded into language. You can't describe what God is - you can't say God is this or God is that - every definition you try to put on it only constraints your understanding.
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Basilides]
#5950949 - 08/10/06 03:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Could you provide any arguments for your belief or is it essentially dogma?
Edited by MushmanTheManic (08/10/06 04:05 PM)
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capliberty
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I disagree, you can't feel anything with your brain. You can take in feeling and analyze it with it, but you can't feel anything with that organ, the organ of the mind.
You can't feel anything with sight, or feel anything with hearing, a sense to me is a sensory organ that gathers interprets information, which the brain does, it actually utilizes all the five senses and assimilates the information into concepts in which one can relate, and as any other sense, if it goes out, it seizes its function, meaning it loses the ability to create meaning
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Basilides
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Perhaps you'd like a BBC article to verify it.. come on Mushy, this ain't PA&L
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Fractalated
There's no onehome up there...

Registered: 07/22/06
Posts: 640
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Basilides]
#5951189 - 08/10/06 04:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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One's awareness/consciousness/pneuma is not dependent at all on any physical/material phenomena.
Okay, this is a counter-logical position which I found very intriguing. However, no where did you back it up! I presented an argument and explained why I thought that way, and you basically said "No, it's this way."
Awareness is always awareness OF something. You cannot have a subject without an object. In fact, I'd say that perceiver and perceived are one.
Here's argumentation in terms of absolute Truth: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5949622#Post5949622
-------------------- "Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
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Quote:
You cannot have a subject without an object. In fact, I'd say that perceiver and perceived are one.
this is contradictory. if the perceiver and the percieved are one, then you can have a subject without an object (as both resolve into the subject).
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
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Quote:
Fractalated said: One's awareness/consciousness/pneuma is not dependent at all on any physical/material phenomena.
Okay, this is a counter-logical position which I found very intriguing. However, no where did you back it up! I presented an argument and explained why I thought that way, and you basically said "No, it's this way."
Awareness is always awareness OF something. You cannot have a subject without an object. In fact, I'd say that perceiver and perceived are one.
Here's argumentation in terms of absolute Truth: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5949622#Post5949622
Ok - a hypothetic for you.
You are awareness, but not of or in existence (ie, you died). But - you are nonetheless conscious. So what are you aware of?
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Fractalated
There's no onehome up there...

Registered: 07/22/06
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Deviate]
#5951229 - 08/10/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
Quote:
You cannot have a subject without an object. In fact, I'd say that perceiver and perceived are one.
this is contradictory. if the perceiver and the percieved are one, then you can have a subject without an object (as both resolve into the subject).
Not true. The perceiver is the perceived. Thus you can't really say you have either.
-------------------- "Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."
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Fractalated
There's no onehome up there...

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Re: Lost after death [Re: Basilides]
#5951239 - 08/10/06 05:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ok - a hypothetic for you.
You are awareness, but not of or in existence (ie, you died). But - you are nonetheless conscious. So what are you aware of?
That's a meaningless statement. There cannot be anything 'outside of existence', for if something existed outside of existence, then it would exist and then couldn't be 'outside of existence'.
-------------------- "Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist


Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Fospher]
#5951306 - 08/10/06 05:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Fospher said: I disagree, you can't feel anything with your brain. You can take in feeling and analyze it with it, but you can't feel anything with that organ, the organ of the mind.
I never said anything about feeling. Quoting CapLiberty on this one.
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A blind person has all his senses amplified due to the loss of vision, including his ability to become more receptive to invisible energies.
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...Um, ok. And?
That's it. That's all i wanted to say. I wasn't dismissing your claim.
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Metaphysical concepts can be talked about in great detail. It's just that one must be very articulate with the use of language when doing so.
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Once again, disagree. You can't describe what the spirit is, because it is not the unknown - it is the unknowable. It can only be known with silent knowledge, something you just know, which does not need to be coded into language. You can't describe what God is - you can't say God is this or God is that - every definition you try to put on it only constraints your understanding.
Who said anything about spirit? I was talking about metaphysical concepts in general, that ideas such as reincarnation, life, death, duality, oneness, experience, reality, you name it, can be discussed, whether it's through metaphors, paradoxes, or simply subjective observations. I never stated that god could be defined..
I think you need to pay more attention to what you are reading.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
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Quote:
Fractalated said: Ok - a hypothetic for you.
You are awareness, but not of or in existence (ie, you died). But - you are nonetheless conscious. So what are you aware of?
That's a meaningless statement. There cannot be anything 'outside of existence', for if something existed outside of existence, then it would exist and then couldn't be 'outside of existence'.
My point exactly. You see nothingness, I see pneuma.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Basilides]
#5951600 - 08/10/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well a BBC article would be nice... but I don't want verification per se. I am more interested in why you believe this. What lead you to these conclusions?
Edited by MushmanTheManic (08/10/06 06:49 PM)
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Fospher
Crime FightingMaster Criminal


Registered: 02/09/05
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Quote:
AlteredAgain said: I never said anything about feeling. Quoting CapLiberty on this one.
I'm looking right at your post, and you define the brain as an organ for our sixth sense. How else could you perceive sense abide feeling it? You can't think smells, or think touching someone. 
Quote:
I was talking about metaphysical concepts in general, that ideas such as reincarnation, life, death, duality, oneness, experience...etc etc
Well, besides reality not being the metaphysical but the physical, and life, experience and death being events of this world, maybe I did pull a fast one with that statement a tad. Oh well, I posted that when I got up at 8:00 in the morning, so I'm officially excused!
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Fractalated
There's no onehome up there...

Registered: 07/22/06
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: Well a BBC article would be nice... but I don't want verification per se. I am more interested in why you believe this. What lead you to these conclusions?
-------------------- "Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."
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capliberty
Stranger


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Re: Lost after death [Re: Fospher]
#5952248 - 08/10/06 10:25 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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'm looking right at your post, and you define the brain as an organ for our sixth sense. How else could you perceive sense abide feeling it? You can't think smells, or think touching someone.
Actually feeling is one of the six senses, which the body itself is that sensory organ, such as sight, sound, taste, smell, thinking are other sensory mediums one uses to gather and assimilate information, and if your talking about the actual organ feeling something, the brain does this as well, as when you get stressed out and you obtain a serious headache,
I think your getting mixed up with sensual pleasures and senses, when we 'feel' sensual pleasure from tasting something that taste good, then we have a feeling, but we also can have sensual thoughts too, that gives us feeling also, there is no difference, so in effect we can feel with our brains too,
and who says we can't think about smell, sound or tastes, in fact our biology salivates towards those thoughts as being real
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist


Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Fospher]
#5952409 - 08/10/06 11:04 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fospher said: Well, besides reality not being the metaphysical but the physical, and life, experience and death being events of this world, maybe I did pull a fast one with that statement a tad. Oh well, I posted that when I got up at 8:00 in the morning, so I'm officially excused!
Funny. You're saying that reality is not metaphysical when metaphysics is exactly that field of study which concerns itself with the nature of reality.
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Deviate
newbie
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Quote:
Not true. The perceiver is the perceived. Thus you can't really say you have either.
and? im honestly not seeing your point.
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Fractalated
There's no onehome up there...

Registered: 07/22/06
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Basilides]
#5952766 - 08/11/06 12:36 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I see pneuma
What's a pneuma?
-------------------- "Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."
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Fractalated
There's no onehome up there...

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Re: Lost after death [Re: Deviate]
#5952774 - 08/11/06 12:40 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Basilides was asserting that awareness/consciousness is independently existent, without backing up this claim. So I was arguing that awareness cannot exist independently of the object (subject implies object). Then you made a comment about something you perceived as being contradictory, and I was trying to clarify. That was my point: clarification.
-------------------- "Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."
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Deviate
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but you said the perceiver and the object are one, thus awareness can exist independent of object. it can take on form and it can be formless.
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--


Registered: 04/30/03
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Deviate]
#5953045 - 08/11/06 04:31 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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After countless hours playing Diablo, I often wonder if in a future life I will remember previously battling demons, when in reality I had just been playing a game.
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