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passitbobbie
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Half of the posts here are about pot....
#5930349 - 08/04/06 01:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I know pot is an entheogen but I don't really want to read/sift through the pot posts to read about other entheogens. Maybe there can be a Pot/Succulents sub-forum?
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Organic
Lloyd
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5930481 - 08/04/06 04:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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This has been discussed lately, check Website Announcements & Feedback (may have to click through a few pages)
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Vertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5930607 - 08/04/06 06:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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actualy, cannbis is not an 'entheogen' as such. at the very most it can be a sort of substitute teacher...
the weed conversations are alot different from discussion of other plants. the greed and ego behind these discussion never fail to amaze me. neither does the shallowness, all these weed topics are causing the garden to degenerate.
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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Organic
Lloyd
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5930675 - 08/04/06 07:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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What is an entheogen for one may not be for another, it is highly subjective. I don't think anyone here is in any authoritative position over what is, and isn't an entheogen for everyone... That would be quite the ego spill
This forum is more active, interesting, and better-moderated than ever, I don't see why you are complaining, nor how a discussion can have an underlying greedy ego.
Knowledge for all I say...
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RateLimitEnzyme
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5930903 - 08/04/06 09:40 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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The word entheogen is a modern term derived from two Ancient Greek words, ?????? (entheos) and ???????? (genesthai). Entheos literally means "god (theos) within", more freely translated "inspired". The Greeks used it as a term of praise for poets and other artists. Genesthai means "to cause to be" or becoming. So an entheogen is "that which causes God (or godly inspiration) to be within a person"...
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shamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: RateLimitEnzyme]
#5930960 - 08/04/06 10:05 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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so by that definition alcohol is an entheogen for me, i sometimes drink until i speak in tounges and think i can walk on water. (j\k)
anyways, if you look at the history to cannabis especially in middle east cannabis falls into the category entheogen just as much as peyote does in america from a historical point of view and like allready mentioned its a subjective thing. and the plants many uses troughout history and present day makes it a ethnobotanical per definition and cannabis belongs in this forum and i dont see any problems with all the cannabis posts
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
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Vertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5931265 - 08/04/06 11:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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no actualy we dont get to make up the dictionary as we go along. words have definitions and the definition for entheogen is as follows:
Quote:
nov. verb.— Plant sacraments or shamanic inebriants evoking religious ecstasy or vision; commonly used in the archaic world in divination for shamanic healing, and in Holy Communion, for example during the Initiation to the Eleusinian Mysteries or the Vedic Soma sacrifice. Literally: becoming divine within. Hence: Age of Entheogens nov. verb., Entheogenic nov. verb.
that doesent sound like a 'buzz' now does it? cannabis does not facilitate holy communion, therefore it is not an entheogen.
if you go down that road you can call caffeine an entheogen and then wtf does that word mean anymore?
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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Organic
Lloyd
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5931440 - 08/04/06 01:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
cannabis does not facilitate holy communion, therefore it is not an entheogen.
...for you.
If you smoke on joint like it were a cigarrette habit, you're not using it as an entheogen.
If you're sitting outside in nature, smoking a bowl, then yes, I think it can bring one closer to nature, God, JibbaJabba, or wherever they want to go.
The entheogenic trait isn't inherent in the substance, but in the user and for what purpose they use.
Sure, mushrooms have been used for centuries for visionary, entheogenic experiences, but what say you to those that eat an eighth and drink a case of beer to party? Are they really getting closer to the divine, or participating in 'holy communion'?
If you notice, that definition did not strictly list substances that are entheogens, so it is obviously subjective and person-specific. If one were to take that definition in a most literal sense, no post 1900 drugs would fit as entheogens--MDMA, LSD, etc would be nothing more than a trick high, comparable to a huff of gasoline.
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shamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5931449 - 08/04/06 01:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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^^^ well said i totally agree
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
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Vertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5931453 - 08/04/06 01:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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just because a list is not given doesent mean u can fill any plant you like. there is a very specific description of the effects of entheogens, and weed simply doesent fit the bill.
"holy communion" doesent mean to get closer to, it means to be in the presence of.
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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Organic
Lloyd
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5931471 - 08/04/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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We'll have to agree to disagree on the effects of marijuana, because I do not understand your denial that some could use marijuana as a tool just as they could use the classic psychedelics/entheogens (which, quite frankly marijuana is often and widely considered part of), and said substance may affect them differently than you
Fortunately the dictionary writers whose definition holds more weight left entheogen open for subjective application.
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5931472 - 08/04/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think MJ is a very powerful ethno and sacrement.
But our society and they way we are made us abuse her from the get go.
So its spark becomes less and less relevent to a point.
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Vertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5931598 - 08/04/06 02:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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no they didnt, i think you fail to grasp the concept of "divine communion"...
psychedelic is not the same as entheogen. not all entheogens are psychedelics, not all psychedelics are entheogens.
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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Organic
Lloyd
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5931640 - 08/04/06 02:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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No, I "grasp" it quite fine. While you're teaching me the wonders of reading comprehension, allow me to have the floor for a lecture.
Quote:
commonly used in the archaic world in divination for shamanic healing, and in Holy Communion,
Now lets apply CONTEXT
Quote:
nov. verb.— Plant sacraments or shamanic inebriants evoking religious ecstasy or vision; commonly used in the archaic world in divination for shamanic healing, and in Holy Communion, for example during the Initiation to the Eleusinian Mysteries or the Vedic Soma sacrifice. Literally: becoming divine within. Hence: Age of Entheogens nov. verb., Entheogenic nov. verb.
It is talking about a common reason for use, not THE reason for use. Nowhere in this definition, does it define an effect of the substance except
Quote:
Plant sacraments or shamanic inebriants evoking religious ecstasy or vision
Quote:
becoming divine within
I'm sorry, but generations of marijuana smokers will disagree with you if you deny these effects to them. Once again, it may not bring you in the "presence" of God , but you and your reasons for using marijuana are not everyone's.
Face it, you are alone in your argument, you are sidestepping my questions, and you are constructing your own interpretation as if it were the definition as you see beneficial.
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Vertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5931650 - 08/04/06 02:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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thats because most MJ smokers are immature.
a weed buzz is not in any way comparable to religious extacy, nor does it enduce visions.
it happens, but it is way to rare to be of any practical use to any shaman.
becoming divine within has nothing to do with being stoned. maybe were just being a bit selfinduldgent when we smoke to much?
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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Organic
Lloyd
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5931668 - 08/04/06 02:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
thats because most MJ smokers are immature.
All mushroom users turn into a glass of orange juice.
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a weed buzz is not in any way comparable to religious extacy, nor does it enduce visions.
For you.
Quote:
it happens, but it is way to rare to be of any practical use to any shaman.
Do you have any evidence to back this up or are you just drawing off stereotypes again?
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becoming divine within has nothing to do with being stoned.
For you.
Quote:
maybe were just being a bit selfinduldgent when we smoke to much?
Well, I'm glad Buddha's latest incarnation set us straight
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RateLimitEnzyme
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
#5931670 - 08/04/06 02:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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The word "entheogen" was coined in 1979 by a group of ethnobotanists and scholars of mythology (Carl A. P. Ruck, Jeremy Bigwood, Danny Staples, Richard Evans Schultes, Jonathan Ott and R. Gordon Wasson). They defined "entheogen" as:
"In a strict sense, only those vision-producing drugs that can be shown to have figured in shamanic or religious rites would be designated entheogens, but in a looser sense, the term could also be applied to other drugs, both natural and artificial, that induce alterations of consciousness similar to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional entheogens."
So, it depends which part of the definition you subscribe to...
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Organic
Lloyd
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: RateLimitEnzyme]
#5931675 - 08/04/06 02:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I subscribe to the whole definition, as does most of the ethno community. Dissecting and exploiting a portion of the definition seems, I don't know...elitist?
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RateLimitEnzyme
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5931683 - 08/04/06 02:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vertigo6911 said: no actualy we dont get to make up the dictionary as we go along. words have definitions and the definition for entheogen is as follows:
Quote:
nov. verb.— Plant sacraments or shamanic inebriants evoking religious ecstasy or vision; commonly used in the archaic world in divination for shamanic healing, and in Holy Communion, for example during the Initiation to the Eleusinian Mysteries or the Vedic Soma sacrifice. Literally: becoming divine within. Hence: Age of Entheogens nov. verb., Entheogenic nov. verb.
that doesent sound like a 'buzz' now does it? cannabis does not facilitate holy communion, therefore it is not an entheogen.
if you go down that road you can call caffeine an entheogen and then wtf does that word mean anymore?
Dont confuse the etymology of a word with the definition...
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Vertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5931695 - 08/04/06 02:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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pick up a dictionary and tell me what it says under 'divinity'. then find the entry for 'communion' and tell me what it reads.
and wile your at it go read some McKenna and pay special attention when he talks about peering out into the darkness from the comfortable safety of your porch...
theres a vast difference between feeling closer to god and looking your maker in the eye my friend.
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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Organic
Lloyd
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5931704 - 08/04/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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You are still misinterpreting the wording within the definition of entheogen you posted yourself, so until you comprehend it, this debate is over. Until then, consider my response to all of your replies my lecture on reading comprehension a few posts up.
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Jaeger
Dreamer
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5931922 - 08/04/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Who cares guys, just take it easy. No reason to argue over the internet about something that doesn't really matter at all. All it does is clutter the forum, kill the thread, and piss people off.
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888
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5932005 - 08/04/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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do you know what entheogen means?
Quote:
at the very most it can be a sort of substitute teacher...
I think your dumb and have just as much of an ego as those you talk about, just in a different way. Commercial cannabis grown by profiteers has no where near the irie vibe as a spiritually grown plant. The plant has many lessons and embodies the way of the universe. There is ancient artwork of buddhas with mushrooms and cannabis. The plant provides all that man needs... food, clothes, shelter, medicine, and spirituality. You speak with no words fool.
But, ya I think cannabis should be a seperate forum.
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888
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5932043 - 08/04/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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What do you know about practical use to a shaman? You are full of crap....... your one of those idiots that talks allot, doesnt get outside, and can't handle a dose. Am I right? You have more to learn from that plant than the dumb books you waste your time reading. Why don't you really do something instead of just reading about it and repeating what you think you know.
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Pingasa
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: 888]
#5932085 - 08/04/06 04:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Pointless arguments aside, cannabis should have its own forum. It would just make it easier to find a bunch of information on cannabis. Does it matter weather or not it can be considered an entheogen?
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Vertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Pingasa]
#5932218 - 08/04/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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yeah i guess i should not be surprised to find your collective idol to be a guy famous for doing nothing for a very long time...
and yeah i think it does matter, language always matters. but your right, were going way off topic here...
or are we? this is exactly the kind of crap im talking about actualy. whenever weed is discussed you run into these idiots who try to boost their ego with it. we dont see this kinda crap when people are talking about true entheogens now do we?
and BTW, using the word 'dose' when describing cannabis... seriously...
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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shamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5932238 - 08/04/06 05:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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by saying cannabis is not an entheogen you are ignoring alot of history and present religious use of cannabis here., examples rastafarian movement, ancient jews, early muslims of the sufi orderl, the hashhashin, the hindus, the sikh, cantheism and the list goes on.
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
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ngnyus
the madherbalist
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
#5932298 - 08/04/06 06:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I happen to agree with shamantra here, even though I very rarely smoke pot myself, I would consider it an etheogen, sorry vertigo, I agree with your point too, but have you ever smoked with a true rasta?.. it is definitely used as communion, at least as much as main stream christians use bread and juice, and noone here is complaining about the opium poppy discussions?!?! . On the other hand someone PLEASE start a sub forum. Lately it seems like about a third of the posts here are on this subject, and frankly its annoying, in common language noone calls marijuana an etheogen, think about it, whether it is or not we all know what we are talking about when we say etheogens, and pot just kind of sticks out like a sore thumb IMHOP.
-------------------- You reap what you sow
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Vertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: ngnyus]
#5933683 - 08/05/06 02:37 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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well then your both wrong. inscence was used religiously too, that doesent make it an entheogen.
Quote:
In Greek the word entheos means literally “god (theos ) within,” and was used to describe the condition that follows when one is inspired and possessed by the god that has entered one’s body.
also: any tribe with a shaman dependant on MJ alone is going to die off pretty quickly. u think weed will tel him where the game is going to be found? u think weed will tell them what the wether is going to be like? you honestly think u can run a small society on the information gleaned from weed?
i dont care what any of u 'consider' an entheogen. will you get it trough your thick fucking heads that u dont get to make it up as you go along, thats what u have the word psychedelic for!
an enthoegen is something that lets u TALK TO GOD. if u think weed does that then i got some religion to sell you guys. just send me all your money and ill get you to the afterlife in a jiffy...
get out your checkbooks folks, haleluyagobble!
btw, im a mod at a forum of intelectual discussion about these very things. i have scholars behind me on this, and it is in fact people who wrote the fucking book on shamanism that taught me this simple truth, not some stoners unedjucated oppinion.
why is it you guys want weed to be holy so badly anyways? you sure it has nothing to do with your own smoking habits?
seriously, your placing weed in the same catagory with shrooms and ayahuasca. you dont feel the slightest bit silly about that??
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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shamantra
hobbyethnobotanist
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5933734 - 08/05/06 03:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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your responses are very childish at best. its not the first thread you go on a rampage like this, so first of all you should learn how to respons like someone that claims to be as educated as you do.
, as allready mentioned your wrong and you are the one that should read up. i can take more examples, the sacred beverage in the veda texts that many thinks may have been mushroom (its a lot of debate on what was the original beverage also known as Soma) was replaced with marijuana in the 7-11th century in India where cannabis was eaten and they communicated with the gods. this is all in the books and scientific journals, ill help you find it. read up on journal of psycadelic drugs search for articles by Michael R. Aldrich. that alone qualifies cannabis to be concideret an entheogen according to the definition you just mentioned yourself.
of course it has nothing to do with my own smoking habits, and for me cannabis is not holy but the history speaks for itself and im facinated by history and have read a lot of it too.
I would like to hear what scholars you have in your back, what books you are reffering to and so on, i can at least provide sources and back up anyhing i say here in scientific litterature (just try me)
or maybe you dont care because you are a mod in a unnamed forum..
you should stop acting so immature when someone doesnt agree with you, this is not the first time vertigo.
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
Edited by shamantra (08/05/06 04:12 AM)
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p_dot_cubensis
Failed MushroomHunter
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
#5933748 - 08/05/06 04:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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You know what I've actually noticed throughout this whole post. You all acted childish and got way off topic arguing about if it is an entheogen or not.....
The point of the original topic is that there are many posts about it that it kind of deserves its own forum if anything. It's unique enough and widely used enough. This forum could be Misc. Entheogens technically...
The originally point of the post was so that the many people visiting this forum for other common things other than pot, won't have to go through it all.
If anything i think it deserves its own forum anyway, duh.
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Edited by p_dot_cubensis (08/05/06 04:21 AM)
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Organic
Lloyd
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5933769 - 08/05/06 04:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
whenever weed is discussed you run into these idiots who try to boost their ego with it. we dont see this kinda crap when people are talking about true entheogens now do we?
Flame? You are the only one spewing personal attacks, is that egoless? It is a common tactic to attack the debaters instead of the topic when you are losing. You seem to do this in every debate I've seen you participate in. Childishness will get you nothing. Have you considered that your ego being annihilated is making you feel 'ego-inferior'?
Quote:
well then your both wrong.
Quote:
i dont care what any of u 'consider' an entheogen.
Once again, thankfully you have no authority over what we value and believe.
Quote:
btw, im a mod at a forum of intelectual discussion about these very things. i have scholars behind me on this, and it is in fact people who wrote the fucking book on shamanism that taught me this simple truth, not some stoners unedjucated oppinion.
I bet that forum is a peach. Seriously, you do not grasp your own definition you are posting, cannot spell intellectual or uneducated, and you are going on a condescending rampage of EVERY poster in this thread that disagrees with you (everyone so far).
Nowhere does your own selective definition say "Must give you a direct telephone line to God", that is simply a reason for use which YOU are acting like is the ONLY reason for use. It is simply untrue and you are spreading misinformation because you've been backed into a corner and are incapable of bowing out gracefully.
I suggest you re-read the definition posted by the coiners of the term, paying special attention to:
in a looser sense, the term could also be applied to other drugs, both natural and artificial, that induce alterations of consciousness similar to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional entheogens.
No one cares what you or some 'scholars' have to say about it. Entheogens are personally determined things, not something regulated by an elitist crowd of modern apartment-dwelling 'shamans' trying to sell their books.
WHO ARE YOU OR THEM TO DETERMINE THE VALIDITY OF SOMEONE'S EXPERIENCE WITH 'GOD'?
It doesn't take a whopping dose of a hard indole to make you see God. Some people are wired differently and pot CAN take them there. Who is to say mushrooms/DMT/etc don't just show us a part of our own psyche which we feel is God at the time, and it is a trick? Like shamantra said, entire cultures are devoted to using marijuana as an entheogen.
Acting like mushrooms, ayahuasca, and LSD-type substances are the only shamanic inebriants reaks of close-mindedness and elitism. You think the areas of the world these don't exist have no shamans? I'd like to see a guy dressed in plaid, speaking "scholarly", and touting his online moderator credentials approach a tribe of Rastas and tell them they are smoking a plant that does nothing but give you a 'buzz'...
I'm afraid none of us will accomplish anything with you from a quick review of your ratings and previous posts. I suggest you not insult everyone and their beliefs personally, when you have nothing to back it but your OPINION (NOT FACTS), it is only making you look bad and not be taken seriously.
I'd appreciate it if you responded to specific points we are making instead of disregarding them and going on another irrelevant, hateful tangent of assumptions, flames, and all-around childish behavior.
BTW, before you go "LOL R U STONED", no I'm not. I haven't smoked in a while. I am also not taking this thread personally or am upset over anything, sorry if it comes off that way. My style is too forceful sometimes, believe me, I know this and am working on it, but it gets the point across so I make no apologies for the truth.
Edited by Organic (08/05/06 05:10 AM)
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FooMan
Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5933831 - 08/05/06 06:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Vertigo6911 said: btw, im a mod at a forum of intelectual discussion about these very things. i have scholars behind me on this, and it is in fact people who wrote the fucking book on shamanism that taught me this simple truth, not some stoners unedjucated oppinion.
Spelling obviously isn't a big factor in that intellectual forum of educated opinions, huh?
Do yourself a favor and read back over your posts to see what a narcissistic prick you sound like. You're talking about other people boosting their ego when you are the only one here with a "holier than thou" attitude. What's up with the name calling? Yeah, you're real "mod" material for an intellectual discussion forum
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Cubenisseur
Mad Props
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: FooMan]
#5933850 - 08/05/06 07:05 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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The last two posts, I am in full agreement with...just to lend my support to this issue.
And a separate pot category sounds good to me too.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,228
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5933858 - 08/05/06 07:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
When you are high on a lot of pot:
-your shortterm memory is shot -you are under heavy sedation -you get racing thoughts
All in all I notice over and over is that being high on pot renders a user inert. When a drug is strong, its nature becomes more apparent.
-you can't follow the plot of a movie or conversation -your emotional response to anything but a pot-effect is reduced -you can't "hold that thought" because your memory is shot and your mind is racing
This contrasts strongly with all other herbs and drugs generally considered to be "entheogenic". Instead of lighting up your mind, a heavy dose throws you into a stupor. Instead of egoloss, you cease to function.
Sure, the weed can get you high, but the first thing most people who are high on pot want to do is light up again until they are stoned - heavily sedated, a state akin to that of Opium but far less pleasurable. A Dutch comedian called pot "Heroin ExtraLight" and though thats a stiff statement many people use it that way.
You can't flee into mushrooms and get away with it. You can very easily do this with pot. Just roll a big one and the Klingons will set the disruptor on stun and you lose track of what bothered you.
Judging definitions used above, Alcohol is an entheogen too, because if you're slightly inebriated, you can really get somewhere.
I disagree with that definition. With effort, weed and alcohol can be used as entheogens, but if the word has any meaning then that is reserved for the drugs and herbs that give spiritual revelation to most people who enter the state with an open mind, and even to a lot of people who merely take it to get "fucked up".
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
Edited by Asante (08/05/06 07:30 AM)
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Organic
Lloyd
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
#5933880 - 08/05/06 07:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Instead of lighting up your mind, a heavy dose throws you into a stupor. Instead of egoloss, you cease to function.
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Just roll a big one and the Klingons will set the disruptor on stun and you lose track of what bothered you.
Not in my experience. If I smoke a lot, my worries and troubles are amplified. I don't go into a stupor, I examine myself more thoroughly and the world around me. I actually took LSD before smoking pot, and I've always found pot to be like LSD-lite for me. I get very similar effects on high doses. Individual strain makeup is largely the factor here...if you are smoking bulk commercial indoor, you're likely smoking stupor weed because that is what grows well indoor. If you are on the beaches of Jamaica, under your 15 foot equatorial sativa, I'd imagine you would feel quite different after a couple of joints.
I don't use pot as an entheogen all the time, just like I've taken LSD or mushrooms to enjoy myself. You don't have to be shitting and puking yourself, in an introspective nightmare or state of bliss everytime you are on a drug for it to be an entheogen. It is all about your intentions.
Can alcohol or caffeine be an entheogen? Hmmm...probably not, unless you are extremely determined. The headspace is nowhere near as 'entheogenic' as pot, with alcohol you can be philosophical, but too much is undoubtedly for everyone I've met stupor material. If you take a sip to aid your meditation, then I think you're using it as an entheogenic tool, whether the substance is an entheogen or not. Is meditation entheogenic in THAT sense? Master your mind, and YES...no shamanic inebriants involved.
For those that have used pot AS a sacrament their entire lives, because it is ingrained in their culture, marijuana is DEFINETLY an entheogen. Are those people posting in this forum? Probably not, but that does not exclude their experience and culture from validity.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,228
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5933891 - 08/05/06 08:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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You are right, generalizing is wrong.
But still, the general trend is stupefication and withdrawing into a racing mind.
I've recently taken up hashish myself after more than a thousand days of abstinence, and though what I find is of value, I now once again see the insidiousness of what happens inside vs what the outside observer notices.
Really, a lot of potsmokers have the wrong idea about what objectively happens to them.
That aside, I put the matter of a designated subforum once again under discussion among the staff. The Cannabis people will have all their eggs into one basket and the main Garden crowd will see the usual diversity of topics return.
Ultimately I'm in favor of a main Cannabis Culture forum, invisible to n00bs like ODD is, placed in the top category of the forums. I feel the Cannabis Culture forum fulfills a genuine need, but simply stands apart from the main topic of this site. Its a long road from Terence McKenna to Cheech and Chong.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Organic
Lloyd
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
#5933901 - 08/05/06 08:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've recently taken up hashish myself after more than a thousand days of abstinence, and though what I find is of value, I now once again see the insidiousness of what happens inside vs what the outside observer notices.
What do you mean by this? Like listening to a stoner conversation while sober and thinking this is ridiculous, then smoking, and getting into what they are saying? Stoner rambling is a lot different than smoking alone and releasing yourself into the full effects. I doubt rastas discuss the profoundness of Cheetos or the satellite monitoring pot smoker Cheeto consumption.
The people I've seen on massive doses of LSD or mushrooms, talking or screaming to God look schizophrenic. Do I write them off as simply crazy though?
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Really, a lot of potsmokers have the wrong idea about what objectively happens to them.
I agree, but I would say the same about every other drug in the world. Like it or not, most people take mushrooms to get fucked up and party.
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Ultimately I'm in favor of a main Cannabis Culture forum, invisible to n00bs like ODD is, placed in the top category of the forums.
That is interesting...hmm. I like it, but I think a hidden subforum would be better. A main forum would attract more post whores just trying to get in.
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Its a long road from Terence McKenna to Cheech and Chong.
Eloquency and intentions may be the only gap.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,228
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5933905 - 08/05/06 08:13 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Can alcohol or caffeine be an entheogen? Hmmm...probably not, unless you are extremely determined.
Nontheless was there wine on the table at the Last Supper of Jesus Christ, and the Islamic Sufi priests used coffee to stay awake during all-night prayer and meditation sessions.
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with alcohol you can be philosophical, but too much is undoubtedly for everyone I've met stupor material.
Almost everyone sinks into a stupor if they take enough weed, and the initial excitement has passed. In fact hashish was used to stupefy the Hashishins (and no I didnt think it turned them into killers LOL)
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if you are smoking bulk commercial indoor, you're likely smoking stupor weed because that is what grows well indoor. If you are on the beaches of Jamaica, under your 15 foot equatorial sativa, I'd imagine you would feel quite different after a couple of joints.
The majority of the people here smoke the commercial indoor stuff. Even the Jamaican christmas tree works through THC, which itself is a CNS-depressant in high doses.
Quote:
For those that have used pot AS a sacrament their entire lives, because it is ingrained in their culture, marijuana is DEFINETLY an entheogen. Are those people posting in this forum? Probably not, but that does not exclude their experience and culture from validity.
The same goes for alcohol. To Catholic priests wine is their entheogen, and the sip they take from the chalice has more than symbolic effects.
With things like mushrooms and salvia it takes deliberate intent for it NOT to be entheogenic for most people. With alcohol and weed it takes determination to keep the initial entheogenic state going, once the novelty wears off.
I'm not looking down on pot, I'm looking differently at pot than I do at lets say mushrooms.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Organic
Lloyd
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 5,774
Loc: Overlook
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
#5933910 - 08/05/06 08:23 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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The majority of the people here smoke the commercial indoor stuff. Even the Jamaican christmas tree works through THC, which itself is a CNS-depressant in high doses.
This is true. I don't think slight sedation nullifies intentions though... I get couchlock from mushrooms much worse than any pot I've ever smoked.
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The same goes for alcohol. To Catholic priests wine is their entheogen, and the sip they take from the chalice has more than symbolic effects.
I haven't ever really thought this way about alcohol or coffee, thanks. I know tobacco is certainly entheogenic for some Native American cultures, a substance which when the majority of it's users intentions are applied certainly goes against the traditional entheogen definition.
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With things like mushrooms and salvia it takes deliberate intent for it NOT to be entheogenic for most people.
I think that is a little idealistic. Salvia is sold in sex shops and some of the users say all it does is get them horny.
Presentation and expectations...
Like most mushroom users are young, their dealer isn't going to tell them "You're gonna talk to God, man"...they'll say "These are going to get you fucked up", and the user will expect and perceive it as such.
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I'm not looking down on pot, I'm looking differently at pot than I do at lets say mushrooms.
I understand. That's fair and you make a good argument, I'm glad this thread is finally done degrading and we're accomplishing something.
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5933918 - 08/05/06 08:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Vertigo6911 said: the weed conversations are alot different from discussion of other plants. the greed and ego behind these discussion never fail to amaze me. neither does the shallowness, all these weed topics are causing the garden to degenerate.
I hate it when people insist on completely over-generalizing about users. I happen to be helping a friend grow a small amount of marijuana, and it happens to not be out of 'greed' or 'ego'...
Quote:
actualy, cannbis is not an 'entheogen' as such. at the very most it can be a sort of substitute teacher...
To me this seems like about as shallow as these conversations can get. You seem to have the ego to decide marijuana isn't an entheogen, despite millenniums of human spiritual use...
-------------------- Know your self. Know your substance. Know your source. The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
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Posts: 3,222
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5933920 - 08/05/06 08:33 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vertigo6911 said: no actualy we dont get to make up the dictionary as we go along.
Hahahaha... who made the dictionary? God?
-------------------- Know your self. Know your substance. Know your source. The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,228
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5933932 - 08/05/06 08:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
What do you mean by this? Like listening to a stoner conversation while sober and thinking this is ridiculous
Nope. When people get increasingly stoned, you are watching them get increasingly impaired. The end stage of this is that they hang in their chair, eyelids drooping and jaw ajar, occasionally moaning or returning the exact sentance you spoke to them over and over for a minute or so, because it does just not compute. When they come to a little they roll a joint, until they're too stuporous again, throw the half-finished joint in their glass and its chronic ward time again for another hour.
There is no stoner rambling at all, there is stupor. There is no conciousness expansion in there, there is loss of consciousness.
This is what Dutch drug agencies call "hardblowen" which roughly translates "using pot as a hard drug" and I've seen it on several occasions in several instances. I've also seen that if you prevent someone who is very high from their "energetically doing stuff", that they sink into that very same stupor, that them being "activated" by a high dose of weed is a coping strategy to prevent the stupor.
By the end of the day THC is a CNS-depressant.
I have seen people use a lot of weed during the coming-up of ECSTASY. The net result was a stuporous overlay over ecstasy's entheogenic effect. The much desired "loving magic" of Ecstasy simply did not occur: the pot facilitated withdrawing into yourself rather than opening up. At the HEIGHT of 125 miligrams of MDMA I asked said person how he felt. The answer was a sighed hum: "stoned", void of emotion, said in a voice as if he was utterly bored out of his skull.
Despite a fullblown dose of the purest MDMA, the session was utterly wasted, not just for him but for the entire session group because instead of the tender, delicate spiritual state MDMA invoked we now had a zombie on our hands who didnt partake in the group process but occasionally echoed a sentance he heard spoken, in a desparately futile attempt to join in with the group.
Said person has said that he was going to quit the weed over and over again about thirty times... in the last six months or so. But then, moments later, he shrugs his shoulders and gets more weed and he's off to his inner world again, where nothing in the outside world matters anymore. He started out enthusiastically exclaiming pot's "entheogenic value", but within a few weeks he smoked more days than not, and that to excess.
Its utterly tragic to have to witness that, and his case by no means is an exception. This ofcourse biases me.
Pot only is entheogenically useful if used occasionally and moderately, and then in designated events where effort is taken to retain and enhance its entheogenicity.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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shamantra
hobbyethnobotanist
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Posts: 1,177
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
#5933946 - 08/05/06 08:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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you are forgetting the psycadelic properties to cannabis I think. Have you ever eaten hashish? its about set and setting. and you cannot disregard cannabis as a entheogen because it is wildy abused, then you must disregard mushrooms as entheogen as well because its hardly used as a entheogen foremost in the western world today if the use in the western world is what decides if a substance is an entheogen or not.
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
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Organic
Lloyd
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 5,774
Loc: Overlook
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
#5933953 - 08/05/06 08:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nope. When people get increasingly stoned, you are watching them get increasingly impaired. The end stage of this is that they hang in their chair, eyelids drooping and jaw ajar, occasionally moaning or returning the exact sentance you spoke to them over and over for a minute or so, because it does just not compute. When they come to a little they roll a joint, until they're too stuporous again, throw the half-finished joint in their glass and its chronic ward time again for another hour.
All I can say is that I've never experienced that or seen it happen, and I'm glad.
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Its utterly tragic to have to witness that, and his case by no means is an exception.
Abuse of anything, to me, negates the entheogenic properties of the drug. It's unfortunate you've had such negative experiences with pot smokers
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Pot only is entheogenically useful if used occasionally and moderately, and then in designated events where effort is taken to retain and enhance its entheogenicity.
I agree with this as a general rule, but there are exceptions. If you smoke every session as a prayer, like many Rastas do, it is entheogenic.
Culture seems to be mold our biases and opinions against pot as an entheogen, but I think a keen eye focused on pre-1960 historical use would suggest otherwise.
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5933957 - 08/05/06 08:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vertigo6911 said: yeah i guess i should not be surprised to find your collective idol to be a guy famous for doing nothing for a very long time...
and yeah i think it does matter, language always matters. but your right, were going way off topic here...
or are we? this is exactly the kind of crap im talking about actualy. whenever weed is discussed you run into these idiots who try to boost their ego with it.
Like Vertigo.
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we dont see this kinda crap when people are talking about true entheogens now do we?
No, please leave this forum, and keep your closed minded point of view closed in your own mind.
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and BTW, using the word 'dose' when describing cannabis... seriously...
You must not take your cannabis in doses...?
...
?
-------------------- Know your self. Know your substance. Know your source. The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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Organic
Lloyd
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 5,774
Loc: Overlook
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
#5933959 - 08/05/06 08:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
then you must disregard mushrooms as entheogen as well because its hardly used as a entheogen foremost in the western world today if the use in the western world is what decides if a substance is an entheogen or not.
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
#5933993 - 08/05/06 09:15 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said: When you are high on a lot of pot:
-your shortterm memory is shot -you are under heavy sedation -you get racing thoughts
All in all I notice over and over is that being high on pot renders a user inert. When a drug is strong, its nature becomes more apparent.
-you can't follow the plot of a movie or conversation -your emotional response to anything but a pot-effect is reduced -you can't "hold that thought" because your memory is shot and your mind is racing
This contrasts strongly with all other herbs and drugs generally considered to be "entheogenic". Instead of lighting up your mind, a heavy dose throws you into a stupor. Instead of egoloss, you cease to function.
Sure, the weed can get you high, but the first thing most people who are high on pot want to do is light up again until they are stoned - heavily sedated, a state akin to that of Opium but far less pleasurable. A Dutch comedian called pot "Heroin ExtraLight" and though thats a stiff statement many people use it that way.
You can't flee into mushrooms and get away with it. You can very easily do this with pot. Just roll a big one and the Klingons will set the disruptor on stun and you lose track of what bothered you.
Judging definitions used above, Alcohol is an entheogen too, because if you're slightly inebriated, you can really get somewhere.
I disagree with that definition. With effort, weed and alcohol can be used as entheogens, but if the word has any meaning then that is reserved for the drugs and herbs that give spiritual revelation to most people who enter the state with an open mind, and even to a lot of people who merely take it to get "fucked up".
Man I don't know who you are telling people they're thrown into a stupor when they smoke marijuana. What's wrong with all the opinionated people on this forum?
I have done complex, multiple order calculus, while severely 'stupid' on (good) marijuana (+3.5 grams) and been completely successful, and had an extremely enlightening time regarding how these processes work in my brain.
Yes, pot is an easy drug for beginners or those with low mental self control. So is alcohol. This does not prevent either from being utilized as an entheogen. Certainly the word itself is too spiritually rooted to have a definition with a 'cut off point' as sharp as you suggest. There is no possible way that you can accurately specify CHEMICAL REACTIONS as being GODLY or UNGODLY, doing so would be scientifically senseless and religiously prejudiced.
I can not understand the need to tell another person about their own relationship with god.
-------------------- Know your self. Know your substance. Know your source. The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,228
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: ExplosiveMango]
#5934080 - 08/05/06 10:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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AS A MODERATOR: ExplosiveMango, please stop your persecution of Vertigo. If you disagree then that is fine but do so in a respectful way. Remember that, like Vertigo, you are not the sole dispenser of Truth.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,228
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: ExplosiveMango]
#5934094 - 08/05/06 10:17 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
What's wrong with all the opinionated people on this forum?
You're just calling me opinionated because I disagree with you. If we agreed you'd give me highfive for a post well written.
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Man I don't know who you are telling people they're thrown into a stupor when they smoke marijuana.
Hear me out. The basic pharmacological effect of cannabis is sedation and a mental stir. It is acquired behavior to become activated if you smoke pot. The average response of newbie humans, most smokers and animals given THC is to become increasingly relaxed/sedated until they almost cease to function. You can learn to remain alert, but the basic effect is one of relaxation, leading to disruption of shortterm memory or, yes, stupor in high doses.
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There is no possible way that you can accurately specify CHEMICAL REACTIONS as being GODLY or UNGODLY, doing so would be scientifically senseless and religiously prejudiced. I can not understand the need to tell another person about their own relationship with god.
You misunderstand. I'm not saying pot "keeps God away" (devils herb indeed ) because nothing can, but on a mind that tends to lose focus and jump from one thought to the next whilst being sedated, spiritual revelations are less likely to happen than on a drug which is the opposite of a sedative and provides crystal clear thought.
On the whole, more users of mushrooms complain about God intruding on their lives than potusers do
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
#5934111 - 08/05/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said: AS A MODERATOR: ExplosiveMango, please stop your persecution of Vertigo. If you disagree then that is fine but do so in a respectful way. Remember that, like Vertigo, you are not the sole dispenser of Truth.
I do not believe there were any instances where I tried to share 'the truth' with vertigo.
You will notice my first reply had only instances where I informed him of how his opinion of people did not reflect my opinions; (I hate it when people...), (I happen to be helping a friend grow...), (To me this seems like...)
I made sure to convey that these were simply my feelings on the subject.
In my second reply I simply requested an explanation of Vertigo's unbelievable claim, that humans do not, in fact, write the dictionary.
My third reply was simply used to illustrate that others have the same feelings about him as he does of them. I think he deserved the humor just because of the nature of his statements.
As for my "persecution of Vertigo" this is a ridiculous accusation and I would appreciate it if you would refrain from this sort of disrespect.
I know you are upset that I do not agree with you, but I do not believe it is right for you to be disrespectful to any drug in its entirety, simply because it is not a good choice for you. I do not intend personal insult when I offer my views... but I will continue to do so on any occasion I feel undue disrespect is being put forward.
If you do not want users who are willing to defend freedom of drug use on this forum, clearly I am in the wrong place.
Likewise I believe members such as vertigo should have the innapropriacies of their conversation explained to them so that they may be able to learn to better express themselves. None of us need this disrespect.
-------------------- Know your self. Know your substance. Know your source. The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
#5934153 - 08/05/06 10:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
On the whole, more users of mushrooms complain about God intruding on their lives than potusers do
I found this to be the most illustrative portion of your post. I agree with the fact that unexpected encounters 'with god' happen on mushrooms more frequently than marijuana. To me this suggests mushrooms push the mind into a more cosmically exposed position simple by their nature. Marijuana does not seems to produce the same tremendous unfiltering effect that mushrooms do, however the numerous psychological and perceptual subtleties present are often mysterious, and occasionally profound.
In my opinion this translates into marijuana taking more 'faith' or 'effort' to communicate with god under the influence of. It does not in any way suggest this type of communicate is less valid than the 'easier to get close to god' sort.
-------------------- Know your self. Know your substance. Know your source. The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
#5934163 - 08/05/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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When pot is eaten it is a totaly different effect. Visuals and hyperness
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ngnyus
the madherbalist
Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 519
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Man this discussion has gotten mean spirited since I last looked at it! O.K. some think it's an etheogen, some don't, WTF does that matter, start another forum and everyone will be happen; My etheogens of choice from now on are bread and wine,"lit. becoming divine within" right, LOL.
-------------------- You reap what you sow
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MXNR
Did the Mushroom choose you?
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: ngnyus]
#5936877 - 08/06/06 12:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Cannabis is my primary entheogen. What right does anyone else have to say the plant is not capable of such things?
-------------------- Master: Everyday change your clothes and eat your food and you will become enlightened. Pupil: Master, I do not understand... Master: If you don't understand, eat your food and change your clothes.
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C-Dizzle
Stranger
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: MXNR]
#5939488 - 08/07/06 12:49 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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and thats why we should get that subforum
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thesyntaxera
Stranger
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: C-Dizzle]
#5940918 - 08/07/06 02:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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hi all- To be upfront, vert asked me to check this out because in general I agree with his point of view that cannabis is not a true entheogen. Anyone who has had more than a threshold experience on mushrooms can tell you this. Thats not to say pot can't produce trance-like states that are very similar to "tripping"...similar but not the same. What it really boils down to is a comparison of effects. While both are psychedelic they are not even close to the same thing. One key chemical reaction that limits the use of pot as an entheogens is it's effect on vassopressin. Vassopressin is the chemical that stimulates memory, and learning. Both alcohol, and marijuana work against the production of vassopressin producing the stupor like effects that are commonly noted.
The previous description of marijuana is mostly right on, except for the racing thoughts. That is an illusion created by the increase in heart rate as a response to lack of oxygen in the blood...it lasts momentarily, and once oxygen levels are restored you are left with the baked feeling. Increase in heart rate is in direct correlation with speed of thought...the faster the metabolism, the faster the thought...at least according to the leading theory of consciousness known as Orch-OR. Marijuana does not speed anything up, but slows it all down in a very interesting way... by quieting the mental chatter that we normally endure we can percieve new insights about the world around us, this does not equate it with the word entheogen however.
A chemical such as LSD is considered visionary because it does the exact opposite. It overloads the synapses with vassopressin, and disables our ability to filter incoming stimuli. In short, you are literally expanding your awareness to the peak of it's ability.
Here's where I say something really unpopular. Not only is weed not and entheogen, but neither is LSD. LSD is great for using your own brain to analyze situations/paradigms on a meta scale, but the whole time you are in control...a master of the universe.
Another drug that releases as much vassopressin as LSD is cocaine...not really a substance known for it's entheogenic properties, regardless of it's use by south american natives...not to mention their eagerness to bottle it into a soft drink.
The reason I personally chose to lump the previously mentioned chemicals in one catagory because they are only speeding things up essentially, or dumbing them down.
The effect of high dose mushrooms is something entirely different. It doesn't activate vassopressin, and it's nothing like serotonin or melatonin although all three(including dmt) have an almost identical chemical skeleton, allowing them to utilize the same receptor sites.
You can witness wholly 3 dimensional alternate comsmic realities complete with other lifeforms, and can at least feel as though you are communicating with the entire universe non-locally...the entire concept of "being in the presence of god" is entirely contingent upon some caveman finding mushrooms and eating them...only to run home and try and express the sensation to someone else.
Now if you take the last sentence and fast forward a few hundred thousand years you end up with organized religions so far from the mark that they don't even remember that is was some whacked out caveman that started it all.
That is why marijuana is not an entheogen.
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shamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: thesyntaxera]
#5941307 - 08/07/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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.. in your opinion.
i dont see any relevance here, there is obviously several definitions to what an entheogen is and yours is diffrent than mine and also vertigos obviously. following all definitions i have seen on the word, cannabis is an enthogen because it has been employed as one in several cultures troughout history.
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
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Vertigo6911
Entheobotanist
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
#5941707 - 08/07/06 06:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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ive used a spoon as a screwdriver, that doesent make it a screwdriver. nor does it make me a mechanic.
the last point i want to make here is that all of us smoker realy realy want to think of weed as an entheogen, because we derrive our identities from our percieved behaviours. the man keeps telling you your an idiot for smoking and you want to compensate by pretending its something more then what it is.
this is in complete contradiction with true entheogens, as they facilitate ego death, a neccecery part of the equasion that weed cannot deliver.
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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ngnyus
the madherbalist
Registered: 03/27/06
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
#5941763 - 08/07/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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O.K., isn't this the ETHNOBOTANICAL garden, not the etheogen garden? Those are two completely different terms meaning two completely different things, look it up. I also believe there are a few people who will not even consider what is being said if it disagrees with their preconcieved notions, could you be maybe a little open minded?, not every etheogen is a mind bending tyrptamine experience, though they do have a very important role, that is nowhere in the definition and just because someone wrote a book on it or is well educated does not make them the ultimate authority. In that case go tell the aztecs or mexican shaman that "the sun opener" is not an etheogen because the "buzz" isn't strong enough to qualify,....this is getting ridiculous. Believe me I am FED UP with every damn post being about marijuana, but what gives someone the right to say what plants provoke their communion with god, essentially that is trying to dictate to them who god is. Obviously there is enough traffic on the subject to start a new subforum, and I will rejoice when this happens, but please stop with the etheogenic naziism, neither your opinion or interpretation of definition is fact, obviously many other people, well educated and uneducated, disagree with you, and you are not going to convince them that marijuana is not etheogenic any more then they will convince you that it is.
-------------------- You reap what you sow
Edited by ngnyus (08/07/06 07:05 PM)
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
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Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5941798 - 08/07/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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The administrators are aware of these concerns in this forum, we are working on something we will announce in the near future which should solve the problems for both sides here.
Just ask for your patience for now.
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Vertigo6911
Entheobotanist
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Thor]
#5941812 - 08/07/06 07:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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awsome
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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chubbycharley
the chubbiest ofthe charleys
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5941920 - 08/07/06 07:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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well, now that the problem is/will be solved, i would just like to throw my opinion out there, see if any one understands what i think.
marijuana, LSD, mushrooms, DMT, MDMA, mescaline, caffeine, alcohol, N2O, salvia, any substance that is psychoactive, according to my interpretations of the Toltec people's legacy, provides a shift in the "assemblage point". some shift it in one direction, some in others and all in varying strengths/distances and directions.
the Toltecs teach us that when our assemblage points move, other worlds, other dimensions "open up" or rather, we focus our consciousness on other worlds through using the power that we have.
a powerful shift, like that from a heavy dose of salvia, will put you in another world fully and fairly quickly. the same with DMT. but the character of the two trips is so different. this is because of the direction of the shift.
DMT, mushrooms, LSD, tend to shift people into the realm of the "mold of man" or what many have come to call "god". really, it is just the state of being where you have attained the ability to witness the energy that is everything, all around us, inside of us. the same state can be attained through meditation which illustrates the point that these "entheogens" just provide a shift in our assemblage point, a boost of power that can be used in many ways.
cannabis provides a boost, as does alcohol, and every other drug. the earth, our mother, provides a boost. if we have enough power, we don't need a boost and can move our assemblage points on our own (meditation anyone?)
in conclusion i say entheogens just provide us with a boost of power, any drug that gives us a boost is an entheogen, what we see is real, there are no hallucinations
read Carlos Castaneda's books for his journey into the unknown, he explains the finer points of this stuff much better than i.
-------------------- if i'm just a stoned stoner, sayin some stoned ass shit, please correct me
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ngnyus
the madherbalist
Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 519
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: chubbycharley]
#5941970 - 08/07/06 07:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't trust Castaneda, read quite a few of his book's, thought the first one was interesting, the rest just seemed made up, and I guess several people hold this opinion, especially among the native american church.
-------------------- You reap what you sow
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Vertigo6911
Entheobotanist
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5941979 - 08/07/06 07:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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maybe, but he's making shit up as he goes along. castanada is the last person i would take seriously on this...
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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ngnyus
the madherbalist
Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 519
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5942039 - 08/07/06 08:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Cool, we actually agree on something, lol
-------------------- You reap what you sow
Edited by ngnyus (08/07/06 08:08 PM)
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Vertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: ngnyus]
#5942063 - 08/07/06 08:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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no wait, im pretty sure we agreed on something a wile back... i dont remember what it was... oh well... lol
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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chubbycharley
the chubbiest ofthe charleys
Registered: 04/02/04
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Loc: everywhere
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5942148 - 08/07/06 08:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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the NAC has nothing to do with the ancient Toltec way of knowledge. if you told a person who never used drugs what you saw on LSD, mushrooms, DMT, salvia etc... they would tell you you were making those things up, that they didn't happen to you.
personally, i have been able to draw parallels between the books and my own experiences, both drug and sober experiences.
Quote:
maybe, but he's making shit up as he goes along.
"making shit up as" we go along is the only thing we as conscious human beings could ever do. we are all artists making up this world, creating what we see.
btw, that is a piece of Toltec wisdom that is available to everyone who sees the big picture
Quote:
castanada is the last person i would take seriously on this...
and that's your problem, you are taking everything too seriously. nothing is meant to be taken seriously as nothing matters. when we are dead, what matters?
nothing of this world i can tell you.
-------------------- if i'm just a stoned stoner, sayin some stoned ass shit, please correct me
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Vertigo6911
Entheobotanist
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: chubbycharley]
#5942196 - 08/07/06 08:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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if its like that i might aswell get my info from the smurfs and expect to be taken seriously...
will i?
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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thesyntaxera
Stranger
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5943165 - 08/08/06 02:58 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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If we are seeking definition in stead of conjecture then I think you have to look back at what led to what.
No one ever smoked herb and had an ecstatic experience. Marijuana doesn't even come close to comparing so why compare it? It is it's own thing for sure, and deserves a rightful place somewhere, but not under the banner of entheogen.
I realize the subjective nature of the supplied definition, but I think I still have to disagree. The reason I think I have to disagree is because if in it's loose translation it means to be "inspired" than almost anything qualifies. In fact, I don't know about the rest of you but I very rarely need drugs to be "inspired", and if I did I would think something is wrong with me.
So is a landscape an entheogen? A good poem? A good movie? Your navel lint? A good shit? Where do you draw the line?
Definitions by definition should be definitive.
If it's "god within" where did the concept of god come from? Would anyone argue against the idea that it was the accidental discovery of mushrooms during a period of gathering and hunting that led people to consider that there might be something more out there?
If it's a case of chicken or egg, in this instance the egg certainly came first in the form of a psychedelic plant and the chicken later in the form of the god concept. Cannabis has not the capacity to do anything but make you stoned, sure everything seems enhanced, but that still does not equate it with a high dose mushroom trip which almost assuredly is the catalyst for the whole concept of the god in the phrase "god within".
Is this making sense or am I just chasing my tail?
I think what I am saying is that the word entheogen is too open ended to be considered as an all inclusive definition. Perhaps mushrooms, and other plant based visionary psychedelics should have a seperate catagory...something that indicates a more profound experience, which mushrooms without a doubt are, when compared to marijuana.
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888
Stranger
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5943172 - 08/08/06 03:02 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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book learning = nothing real experience = everything
and just so you unexperienced book readers know....
cannabis has extreme ranges and so does the intent of the one using it
Since you like books so much think of it this way... Words can be used in many ways... it is how you use them that makes something conveyed
Or lets say your body.. your mind. You don't even need a substance to enter a profound state. It's your intent.
Some of you are intent on learning whats in books. So thats all you'll ever learn and then you'll probably write a book; the chain of idiots continues. Thank you.
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thesyntaxera
Stranger
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: 888]
#5943372 - 08/08/06 07:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
888 said: book learning = nothing real experience = everything
and just so you unexperienced book readers know....
cannabis has extreme ranges and so does the intent of the one using it
Since you like books so much think of it this way... Words can be used in many ways... it is how you use them that makes something conveyed
Or lets say your body.. your mind. You don't even need a substance to enter a profound state. It's your intent.
Some of you are intent on learning whats in books. So thats all you'll ever learn and then you'll probably write a book; the chain of idiots continues. Thank you.
Book learning equals nothing...hmm...let me take a minute to digest this.........
Isn't book learning part of "real experience"? Is there any other form of personal experience other than first hand? And what does that have to do with drugs?
How can you possibly say book learning equals nothing when the very computer you are composing this halfbaked burn on is the result of that which you dislike, not to mention just about everything around you.
but I digress...
Allow me to rephrase...If a person wanted to have an experience that was by virtue of it's own nature the catalyst for all forms of "religious" thought dating back to animism then the only way to achieve that would be to eat 3 or more grams of mushrooms or some other dmt derivative.
If a person wanted to feel "inspired", and like groovy man...then by all means smoke weed or do acid, or any of the numerous other engineered chemcicals available, and while you doing that feel free to delude your mind into thinking that it is some how equal to the previously mentioned experience in terms of breadth, depth, and sheer cosmic sensation...an experience that is too difficult to describe in words honestly.
Or don't, and just recognize the difference.
As I said, perhaps there just needs to be a new word invented to seperate the two.
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Organic
Lloyd
Registered: 04/14/02
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: thesyntaxera]
#5943406 - 08/08/06 08:18 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Instead of making up terms for subjective experiences, how about we leave people to decide for themselves how they want to communicate with their God?
Have you considered that your 3+gram key to heaven could be just a delusion, and the real communion with God lies in your happiness/wellbeing in relation to yourself? Ah, the mushroom/indole headspace you speak of MUST be the golden path, huh? This smacks of elitism and seems like a sound basis for a Mushroom Fundamentalist Religion.
Face it, no chemical explanation/attempted rationalization/dumbing down will designate how each individual is affected by a drug. Everyone is different, no one's idea of God is the same, and no one's method of communion is the same. This paragraph doesn't consider the flocks of sheep.
Anything can be an entheogenic tool, and all experiences derived from such are valid to the person experiencing them, they do not require a guidebook, a psilocybin overdose, confirmation from an internet guru, etc, to be in the presence of God.
Don't you think the notion of categorizing and designating "God drugs" a little silly, elitist, and highly subjective other than if you were out to sell and profit from your message?
--------------------
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Organic
Lloyd
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: thesyntaxera]
#5943423 - 08/08/06 08:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
You can witness wholly 3 dimensional alternate comsmic realities complete with other lifeforms, and can at least feel as though you are communicating with the entire universe non-locally...
I think you need to eat hash if you think this cannot happen on marijuana. Granted, you may not 'believe' what you see as much as on any of the DMT-like molecules, but who is to say THAT is a hinderance? A more skeptical interpretation of your experience may be beneficial (and psychologically healthier) to some.
--------------------
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shamantra
hobbyethnobotanist
Registered: 05/18/04
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5943425 - 08/08/06 08:35 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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vertigo, so by your definition only substances than can enable ego death are entehogens? that is your definition?. because you are saying one thing then another thing here in this thread. to me it just sounds if you got the term entheogen and psycadelic mixed up.
buty i agree that castanada is full of shit tho
other than that what organic just said.
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
Edited by shamantra (08/08/06 03:15 PM)
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mr_minds_eye
Disposable Wage Whore
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5943458 - 08/08/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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How many of you usually are thinking about geting right with God when you are about to get laid. In spite of this sex has been used by many different cultures for religious reasons. Even in Christianity, the reason you only have it with your wife(a person who you are supposed to be connected to by God) is because it is supposed to be holy. With that said I'm supprised that most anyone here hasn't been jaded enough by dealing with the legions of fucking stoners out there who put the shit back like its Coca-Cola. I understand that it has religious use. I understand that it has a lot to do with intent. I also understand that there is a big fucking difference between cannabis and your classic psychedelics. On the other hand, nobody is complaining, like some one else said about poppy posts. Most of which by the way can be answered by the post the Wiccan Seeker has at the top of the forum. Nobody is complaining about posts about Tropane containing plants which also have been widely used religiously but are a far cry from fungus or mescaline. I also have yet to hear a complaint about posts on Sinuchi, Wild Dagga, Kratom, or a whole list of other plants which fail to produce comperable states of conciousness. Not that they aren't important, or that a person couldn't concievably work them into a religous ritual with positive results. The point is yes weed deserves it's own forum. That has been settled, they're working on it. I think its kind of funny that as soon as ego was mentioned it went downhill from there. You know anypost probably has a little bit of ego in it. It is basically you saying that I, so and so, deserve to be heard damn it! I mean ego is how we function in the world. I mean that as recognition, and acting out of self. That doesn't mean that you have to be a hard-assed prick about it though. Next we are going to have this whole forum turned into a religion. The side who says that weed is definatly an enthogen that ranks next to peyote or mushrooms will be one denomination. The side that says well its possible but not really will be on the other. Side one will employ death sqauds against side two and side two will favor the use of suicide bombers against side one. Before you know it both sides will be too narrow-minded to see that they basically agree.... I will say that none of these guys look like they are trying to get closer to God, but refer back to my sex analogy. I smoke herb every day if I have it. Sometimes when I am high different religious concepts just suddenly hit me and make more since than they ever have. Understanding vs. knowing. I don't smoke it like some people, to try to completely obltiterate my conciousness. I on the other hand don't use it purely religiously. I will say that I tend to put herb in a different catagory than I do Ayahuasca or Peyote. None of us will be able to really understand anything beyond ourselves and our personal experience. Remember the world that you experience is only in your head. Nobodys right if everybody's wrong...The way, that is The Way, is not The Way... etc etc
-------------------- Our quest for discovery fuels our creativity in all fields, not just science. If we reached the end of the line, the human spirit would shrivel and die. But I don't think we will ever stand still: we shall increase in complexity, if not in depth, and shall always be the center on an expanding horizon of possibilities. -Stephen Hawking
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shamantra
hobbyethnobotanist
Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 1,177
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: thesyntaxera]
#5943470 - 08/08/06 09:15 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
thesyntaxera said: No one ever smoked herb and had an ecstatic experience.
based on my own experiences i know this not to be true. i dont bother to comment on your thesis about creation of god because i feel its not relevant to the subject. but you base your opinion on that cannabis are unable to make you anything other than stoned and this is where we disagree.
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
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ngnyus
the madherbalist
Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 519
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
#5945220 - 08/08/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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O.K., personally the FIRST time I ever tried pot it was the first drug I ever did, even before I drank, and to me it was quite comparable to a psychedelic experience, I didn't know what was going on, etc., so if you want to say that a hunter gatherer could not have had a mind opening experience on marijuana it's hard for me to believe. Now I smoke pot at most once a month, so I'm not just a stoner coming to it's defense, but I have a theory that the people who do not consider it an etheogen had at the very least a relatively long stand of regular pot smoking, in which it becomes what it is to most stoners, just a high, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I dare someone who has never smoked it (which I doubt to find on this sight, lol) to smoke a half a gram of well grown sensi for the first time and not find it comparable to a low dose mushroom trip, come on guys, try to think back to your first time, am I wrong?
-------------------- You reap what you sow
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MXNR
Did the Mushroom choose you?
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: ngnyus]
#5945612 - 08/08/06 08:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
ngnyus said: O.K., personally the FIRST time I ever tried pot it was the first drug I ever did, even before I drank, and to me it was quite comparable to a psychedelic experience, I didn't know what was going on, etc., so if you want to say that a hunter gatherer could not have had a mind opening experience on marijuana it's hard for me to believe. Now I smoke pot at most once a month, so I'm not just a stoner coming to it's defense, but I have a theory that the people who do not consider it an etheogen had at the very least a relatively long stand of regular pot smoking, in which it becomes what it is to most stoners, just a high, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I dare someone who has never smoked it (which I doubt to find on this sight, lol) to smoke a half a gram of well grown sensi for the first time and not find it comparable to a low dose mushroom trip, come on guys, try to think back to your first time, am I wrong?
Hear, hear
Most of them have become jaded by that wicked weed
-------------------- Master: Everyday change your clothes and eat your food and you will become enlightened. Pupil: Master, I do not understand... Master: If you don't understand, eat your food and change your clothes.
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thesyntaxera
Stranger
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5946218 - 08/08/06 11:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Instead of making up terms for subjective experiences, how about we leave people to decide for themselves how they want to communicate with their God?
Because their god doesn't exist in anyway that they could possibly conceive of in the first place...unless your talking about personal anthropomorphized gods that are akin to worshipping jesus.
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Have you considered that your 3+gram key to heaven could be just a delusion, and the real communion with God lies in your happiness/wellbeing in relation to yourself? Ah, the mushroom/indole headspace you speak of MUST be the golden path, huh? This smacks of elitism and seems like a sound basis for a Mushroom Fundamentalist Religion.
Thats pretty funny. Maybe you need to clean the weed fog off of your glasses and re-read what we have been saying. A Mushroom fundamentalist religion? Where are you getting this? All we are saying is that the idea of having a god in the first place, of having any concept of anything outside of animal instinct was probably catalyzed by psychedelic compounds and that this led to the development of religion because people lacked the scientific understanding to deal with a peak experience.
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Face it, no chemical explanation/attempted rationalization/dumbing down will designate how each individual is affected by a drug. Everyone is different, no one's idea of God is the same, and no one's method of communion is the same. This paragraph doesn't consider the flocks of sheep.
We are talking about chemicals that can be measured right. So even if each person is a pretty little snowflake we can still measure out dosages that produce similar effects across the board for each individual...it's human biology, and regardless of your pseudophilosophical leanings, human have an inherent universality about them overall, with minor exceptions...thats why things like medical practices are functional and useful.
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Anything can be an entheogenic tool, and all experiences derived from such are valid to the person experiencing them, they do not require a guidebook, a psilocybin overdose, confirmation from an internet guru, etc, to be in the presence of God.
Don't you think the notion of categorizing and designating "God drugs" a little silly, elitist, and highly subjective other than if you were out to sell and profit from your message?
See this is where I know we aren't even talking about the same thing...or at least aren't on the same page mentally. You are busy ascribing cult like behavior to the bits of text that are written in opposition to a pov that says "everything is subjective" when in reality that is complete bullshite defensive posturing designed to distract from the real point of the opposition.
If everything is subjective then we might as well throw science out the window all together.
Question: Are we talking about god or drugs here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_experience Because all we are saying is that there is a difference between A level on experience, and a level 5 experience as defined by MAPS.
Levels 1-3 are more or less psychedelic, and levels 4-5 are "entheogenic" in that the contents of those experiences is what led tot he creation of the god concept in the first place. Like I said...the "god" in the phrase "god within". It seems you have taken this to mean that I am implying that the mushroom at that dose is somehow transendant. It may be, but what I Was getting at is that the whole idea of god and it's related memes and symbolism found in human culture have been derived from these peak experiences.
This isn't a guess either, do a little reading through history and you will see this to be fairly accurate.
Edited by thesyntaxera (08/08/06 11:56 PM)
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thesyntaxera
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: thesyntaxera]
#5946507 - 08/09/06 03:26 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I feel I should add a disclaimer. Vertigo and I are not out to diminish any of the "truths" you have gleaned from your varied experiences. We are having a discussion about the proper meaning of the word entheogen however, and if we are going to talk origins then we had better look back a long way.
It's pretty well established that the origin of "god concepts" heralds back to the first time a humanoid accidently ingested a psychedelic plant. A comparison of the contents of a peak experience and the descriptions of the "other worlds"(heaven...etc) of the various religions and their individual interpretations only reveal more striking similarities.
I am bringing this up because this is the foundation for the greek definition that you all are reciting like doctrine. Without the peak experience there most likely wouldn't have been a human concept for "god", and arguably we might have ended up wandering about without any intellectual insight for a long time, at least longer than we did.
This is why we are staunch in the seperation of the threshold psychedelic experiences from the mind blowing alternate universe experiences.
We are NOT trying to prove intellectual superiority. What we are doing is sharing our opinion with others who have their own opinions, and then explaining why we have those opinions.
Sorry if you don't agree.
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shamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: thesyntaxera]
#5946529 - 08/09/06 03:57 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's pretty well established that the origin of "god concepts" heralds back to the first time a humanoid accidently ingested a psychedelic plant
well establised where? you present thesis and theories as facts and there is nothing i have read more about than history, you also fail to understand that following this theory on the origin of various gods cannabis could just as well be one of these psycadlic plants.
lets requote the definition vertigo quoted for entheogen
Quote:
nov. verb.— Plant sacraments or shamanic inebriants evoking religious ecstasy or vision; commonly used in the archaic world in divination for shamanic healing, and in Holy Communion, for example during the Initiation to the Eleusinian Mysteries or the Vedic Soma sacrifice . Literally: becoming divine within. Hence: Age of Entheogens nov. verb., Entheogenic nov. verb.
And again and for the last time, not only was marijuana the vedic soma sacrifice from 7th-11th century but also in India it has been a sacred inebriant associated with Shiva, this is all well documented. Now this qualifies as entheogen just as much as Ska Pastora qualifies as entheogen for its use by the mazatecs.
Its not about peak experiences and ego death but as the definition above says; evoking religious ecstasy or vision and Holy communion,, lets define communion;
Communion A ceremonial group ingestion of a sacrament; originally an entheogenic plant or potion; in the Catholic Church involving placebo sacrament of the Eucharist. Hence: Communal, Communally, Commune, Communicant.
1857 Ludlow The Hasheesh Eater 60. I dwelt in an inner communion with heaven—a communion where every language is understood, rather than where all speak the same language...
(hasheesh is cannabis btw and it doesnt sound like he is just stoned, like i allready said eating cannabis can be a socalled peak experience, a psycadelic experience with visuals and altered mind state)
Source: The Age of Entheogens & The Angel's Dictionary by Jonathan Ott
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
Edited by shamantra (08/09/06 05:17 AM)
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Organic
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: thesyntaxera]
#5946569 - 08/09/06 04:49 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thats pretty funny. Maybe you need to clean the weed fog off of your glasses and re-read what we have been saying. A Mushroom fundamentalist religion? Where are you getting this? All we are saying is that the idea of having a god in the first place, of having any concept of anything outside of animal instinct was probably catalyzed by psychedelic compounds and that this led to the development of religion because people lacked the scientific understanding to deal with a peak experience.
No pot in a while, thanks for the ad hominem though, haven't had one of those since I debated your apprentice. You all been smoking a lot to make you think all it is, is a buzz, and projecting, like someone else asked?
I didn't say you were starting a Mushroom fundamentalist religion, just that you had a good basis for one. I thought the thread immediately went to the subject of pot as an entheogen, not mushrooms inspiring cavemen. Your silly tangent does not equal or dumb down the content of the entire thread, sorry. By your logic, a lightning bolt could have been the reason for 'discovery' of God, since no one could understand such complex things in their little cavemen minds The point lies in that statement, lets see you dig it out, since your "weed glasses" are crystal clear.
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We are talking about chemicals that can be measured right. So even if each person is a pretty little snowflake we can still measure out dosages that produce similar effects across the board for each individual...it's human biology, and regardless of your pseudophilosophical leanings, human have an inherent universality about them overall, with minor exceptions...thats why things like medical practices are functional and useful.
Drrr, of course chemicals can be measured and they will have similar physiological effects, way to mis-read again. I disagreed with your "minor exceptions" theory, because you are nullifying entire cultures, such as Rastafarians.
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See this is where I know we aren't even talking about the same thing...or at least aren't on the same page mentally. You are busy ascribing cult like behavior to the bits of text that are written in opposition to a pov that says "everything is subjective" when in reality that is complete bullshite defensive posturing designed to distract from the real point of the opposition.
If everything is subjective then we might as well throw science out the window all together.
Drug experiences (psychologically for you clarification) are subjective, "God" experiences are subjective, you are pulling the rest of this out of nowhere. Where did I say everything in this world is subjective? If I did, I'm sorry, but I'm quite sure I did not. Red is red, blue is blue, weed affects us psychologically differently than you. Physically observable fact and mental interpretation of drug experiences differ, no?
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Question: Are we talking about god or drugs here?
I'll bring you back to reply #1 of this thread, where it all started.
WE are talking about being inspired to believe, communicate, feel in the presence of God as a result of marijuana use. YOU may be talking about something different, but I'm just trying to stay on the original topic.
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Because all we are saying is that there is a difference between A level on experience, and a level 5 experience as defined by MAPS.
I agree absolutely...who wouldn't argue a threshold dose and huge dose are different? The argument is that marijuana can just as easily get you there as mushrooms, intentions, tolerance, amount consumed considered.
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This isn't a guess either, do a little reading through history and you will see this to be fairly accurate.
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It's pretty well established that the origin of "god concepts" heralds back to the first time a humanoid accidently ingested a psychedelic plant.
...in your niche of the drug subculture. I think most educated, well-respected, non-drug culture historians would scoff at this idea. Why would you tell them they are wrong, and by whose historically evidenced account? I must have missed the well-substantiated, mainstream chapter on peak DRUG experiences leading to god-concepts in my entire university education. I've read plenty of McKenna and related authors, but I would have to say there are some gaping holes in his theories, which I'm sure have been explained elsewhere and don't need to be brought up in THIS thread. The theories you're presenting as fact were not the original topic, and frankly, they are widely considered crackpot by the rest of the world's historians.
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Without the peak experience there most likely wouldn't have been a human concept for "god", and arguably we might have ended up wandering about without any intellectual insight for a long time, at least longer than we did.
Ok...once again, nice theory, but it has little to do with the debate of this thread. Pot as an entheogen, culturally, presently, and historically, not WHAT/HOW revealed "God-concepts" to the first caveman, because he does NOT represent everyone of today, or even two thousand years ago.
People here have accounted to using pot as an entheogen, entire cultures have, we have historical records of this, so right now your argument amounts to changing the subject and sticking your fingers in your ears, going "lalalalala" to all contradictory evidence/arguments.
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Edited by Organic (08/09/06 06:27 AM)
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Organic
Lloyd
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5946621 - 08/09/06 05:22 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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To further clarify, on the original topic...
Marijuana can facilitate ego-loss and be wholly god-inspiring, as evidenced by usage in many cultures throughout history. Present wide-spread use should not be the only consideration as almost every illicit drug is abused in the West today. If this were applied, mushrooms would be nothing more than a party drug, because most users treat it as such, not as an entheogen. Present popular trends do not dictate past or future experiences.
Individual marijuana strains and psychological reactions based on expectations and intentions will govern how it affects people individually in a mental sense. There is no single textbook psychological reaction to smoking marijuana, only broadly-defined, similar physiological effects. Nor can similar chemical processes throughout the entire spectrum of users eliminate the ability to perceive something "more' than being stoned. There is no start/stop point for receiving or being in the presence of God, I feel it can happen anytime, sober, or intoxicated, based on your intentions.
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Organic
Lloyd
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
#5946632 - 08/09/06 05:29 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Its not about peak experiences and ego death but as the definition above says; evoking religious ecstasy or vision and Holy communion
I think this is key to re-iterate, though like you said, cannabis can bring on a "peak experience" and ego-death as well.
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thesyntaxera
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
#5946738 - 08/09/06 07:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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well establised where? you present thesis and theories as facts and there is nothing i have read more about than history, you also fail to understand that following this theory on the origin of various gods cannabis could just as well be one of these psycadlic plants.
Thesis and theories....according to science that is all there is. Pot as an entheogen is being presented as fact. Whats the difference?
As far as sources...Vertigo has a link at the bottom of his posts about this...Astrotheology and Shamanism has about 1000 sources that all say nearly the same thing...I could rattle them off or you can follow the link if you wish...either way the information is there if you go looking for it.
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And again and for the last time, not only was marijuana the vedic soma sacrifice from 7th-11th century but also in India it has been a sacred inebriant associated with Shiva, this is all well documented. Now this qualifies as entheogen just as much as Ska Pastora qualifies as entheogen for its use by the mazatecs.
Actually if you read history a little closer no one actually knows what the ingredients of soma were. Most likely it was a combination of available psychedelics. Cannabis is considered to be part of the mixture by some, but most won't deny the significant role mushrooms played in it's effectiveness.
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Its not about peak experiences and ego death but as the definition above says; evoking religious ecstasy or vision and Holy communion,, lets define communion;
ok stop there for a minute. What do you think peak exp/ego death is? Have you ever experienced it...? Religious ecstasy and vision is the ego death, it's what you experience at the peak of a high dose mushroom excursion. It's unavoidable and lasts for about an hour or two depending on how big of a hero you want to be when eating them. Holy communion...what do you think this is? Perhaps the act of dissolving your consciousness(ego) into the void of all that is and allowing your guard to come down long enough to feel the presence of what McKenna refered to as "the Other"...what the Greeks called Logos.
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Vertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5946739 - 08/09/06 07:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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vertigo, so by your definition only substances than can enable ego death are entehogens? that is your definition?. because you are saying one thing then another thing here in this thread. to me it just sounds if you got the term entheogen and psycadelic mixed up.
not exactly, im saying ego death comes before the experiance im considering to be 'entheogenic'. so its not the definition, but a requirement.
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but I dare someone who has never smoked it (which I doubt to find on this sight, lol) to smoke a half a gram of well grown sensi for the first time and not find it comparable to a low dose mushroom trip, come on guys, try to think back to your first time, am I wrong?
yes. my first time was skunk, and it was quite an experiance, but not realy comperable with shrooms in its nature, only in degree of perception changes.
also low doses of shrooms do not yield entheogenic experiances. my position is that the word entheogenic is ment to apply to specificly those experiances that (often but not always) come after 5 to 7 dry grams of P. cubensis, taken in silent darkness.
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By your logic, a lightning bolt could have been the reason for 'discovery' of God, since no one could understand such complex things in their little cavemen minds
lightning bolts can be freely expressed with words based on other things that exist in this reality. the abstract wierdness of a psychedelic experiance cannot. and if you go look for something as fundamentaly wierd as 'god', psychedelics realy are the only place worth looking.
and when you do you can find exctly that kind of situation that conforms to the basic concept of divinity and prettymuch all manners in wich it is described troughout history.
[qupte]I agree absolutely...who wouldn't argue a threshold dose and huge dose are different? The argument is that marijuana can just as easily get you there as mushrooms, intentions, tolerance, amount consumed considered.
just where is it you think you are going? are u one of those kids who takes 2 grams of cubensis and thinks he knows what shrooms are all about?
gtf outta here, weed and shrooms are in no way interchangable. the idea is just byond stupid, its an induldgence of ignorance.
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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shamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5946752 - 08/09/06 08:01 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Actually if you read history a little closer no one actually knows what the ingredients of soma were. Most likely it was a combination of available psychedelics. Cannabis is considered to be part of the mixture by some, but most won't deny the significant role mushrooms played in it's effectiveness.
your thinking about the soma that predates the practice of soma I refferr to that noone knows what exactly is, there are historical evidence for my claims.
I suggeest reading the cannabis chapter in the book called Plant of the Gods by Hofmann, Schultes and Rätsch.
Also another intresting fact just to throw it in, the Tepecano indians of northwest mexico use cannabis whenever peyote is not availble in shamanic rituals
And I could go on, In early china (2000BC) it was known that ma-fen (hemp fruit) had hallucigenic properties, its written in the Pen Tsao Ching if taken in long term it makes one communicate with the spirits and lightens one`s body.
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
Edited by shamantra (08/09/06 08:45 AM)
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Vertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5946775 - 08/09/06 08:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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dude, the most well informed, most capable people cannot agree on what soma was. forgive me if im not swayed by your little theory there...
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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shamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5946796 - 08/09/06 08:36 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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you are also talking about the original soma. im not talking about that one. im talking about newer practice of soma and its not my little theory as you call it
read; Journal of Psychedelic Drugs Vol 9 (No. 3) Jul-Sep 1977; 227-233 by Michael R. Aldrich
(abstract;The sacred beverage described in the Veda texts was probably made from a hallucinogenic mushroom, but it was replaced by hallucinogenic hemp in the 7th-11th centuries)
or like allready mentioned the book plants of the gods
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
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shamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
#5946845 - 08/09/06 09:25 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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here is a another quote from plants of the gods,
"The value of Cannabis in folk medicine has clearly been closely tied with its euphoric and psycoactive properties; knowledge of these effects may be as old as its use as a source of fiber. Primitive man, trying all sorts of plain materials as food, must have known the ecstatic euphoria-inducing effects of Hemp, an intoxicant introducing him to an otherworldy plane leading to religious beliefs. Thus the plant early was viewed as a special gift of the gods, a sacred medium for communion with the spirit world"
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
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Organic
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5946902 - 08/09/06 09:57 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
just where is it you think you are going? are u one of those kids who takes 2 grams of cubensis and thinks he knows what shrooms are all about?
gtf outta here, weed and shrooms are in no way interchangable. the idea is just byond stupid, its an induldgence of ignorance.
The ego-less one speaks again
How does it feel to have your fingers jabbed in your ears?
My psychedelic experience is not on trial here, your terrible argument is. I've had plenty of high dosage experiences, education, and culturing to serve the both of us. Personal attacks, squirming, and futile attempts to redefining entheogen seem to be your only options now.
They are absolutely interchangeable since they served the same function to different cultures where one or the other is not available. A barrier of intensity, in the most general dumbed-down sense (which I refute, once again, eat some hash) does not eliminate a substance's cultural, historical significance to ENTIRE CULTURES that existed in both the past and RIGHT NOW.
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Edited by Organic (08/09/06 10:32 AM)
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Corporal Kielbasa
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
#5946913 - 08/09/06 10:02 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
shamantra said: here is a another quote from plants of the gods,
"The value of Cannabis in folk medicine has clearly been closely tied with its euphoric and psycoactive properties; knowledge of these effects may be as old as its use as a source of fiber. Primitive man, trying all sorts of plain materials as food, must have known the ecstatic euphoria-inducing effects of Hemp, an intoxicant introducing him to an otherworldy plane leading to religious beliefs. Thus the plant early was viewed as a special gift of the gods, a sacred medium for communion with the spirit world"
Thats all speculation though, not factual. But i do agree with it.
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Vertigo6911
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must have's aint gonna cut it dude.
just because some tribe somewhere worshipped something doesent make it an entheogen, we have been trough this already.
in fact, im done with this discussion.
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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Jim
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5947160 - 08/09/06 11:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I believe Ythan was working on a project entitled 'the Greenery'
-------------------- Use the Fucking Reply To Feature You Lazy Pieces of Shit! afoaf said: Jim, if you were in my city, I would let you fuck my wife.
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Organic
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5947163 - 08/09/06 11:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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, 'dude'
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Corporal Kielbasa
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5947213 - 08/09/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Corporal Kielbasa
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5947224 - 08/09/06 12:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I see where you are coming from, but maybe you are just hard headed and taking for granted what nature has given us?
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shamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5947252 - 08/09/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vertigo6911 said: must have's aint gonna cut it dude.
just because some tribe somewhere worshipped something doesent make it an entheogen, we have been trough this already.
in fact, im done with this discussion.
you know, this is the exact same argument as your friend came with only he said it could not be marijuana because marijuana could not provide ecstatic experiences. there was talk about cavemen eating mushrooms..
ill quote:
"I feel I should add a disclaimer. Vertigo and I are not out to diminish any of the "truths" you have gleaned from your varied experiences. We are having a discussion about the proper meaning of the word entheogen however, and if we are going to talk origins then we had better look back a long way. "
"It's pretty well established that the origin of "god concepts" heralds back to the first time a humanoid accidently ingested a psychedelic plant. A comparison of the contents of a peak experience and the descriptions of the "other worlds"(heaven...etc) of the various religions and their individual interpretations only reveal more striking similarities."
"All we are saying is that the idea of having a god in the first place, of having any concept of anything outside of animal instinct was probably catalyzed by psychedelic compounds and that this led to the development of religion because people lacked the scientific understanding to deal with a peak experience."
"Allow me to rephrase...If a person wanted to have an experience that was by virtue of it's own nature the catalyst for all forms of "religious" thought dating back to animism then the only way to achieve that would be to eat 3 or more grams of mushrooms or some other dmt derivative."
he also strangly enough said "One key chemical reaction that limits the use of pot as an entheogens is it's effect on vassopressin."
you said "cannabis does not facilitate holy communion, therefore it is not an entheogen." ""holy communion" doesent mean to get closer to, it means to be in the presence of. " (you should look that up)
and " im saying ego death comes before the experiance im considering to be 'entheogenic'. so its not the definition, but a requirement." after saying this: "psychedelic is not the same as entheogen. not all entheogens are psychedelics, not all psychedelics are entheogens. "
a quick summary perhaps a little out of context next time you get someone to back you up at least you two should agree but your friend made a better case but he talked cavemen found mushrooms and created the concept god (I assumed it was related to what are true entheogens and not off topic rambling). Schultes said the same thing about marijuana as i just quoted and you come with this reply and said your done with this debate. .. oh well. but dont get upset, its just a debate. i like to debate on subjects like this and there is no debate without someone with diffrent opinions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogen
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
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Vertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5948039 - 08/09/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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well i didnt ask him to back me up but more to help me express some tricky things.
as for peoples worshipping MJ, whats to say they had the same idea of divinity we are discussing here?
from the sounds of it the 'spirit world' is percieved as an external thing, and that contradicts the specific sense of the 'god within' that is a part of the experiance we have in mind.
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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Corporal Kielbasa
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 17,235
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5948725 - 08/09/06 08:48 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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But whats to say these forms of divinity are actualy any different from each other, other then each persons preception on what divinity is?
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Vertigo6911
Entheobotanist
Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 1,834
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5949631 - 08/10/06 02:10 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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it doesent matter, the experiance is different, and that is what the word describes.
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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thesyntaxera
Stranger
Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 7
Last seen: 17 years, 15 days
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5949713 - 08/10/06 04:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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http://www.egodeath.com/
this page highlights a lot of what Vert and I are getting at...as much as I would love to engage in a circular argument about the nature of a definition, I would rather have you all take a look at this instead.
enjoy!
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shamantra
hobbyethnobotanist
Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 1,177
Loc: ¯\(º_o)/¯
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: thesyntaxera]
#5949755 - 08/10/06 05:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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ive read some on that page now and i dont see how anything on that page disregard cannabis as an entheogen , sorry but i dont understand at all what you are getting at. there are actually mentioning as cannabis as a christian entheogen several places , clearly this page thinks cannabis is an entheogen as I see it. . please tell me how that page disregard cannabis as an entheogen`?
quote from egodeath.com
"Psilocybin is a powerful drug. Cannabis is a much less powerful substance and yet it is capable of producing all of the experiences spoken of by the mystics from the ancient world. Merely being stoned will not in and of itself produce these experiences this is why I consistently say that they are possible only with the CORRECT use of cannabis"
"Cannabis can be, by the definition I've formulated, a true entheogen. Strong doses of cannabis, such as the now-illegal space-cakes in Amsterdam, can cause panic attacks -- a hallmark of the ultimate religious experience, which is insight into the self-control delusion, along with perceiving the ego as self-controller to be cybernetically void in its efforts to control or truly create its future actions. A panic attack can indicate the highest religious experience, because it can indicate a revelation of self-control cancellation"
"Eating hashish may be frankly entheogenic, and THC augments the classic entheogens. Classic entheogens include LSD and psychoactive mushrooms. Per McKenna, a strong candidate for the most classic entheogen is the psilocybin mushroom, though for reasons of shape-shifting fascination, Amanita also has a claim to being classic. The most popular medicines in Western history were cannabis and opium, so they have a certain claim to some sort of classic status." ... other than that I found alot of information that was highly questionable in my opinion on that page but nothing related to this debate so im not going into that now.
Two highly recommendet books with great info about entheogens are; Pharmacotheon : Entheogenic drugs, their plant sources and history by Jonathan Ott
The Age of Entheogens & the Angel's Dictionary by Jonathan Ott
buy them and read them cover to cover
also: maps.org csp.org
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
Edited by shamantra (08/10/06 08:45 AM)
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ngnyus
the madherbalist
Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 519
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
#5954171 - 08/11/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Looks like that about settle's it, huh?
-------------------- You reap what you sow
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shamantra
hobbyethnobotanist
Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 1,177
Loc: ¯\(º_o)/¯
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: ngnyus]
#5955376 - 08/11/06 11:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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pretty much i noticed there was no response
so to conclude this debate
cannabis is a true entehogen.
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
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