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 Silversoul
Rhizome
 
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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 Ego Death vs. Ego Transcendence 
#5931051 - 08/04/06 10:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I was reading something by Ken Wilber where he was talking about how many spiritual people tend to idealize a state of egolessness, but that ego transcendence does not involve getting rid of the ego at all. In fact, many enlightened masters may even have a big ego. The difference is that they have an awareness that extends beyond their ego. A small infant is pre-egoic. An ascended master is transegoic. Many people get lost in confusing the two states.
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 fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
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 Re: Ego Death vs. Ego Transcendence [Re: Silversoul]
#5931114 - 08/04/06 11:08 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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What does "a big ego" mean? A big identity? How does one quantify an ego as "big"?
   
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
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Droz
Love of Life
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Re: Ego Death vs. Ego Transcendence [Re: Silversoul]
#5931118 - 08/04/06 11:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Nice post, I don't think that we can actually get rid of the ego, without destroying your mind. I think that we can transcend it, as in look beyond it with it still existing. Which will show us somethings like stepping back and taking a look at the ego and becoming aware of what it actually is.
Better said as Manipulating the ego.
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Evolution of Time.
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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Ego Death vs. Ego Transcendence [Re: fireworks_god]
#5931142 - 08/04/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
What does "a big ego" mean? A big identity? How does one quantify an ego as "big"?
Perhaps "strong" would be a better description. Basically what I mean is a strong sense of self. It takes a strong ego to be a messiah.
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Kerbouchard
Stranger
Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 9,823
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Re: Ego Death vs. Ego Transcendence [Re: Silversoul]
#5931144 - 08/04/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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If you're beyond the Ego, or maximum ego, will this stop you from death, or fear of death. Will you be so far above death that all your ideas will actually amount to something?
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"War Doesn't Decide Who's Right... It Decides Who's Left."
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: Ego Death vs. Ego Transcendence [Re: Droz]
#5931155 - 08/04/06 11:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ego = mental definition of identity. One does not need to maintain a definition of their identity in order to fully experience their identity, as it is created in this moment. One can certainly transcend the preconceived notions of one's identity that obstruct one's present experience and become fully aware of the self as it occurs.
"The Self" is not the ego, "The Self" is "The Self".
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: Ego Death vs. Ego Transcendence [Re: Silversoul]
#5931624 - 08/04/06 02:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think the single most important contribution by Ken Wilber is the 'pre/trans fallacy" that you mention. Too many people - C.G. Jung included! - have mistakenly identified the prepersonal unconscious with the transpersonal consciousness. Jung did not consider a state of 'superconsciousness,' and even declined an opportunity to meet the great Jnana yogi Sri Ramana Maharshi, stating only that "I know the type."  "I know the type?" Pu-le-e-ease C.G.! Sri Ramana might have caused Jung (if he could've been humble enough, which he wasn't) to seriously modify his theory. For Jung it was not possible to transcend the ego and increase consciousness. For him, one loses consciousness to the extent that one transcends the ego:
"To us consciousness is inconceivable without an ego; it is equated with the relation of contents to an ego. If there is no ego there is nobody to be conscious of anything. The ego is therfore indispensible to the conscious process. The Eastern mind, however, has no difficulty in conceiving of a consciousness without an ego. Consciousness is deemed capable of transcending its ego condition; indeed, in its 'higher' forms, the ego disappears altogether. Such an ego-less mental condition can only be unconscious to us, for the simple reason that there would be nobody to witness it. I do not doubt the existence of mental ststaes transcending consciousness. But they lose their consciousness to exactly the same degree that they transcend consciousness. I cannot imagine a conscious mental state that does not refer to a subject, that is, to an ego. The ego may be depotentiated - divested , for instance, of its awareness of the body - but so long as there is awareness of something, there must be someone who is aware."
- C.G. Jung's Psychological Commentary to The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation: Or the Method of Realizing Nirvana by Knowing the Mind, pp. xxxvii-xxxix
Clearly the philosophical, not to mention the experiential existence of the transpersonal, of the "Transcendental Ego" (e.g., Husserl) is beyond the experience AND the imagination of Jung. Some indidviduals HAVE experienced the Plenum Void, the Clear Light, the Pleroma in rare states of Samadhi, or Jhanas, or the Unitive stage of mysticism wherein 'the Light of Compassion simply experiences Itself as Ecstasy' (e.g., Sat Chit Ananda). There is no 'room' for a contemplating subject, for that would be 'communion' not union wherein there is only ONE. The subject vanishes entirely with no self-referent, only the Absolute exists. The subject may then re-appear, but the Experience is brought back into consciousness and a continuity has been Experienced in which the subject is fully absorbed in the Transcendental Ego and then retracts from It as a separate ego taking some memory of the Experience back with him. If the Absolute or Transcendental Ego was unconsciousness as Jung said, then no memory of its Glory could remain! It would not be Glory, it would be identical with deep sleep!
Initially, even teachers like Ram Dass believed that an infant was in a state equivalent to high yogis, but this is not the case. Developmentally, infants have yet to develop an ego structure - one of the first processes of transcendence whereby a conscious (separate) ego differentiates itself from unconsciousness - even differentiation from the mother takes months! Baby bites the blanket. Baby bites his thumb. Ouch! The beginning of ego - the embodied ego. We need a strong and resilient ego in order to transcend the ego. A weakened ego is indicative of psychopathology, in fact a preponderance of Borderline Personality Disordered individuals with very tenuous ego structures often are attracted to Buddhism because of the misunderstood language of egolessness. The BPD individuals misunderstand weakened ego conditions for transcendental ego conditions. (see Jack Engler's 'Therapeutic Aims in Psychotherapy and Meditation: Developmental Stages in the Representation of Self' in Transformations of Consciousness: Conventional and Contemplative Perspectives on Development by Ken Wilber, Jack Engler & Daniel P. Brown)
Well, ya got me going. Your post leads into an area that I find absolutely crucial for one's self-development and for eliminating radically wrong ideas, many of which were held by our most esteemed teachers!
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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 Re: Ego Death vs. Ego Transcendence [Re: Silversoul]
#5931915 - 08/04/06 03:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
I was reading something by Ken Wilber where he was talking about how many spiritual people tend to idealize a state of egolessness, but that ego transcendence does not involve getting rid of the ego at all. In fact, many enlightened masters may even have a big ego. The difference is that they have an awareness that extends beyond their ego. A small infant is pre-egoic. An ascended master is transegoic. Many people get lost in confusing the two states.
Spot on!
  
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Disclaimer!?
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
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Loc: Pandurn
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Re: Ego Death vs. Ego Transcendence [Re: Silversoul]
#5932100 - 08/04/06 04:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Perhaps "strong" would be a better description. Basically what I mean is a strong sense of self. It takes a strong ego to be a messiah.
Exactly, I think.  One develops a stronger sense of self by eliminating mental preconceptions of the self and instead directly perceiving the self. One's sense of self will be strong when one is actually sensing the self as it occurs, instead of asserting what it already is (which is nonsense, it is in a state of continuous change resulting from constant interaction with reality).
Do you think this perspective I have described meshes with your point, or not? 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Ego Death vs. Ego Transcendence [Re: Silversoul]
#5932271 - 08/04/06 06:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
I was reading something by Ken Wilber where he was talking about how many spiritual people tend to idealize a state of egolessness, but that ego transcendence does not involve getting rid of the ego at all. In fact, many enlightened masters may even have a big ego. The difference is that they have an awareness that extends beyond their ego. A small infant is pre-egoic. An ascended master is transegoic. Many people get lost in confusing the two states.
I very much agree. I have often said here that without an ego the self is a dead duck. A healthy ego is strong at what it does best and gets out of the way of where it doesn't belong. Good post.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Syle
Kenai Sigh
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Posts: 6,678
Loc: WA
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Re: Ego Death vs. Ego Transcendence [Re: Icelander]
#5932282 - 08/04/06 06:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Silversoul said:
I was reading something by Ken Wilber where he was talking about how many spiritual people tend to idealize a state of egolessness, but that ego transcendence does not involve getting rid of the ego at all. In fact, many enlightened masters may even have a big ego. The difference is that they have an awareness that extends beyond their ego. A small infant is pre-egoic. An ascended master is transegoic. Many people get lost in confusing the two states.
I very much agree. I have often said here that without an ego the self is a dead duck. A healthy ego is strong at what it does best and gets out of the way of where it doesn't belong. Good post.
Sorry to get off topic, but Ice, I have to ask you, what do you do for a profession/career/job/whatever?
My curiosity has been peaked!
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https://kenaisigh.bandcamp.com/ <- Just completed the 2021 RPM challenge for February - An EP in one month (5 songs or 20 minutes). Check it out!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Ego Death vs. Ego Transcendence [Re: Syle]
#5932309 - 08/04/06 06:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Gynecologist.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Ego Death vs. Ego Transcendence [Re: Silversoul]
#5932376 - 08/04/06 06:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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The main problem I have with 'ego talk' is I'm never quite sure what is meant by "ego." It's a rather enigmatic word. Ego being tautamount to the Self? Ego meaning the concept of the Self? Ego in the Freudian sense? Ego as consciousness or awareness? Lego my ego?
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Loc: Pandurn
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Ego is one of those words that people insist on using even though there are more accurate representations of what they are trying to express with the word that do not result in an unusual amount of ambiguity, just like god. 
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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dream_alchemy
*&*
Registered: 01/15/07
Posts: 135
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Clearly the philosophical, not to mention the experiential existence of the transpersonal, of the "Transcendental Ego" (e.g., Husserl) is beyond the experience AND the imagination of Jung. Some indidviduals HAVE experienced the Plenum Void, the Clear Light, the Pleroma in rare states of Samadhi, or Jhanas, or the Unitive stage of mysticism wherein 'the Light of Compassion simply experiences Itself as Ecstasy' (e.g., Sat Chit Ananda). There is no 'room' for a contemplating subject, for that would be 'communion' not union wherein there is only ONE. The subject vanishes entirely with no self-referent, only the Absolute exists. The subject may then re-appear, but the Experience is brought back into consciousness and a continuity has been Experienced in which the subject is fully absorbed in the Transcendental Ego and then retracts from It as a separate ego taking some memory of the Experience back with him. If the Absolute or Transcendental Ego was unconsciousness as Jung said, then no memory of its Glory could remain! It would not be Glory, it would be identical with deep sleep!
How long do these experiences 'normally' last?
moment to moment
longer and longer i
presume
awesome post
hi
cry
laugh
flaaberghast
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I'm just passing thru u
Edited by dream_alchemy (01/18/07 06:31 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
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Re: Ego Death vs. Ego Transcendence [Re: dream_alchemy]
#6474948 - 01/18/07 09:50 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think an apt metaphor with regard to a question about temporal duration would be the movie 'Contact' with Jody Foster. To observers, her experience appeared to last a few seconds. To her, she had more than 12 hours of experience. This theme has been worked up in 'The Devil's Advocate,' in 'The Last Temptation of Christ,' and many others. In death, the experience of the dying, of The Light, 'lasts' momentarily from the perspective of the dying ego and to observers who might see a Buddha-smile on the face of the dying. But, paradoxically, that 'Moment' is an Eternal Moment, which does not 'last' but which does not end either. Like the theoretical observer of an object falling into a Black Hole, at the Event Horizon, the image of the body already sucked into the Black Hole remains suspended indefinately. Metaphorically, the body is gone, sqashed to Quarks, but the image (like the soul/spirit) remains, indefinately. Just a metaphor to try and elucidate paradox.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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ck10n3
Imagine
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"Gnothi se auton" ("Know Thyself") inscribed on the Sun god Apollo's Oracle of Delphi temple in ancient Greece.
"entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem" ("entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity.") Occam's razor.
Edited by ck10n3 (01/19/07 03:35 PM)
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