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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Basilides]
    #5949681 - 08/10/06 03:02 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You kinda blowing what I'm saying out of its own proportion,

why do you think I read my Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth,

you stated that we are consciousness itself, and this is the soul or spirit, might I make a clear distinction that we're not spirits according to the bible, but souls, they are different in nature and in purpose, but anyways, this is what I said to begin with,

but really I don't see the difference that you've clarified as 'medical consciousness' and consciousness as being us, what is the difference, consciousness seems to develop as a result of the brain, you think the brain doesn't have a real function, if you clearly look at the brain, it is no different than the other 5 senses, if it goes out, you lose touch of reality, just like any other of the 5 senses, are you going to be conscious of any visual picture when your blind, NO.

So how are you going to be conscious of any mental formations when your brain goes out, what is consciousness when your brain and 5 senses go out, on a physical level you would automatically make the logical assumption that your consciousness would dissolve,

I am not atheist when questioning these outlooks, because atheism is pessimism, ultimately atheism supports non existence of the self, which I find something unappealing about in that prospect, but it maybe true to a certain extent


Edited by capliberty (08/10/06 03:04 AM)


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Lost after death [Re: capliberty]
    #5949847 - 08/10/06 07:38 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

capliberty said:
but really I don't see the difference that you've clarified as 'medical consciousness' and consciousness as being us, what is the difference,




Are you serious? If you're having a surgery and they knock you out with some sort anaesthesia, you'll lose your consciousness, but those doctors aren't taking your soul. :lol:

Quote:


consciousness seems to develop as a result of the brain, you think the brain doesn't have a real function, if you clearly look at the brain, it is no different than the other 5 senses,




Thinking is not a sense. It is our ability to reason.

Quote:

are you going to be conscious of any visual picture when your blind, NO.




On the contrary, a lot of blind people are said to be a lot more conscious of reality, almost developing a sixth intuitive sense to compensate for their vision. They dont see with their eyes.

Quote:

on a physical level you would automatically make the logical assumption that your consciousness would dissolve




You can't use logic or reason with the metaphysical, discussing it in any terms in general is always misleading. It cannot be talked about, only experienced.


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Fospher]
    #5949917 - 08/10/06 08:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Are you serious? If you're having a surgery and they knock you out with some sort anaesthesia, you'll lose your consciousness, but those doctors aren't taking your soul. :lol:




I prefer to use the word awareness for the state of cognizance and consciousness for the essence of all being. Helps take away some of the confusion associated with the word consciousness.


Quote:

Thinking is not a sense. It is our ability to reason.




Thinking is a function of our sixth sense organ which we call the brain.

Quote:

On the contrary, a lot of blind people are said to be a lot more conscious of reality, almost developing a sixth intuitive sense to compensate for their vision. They dont see with their eyes.




A blind person has all his senses amplified due to the loss of vision, including his ability to become more receptive to invisible energies.


Quote:

You can't use logic or reason with the metaphysical, discussing it in any terms in general is always misleading. It cannot be talked about, only experienced.




Metaphysical concepts can be talked about in great detail. It's just that one must be very articulate with the use of language when doing so.

:sun:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Lost after death [Re: twelvelookslikeu]
    #5949990 - 08/10/06 09:44 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I do know the theoretical nature of the afterdeath condition among Egyptians. It was to rejoin the 'Ka' or transcendental 'spirit' with the 'Ba' or 'soul.' The reuniting would create the 'Akh' - a glorified body that would serve as the vehicle to enter the Osirian Lightworld of Resurrection. I cannot swear to any papyrii that discuss 'lucid dreaming' as we know it, but I would not be surprised. All occult practices probably originated among Egyptian adepts. The Egyptian Book of the Dead (The Book of Coming Forth by Day) is a collection of spells for negotiating the hazards of the afterlife state. Like the Gnostic Archons which would confront the deceased with obstacles requiring passwords, the Egyptians likewise believed that spells were important to remember.

The Tibetan Book of the Dead (Bardo Thodol) is certainly about negotiating the confusion of the Intermediate States (Bardo) following physical death. One of the six main Yogas - dream Yoga - is intended to develop lucidity in dreams for the purpose you mentioned.

I have a tendency to listen more to the Tibetan Buddhists on these things for learning to die consciously. They outline the phases of dying (which corresponds to the Psychedelic Experience's ego-death), the elements leaving one by one and corresponding sensations. The most important thing is the attitude of embracing not fearing the Clear Light. A lifetime of practice is necessary - so start meditating on it NOW!  :wink:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineFractalated
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Basilides]
    #5950164 - 08/10/06 11:06 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

Fractalated said:
Well once it loses the body then where does it go?




If it is prepared, it will recognized the Clear Unmitigated Light of Reality and it will enter it becoming blissfully lost in it; Unlimited expansion of consciousness that is called the Pleroma by Gnostics. If it is unprepared, it will cower in terror before the Clear Light, become greatly disturbed by its inability to identify with it, and ultimately, it will regress into physics again; in which the consciounesss grows coincide with a developing fetus once again.

Nope - to say "Once you're dead you're dead" is not apt preperation at all for one's physical death. It is just another ripple of non-enlightenment, another life wasted into dust instead of real Freedom.




That sounds beautiful. However, I question whether it is to be interpreted literally. It would make more sense as a poetic metaphor.

I still don't buy the whole idea of consciousness being the ultimate, independent, inherent reality. EVERYTHING else exists because the necessary causes and conditions arose and came together, and because the necessary elements combined. Everything is made of everything else. For instance, this piece of paper I have here is made of fiber and ink. Without everything else in the universe coming together, it wouldn't exist. The trees, time, space, labor, refining machinery, truck drivers, computers, human beings, soil, sun, the clouds, the air, etc. ad infinitum all came together and allowed this paper with ink on it to exist. So this paper does not inherently exist. It exists only in dependence upon everything else. There is not one atom of "paper" in it. It is composed entirely of non-paper things. And this is true from a chemical perspective too. There is no such thing as a paper atom or a pencil atom.

So in the same way, consciousness arises only when the necessary causes and conditions arise, and ceases when the conditions are no longer ripe. Consciousness is made entirely of non-conscious things, such as the brain, neurotransmitters, etc etc. There is not one unit of 'consciousness itself' there. It exists only in dependence upon everything else in the universe.

So to me, that is what is logical. I see no reason to accept consciousness as inherently and independently real. And I'm curious as to why you do accept it as such.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Fractalated]
    #5950431 - 08/10/06 12:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I still don't buy the whole idea of consciousness being the ultimate, independent, inherent reality. EVERYTHING else exists because the necessary causes and conditions arose and came together, and because the necessary elements combined. Everything is made of everything else. For instance, this piece of paper I have here is made of fiber and ink. Without everything else in the universe coming together, it wouldn't exist. The trees, time, space, labor, refining machinery, truck drivers, computers, human beings, soil, sun, the clouds, the air, etc. ad infinitum all came together and allowed this paper with ink on it to exist. So this paper does not inherently exist. It exists only in dependence upon everything else. There is not one atom of "paper" in it. It is composed entirely of non-paper things. And this is true from a chemical perspective too. There is no such thing as a paper atom or a pencil atom.




Human consciousness/pneuma are merely eternal droplets becoming temporal through the process of becoming embodies. I don't see see myself as an ultimate reality, rather; to use a metaphor, I see myself as a shadow that embodies a hidden sun-light. True Reality is God, the very Ground and Source of Consciousness and Being. The provision of individual consciousness is having this Unmitigated Reality eclipse whatever is concealing potential illumination with proverbial shade/barnacles. The poet Rumi once wrote a sonet of this where the 'Lover of God' is likened to a shadow that merely craves light. Can you imagine your very awareness becoming so expansive - so fluid, that your very consciousness becomes every fixture is ocean of being? Complete simplicity - complete expansiveness of one's being. It is in a sense becoming "Lost" in the Divine, yet utterly Found since this expansiveness is ultimately ONE.

Quote:

So in the same way, consciousness arises only when the necessary causes and conditions arise, and ceases when the conditions are no longer ripe. Consciousness is made entirely of non-conscious things, such as the brain, neurotransmitters, etc etc. There is not one unit of 'consciousness itself' there. It exists only in dependence upon everything else in the universe.




One's awareness/consciousness/pneuma is not dependent at all on any physical/material phenomena. Embodiedness serves as a scope into temporal existence. Without a body, awareness is merely without outlook through the lens of individuality. Without body, awareness is merely expansive and of the Ground of Being, without any individuality. Lets describe the Ground of Being as an Oceanic-like phenomena. The One-Person world-view is likened to a cup of this ocean's water. While the contents of the cup are of an utterly expansive nature that is ready to spill, the cup itself narrows down the contents into confinement.

Perhaps the greatest mistake one can make is mistaking the narrow outlook easily offered through individuality as the only preceding reality of consciousness. It is failing to realize tha there is essentially only one Ground of Awareness, and that individuality is merely is capsulated expansiveness.

Enlightenment is to realize that within us we have a sort of unlimited expansiveness that eclipses the very size of the universe.

Quote:

So to me, that is what is logical. I see no reason to accept consciousness as inherently and independently real. And I'm curious as to why you do accept it as such.




Perhaps the real hunch comes from my own mystical experiences. The psychedelic experience has an extraordinary symptom of obliterating the brain-generated ego - whatever sense of personal identity that is ultimately defined by material phenomena. This experience blissfully exposes Being outside material phenomena, and subsequently, only Ultimate Reality illuminates in the experience - communion with GOD. It is awareness crashing into Ground of Awareness, Being merging into Ground of Being, Lover merging into the very Well of Love. It is Gnosis, Enlightenment, Awakening; and ultimately, an actual taste of what it's like to have no-self in utter Divine expansion.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Lost after death [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #5950559 - 08/10/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

AlteredAgain said:
Thinking is a function of our sixth sense organ which we call the brain.




I disagree, you can't feel anything with your brain. You can take in feeling and analyze it with it, but you can't feel anything with that organ, the organ of the mind.

Quote:


A blind person has all his senses amplified due to the loss of vision, including his ability to become more receptive to invisible energies.





...Um, ok. And?

Quote:


Metaphysical concepts can be talked about in great detail. It's just that one must be very articulate with the use of language when doing so.




Once again, disagree. You can't describe what the spirit is, because it is not the unknown - it is the unknowable. It can only be known with silent knowledge, something you just know, which does not need to be coded into language. You can't describe what God is - you can't say God is this or God is that - every definition you try to put on it only constraints your understanding.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Basilides]
    #5950949 - 08/10/06 03:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Could you provide any arguments for your belief or is it essentially dogma?


Edited by MushmanTheManic (08/10/06 04:05 PM)


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Lost after death [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5951063 - 08/10/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I disagree, you can't feel anything with your brain. You can take in feeling and analyze it with it, but you can't feel anything with that organ, the organ of the mind.

You can't feel anything with sight, or feel anything with hearing, a sense to me is a sensory organ that gathers interprets information, which the brain does, it actually utilizes all the five senses and assimilates the information into concepts in which one can relate, and as any other sense, if it goes out, it seizes its function, meaning it loses the ability to create meaning


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Lost after death [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5951074 - 08/10/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Perhaps you'd like a BBC article to verify it.. come on Mushy, this ain't PA&L  :laugh: :heart:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineFractalated
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Basilides]
    #5951189 - 08/10/06 04:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

One's awareness/consciousness/pneuma is not dependent at all on any physical/material phenomena.

Okay, this is a counter-logical position which I found very intriguing. However, no where did you back it up! I presented an argument and explained why I thought that way, and you basically said "No, it's this way."

Awareness is always awareness OF something. You cannot have a subject without an object. In fact, I'd say that perceiver and perceived are one.

Here's argumentation in terms of absolute Truth:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5949622#Post5949622


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Fractalated]
    #5951196 - 08/10/06 05:02 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You cannot have a subject without an object. In fact, I'd say that perceiver and perceived are one.




this is contradictory. if the perceiver and the percieved are one, then you can have a subject without an object (as both resolve into the subject).


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Fractalated]
    #5951213 - 08/10/06 05:08 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Fractalated said:
One's awareness/consciousness/pneuma is not dependent at all on any physical/material phenomena.

Okay, this is a counter-logical position which I found very intriguing. However, no where did you back it up! I presented an argument and explained why I thought that way, and you basically said "No, it's this way."

Awareness is always awareness OF something. You cannot have a subject without an object. In fact, I'd say that perceiver and perceived are one.

Here's argumentation in terms of absolute Truth:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5949622#Post5949622




Ok - a hypothetic for you.

You are awareness, but not of or in existence (ie, you died). But - you are nonetheless conscious. So what are you aware of?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineFractalated
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Deviate]
    #5951229 - 08/10/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

You cannot have a subject without an object. In fact, I'd say that perceiver and perceived are one.




this is contradictory. if the perceiver and the percieved are one, then you can have a subject without an object (as both resolve into the subject).




Not true. The perceiver is the perceived. Thus you can't really say you have either.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."


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OfflineFractalated
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Basilides]
    #5951239 - 08/10/06 05:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Ok - a hypothetic for you.

You are awareness, but not of or in existence (ie, you died). But - you are nonetheless conscious. So what are you aware of?


That's a meaningless statement. There cannot be anything 'outside of existence', for if something existed outside of existence, then it would exist and then couldn't be 'outside of existence'.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."


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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Fospher]
    #5951306 - 08/10/06 05:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
I disagree, you can't feel anything with your brain. You can take in feeling and analyze it with it, but you can't feel anything with that organ, the organ of the mind.




I never said anything about feeling. Quoting  CapLiberty  on this one.

Quote:


A blind person has all his senses amplified due to the loss of vision, including his ability to become more receptive to invisible energies.





Quote:

...Um, ok. And?




That's it. That's all i wanted to say. I wasn't dismissing your claim.

Quote:


Metaphysical concepts can be talked about in great detail. It's just that one must be very articulate with the use of language when doing so.




Quote:

Once again, disagree. You can't describe what the spirit is, because it is not the unknown - it is the unknowable. It can only be known with silent knowledge, something you just know, which does not need to be coded into language. You can't describe what God is - you can't say God is this or God is that - every definition you try to put on it only constraints your understanding.




Who said anything about spirit? I was talking about metaphysical concepts in general, that ideas such as reincarnation, life, death, duality, oneness, experience, reality, you name it, can be discussed, whether it's through metaphors, paradoxes, or simply subjective observations. I never stated that god could be defined..

I think you need to pay more attention to what you are reading. :rolleyes:


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Fractalated]
    #5951320 - 08/10/06 05:42 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Fractalated said:
Ok - a hypothetic for you.

You are awareness, but not of or in existence (ie, you died). But - you are nonetheless conscious. So what are you aware of?


That's a meaningless statement. There cannot be anything 'outside of existence', for if something existed outside of existence, then it would exist and then couldn't be 'outside of existence'.




My point exactly. You see nothingness, I see pneuma.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Lost after death [Re: Basilides]
    #5951600 - 08/10/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well a BBC article would be nice... but I don't want verification per se.
I am more interested in why you believe this. What lead you to these conclusions?


Edited by MushmanTheManic (08/10/06 06:49 PM)


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Lost after death [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #5952089 - 08/10/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

AlteredAgain said:
I never said anything about feeling. Quoting  CapLiberty  on this one.




I'm looking right at your post, and you define the brain as an organ for our sixth sense. How else could you perceive sense abide feeling
it? You can't think smells, or think touching someone. :lol:

Quote:

I was talking about metaphysical concepts in general, that ideas such as reincarnation, life, death, duality, oneness, experience...etc etc




Well, besides reality not being the metaphysical but the physical, and life, experience and death being events of this world, maybe I did pull a fast one with that statement a tad. Oh well, I posted that when I got up at 8:00 in the morning, so I'm officially excused! :lol:


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OfflineFractalated
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Re: Lost after death [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5952209 - 08/10/06 10:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Well a BBC article would be nice... but I don't want verification per se.
I am more interested in why you believe this. What lead you to these conclusions?




--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."


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