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Offlinethesyntaxera
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Registered: 08/07/06
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: thesyntaxera]
    #5946507 - 08/09/06 03:26 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I feel I should add a disclaimer. Vertigo and I are not out to diminish any of the "truths" you have gleaned from your varied experiences. We are having a discussion about the proper meaning of the word entheogen however, and if we are going to talk origins then we had better look back a long way.

It's pretty well established that the origin of "god concepts" heralds back to the first time a humanoid accidently ingested a psychedelic plant. A comparison of the contents of a peak experience and the descriptions of the "other worlds"(heaven...etc) of the various religions and their individual interpretations only reveal more striking similarities.

I am bringing this up because this is the foundation for the greek definition that you all are reciting like doctrine. Without the peak experience there most likely wouldn't have been a human concept for "god", and arguably we might have ended up wandering about without any intellectual insight for a long time, at least longer than we did.

This is why we are staunch in the seperation of the threshold psychedelic experiences from the mind blowing alternate universe experiences.

We are NOT trying to prove intellectual superiority. What we are doing is sharing our opinion with others who have their own opinions, and then explaining why we have those opinions.

Sorry if you don't agree.


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Invisibleshamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: thesyntaxera]
    #5946529 - 08/09/06 03:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It's pretty well established that the origin of "god concepts" heralds back to the first time a humanoid accidently ingested a psychedelic plant




well establised where? you present thesis and theories as facts and there is nothing i have read more about than history, you also fail to understand that following this theory on the origin of various gods cannabis could just as well be one of these psycadlic plants.

lets requote the definition vertigo quoted for entheogen

Quote:

nov. verb.— Plant sacraments or shamanic inebriants evoking religious ecstasy or vision; commonly used in the archaic world in divination for shamanic healing, and in Holy Communion, for example during the Initiation to the Eleusinian Mysteries or the Vedic Soma sacrifice . Literally: becoming divine within. Hence: Age of Entheogens nov. verb., Entheogenic nov. verb.




And again and for the last time, not only was marijuana the vedic soma sacrifice from 7th-11th century but also in India it has been a sacred inebriant associated with Shiva, this is all well documented. Now this qualifies as entheogen just as much as Ska Pastora qualifies as entheogen for its use by the mazatecs.

Its not about peak experiences and ego death but as the definition above says; evoking religious ecstasy or vision and Holy communion,, lets define communion;


Communion
A ceremonial group ingestion of a sacrament; originally an entheogenic plant or potion; in the Catholic Church involving placebo sacrament of the Eucharist. Hence: Communal, Communally, Commune, Communicant.


1857 Ludlow The Hasheesh Eater 60. I dwelt in an inner communion with heaven—a communion where every language is understood, rather than where all speak the same language...

(hasheesh is cannabis btw and it doesnt sound like he is just stoned, like i allready said eating cannabis can be a socalled peak experience, a psycadelic experience with visuals and altered mind state)

Source:
The Age of Entheogens & The Angel's Dictionary
by Jonathan Ott



--------------------
note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best :smile:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0


Edited by shamantra (08/09/06 05:17 AM)


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OfflineOrganic
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: thesyntaxera]
    #5946569 - 08/09/06 04:49 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Thats pretty funny. Maybe you need to clean the weed fog off of your glasses and re-read what we have been saying. A Mushroom fundamentalist religion? Where are you getting this? All we are saying is that the idea of having a god in the first place, of having any concept of anything outside of animal instinct was probably catalyzed by psychedelic compounds and that this led to the development of religion because people lacked the scientific understanding to deal with a peak experience.




No pot in a while, thanks for the ad hominem though, haven't had one of those since I debated your apprentice. You all been smoking a lot to make you think all it is, is a buzz, and projecting, like someone else asked?

I didn't say you were starting a Mushroom fundamentalist religion, just that you had a good basis for one. I thought the thread immediately went to the subject of pot as an entheogen, not mushrooms inspiring cavemen. Your silly tangent does not equal or dumb down the content of the entire thread, sorry. By your logic, a lightning bolt could have been the reason for 'discovery' of God, since no one could understand such complex things in their little cavemen minds :smirk: The point lies in that statement, lets see you dig it out, since your "weed glasses" are crystal clear.

Quote:

We are talking about chemicals that can be measured right. So even if each person is a pretty little snowflake we can still measure out dosages that produce similar effects across the board for each individual...it's human biology, and regardless of your pseudophilosophical leanings, human have an inherent universality about them overall, with minor exceptions...thats why things like medical practices are functional and useful.




Drrr, of course chemicals can be measured and they will have similar physiological effects, way to mis-read again. I disagreed with your "minor exceptions" theory, because you are nullifying entire cultures, such as Rastafarians.

Quote:

See this is where I know we aren't even talking about the same thing...or at least aren't on the same page mentally. You are busy ascribing cult like behavior to the bits of text that are written in opposition to a pov that says "everything is subjective" when in reality that is complete bullshite defensive posturing designed to distract from the real point of the opposition.

If everything is subjective then we might as well throw science out the window all together.




Drug experiences (psychologically for you clarification) are subjective, "God" experiences are subjective, you are pulling the rest of this out of nowhere. Where did I say everything in this world is subjective? If I did, I'm sorry, but I'm quite sure I did not. Red is red, blue is blue, weed affects us psychologically differently than you. Physically observable fact and mental interpretation of drug experiences differ, no?

Quote:

Question: Are we talking about god or drugs here?




I'll bring you back to reply #1 of this thread, where it all started.

WE are talking about being inspired to believe, communicate, feel in the presence of God as a result of marijuana use. YOU may be talking about something different, but I'm just trying to stay on the original topic.

Quote:

Because all we are saying is that there is a difference between A level on experience, and a level 5 experience as defined by MAPS.




I agree absolutely...who wouldn't argue a threshold dose and huge dose are different? The argument is that marijuana can just as easily get you there as mushrooms, intentions, tolerance, amount consumed considered.

Quote:

This isn't a guess either, do a little reading through history and you will see this to be fairly accurate.



Quote:

It's pretty well established that the origin of "god concepts" heralds back to the first time a humanoid accidently ingested a psychedelic plant.




...in your niche of the drug subculture. I think most educated, well-respected, non-drug culture historians would scoff at this idea. Why would you tell them they are wrong, and by whose historically evidenced account? I must have missed the well-substantiated, mainstream chapter on peak DRUG experiences leading to god-concepts in my entire university education. I've read plenty of McKenna and related authors, but I would have to say there are some gaping holes in his theories, which I'm sure have been explained elsewhere and don't need to be brought up in THIS thread.  The theories you're presenting as fact were not the original topic, and frankly, they are widely considered crackpot by the rest of the world's historians.

Quote:

Without the peak experience there most likely wouldn't have been a human concept for "god", and arguably we might have ended up wandering about without any intellectual insight for a long time, at least longer than we did.




Ok...once again, nice theory, but it has little to do with the debate of this thread. Pot as an entheogen, culturally, presently, and historically, not WHAT/HOW revealed "God-concepts" to the first caveman, because he does NOT represent everyone of today, or even two thousand years ago.

People here have accounted to using pot as an entheogen, entire cultures have, we have historical records of this, so right now your argument amounts to changing the subject and sticking your fingers in your ears, going "lalalalala" to all contradictory evidence/arguments.


--------------------


Edited by Organic (08/09/06 06:27 AM)


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OfflineOrganic
Lloyd

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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
    #5946621 - 08/09/06 05:22 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

To further clarify, on the original topic...

Marijuana can facilitate ego-loss and be wholly god-inspiring, as evidenced by usage in many cultures throughout history. Present wide-spread use should not be the only consideration as almost every illicit drug is abused in the West today. If this were applied, mushrooms would be nothing more than a party drug, because most users treat it as such, not as an entheogen. Present popular trends do not dictate past or future experiences.

Individual marijuana strains and psychological reactions based on expectations and intentions will govern how it affects people individually in a mental sense. There is no single textbook psychological reaction to smoking marijuana, only broadly-defined, similar physiological effects. Nor can similar chemical processes throughout the entire spectrum of users eliminate the ability to perceive something "more' than being stoned. There is no start/stop point for receiving or being in the presence of God, I feel it can happen anytime, sober, or intoxicated, based on your intentions.


--------------------


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OfflineOrganic
Lloyd

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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
    #5946632 - 08/09/06 05:29 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Its not about peak experiences and ego death but as the definition above says; evoking religious ecstasy or vision and Holy communion




I think this is key to re-iterate, though like you said, cannabis can bring on a "peak experience" and ego-death as well.


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Offlinethesyntaxera
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
    #5946738 - 08/09/06 07:41 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

well establised where? you present thesis and theories as facts and there is nothing i have read more about than history, you also fail to understand that following this theory on the origin of various gods cannabis could just as well be one of these psycadlic plants.




Thesis and theories....according to science that is all there is. Pot as an entheogen is being presented as fact. Whats the difference?

As far as sources...Vertigo has a link at the bottom of his posts about this...Astrotheology and Shamanism has about 1000 sources that all say nearly the same thing...I could rattle them off or you can follow the link if you wish...either way the information is there if you go looking for it.

Quote:

And again and for the last time, not only was marijuana the vedic soma sacrifice from 7th-11th century but also in India it has been a sacred inebriant associated with Shiva, this is all well documented. Now this qualifies as entheogen just as much as Ska Pastora qualifies as entheogen for its use by the mazatecs.




Actually if you read history a little closer no one actually knows what the ingredients of soma were. Most likely it was a combination of available psychedelics. Cannabis is considered to be part of the mixture by some, but most won't deny the significant role mushrooms played in it's effectiveness.

Quote:

Its not about peak experiences and ego death but as the definition above says; evoking religious ecstasy or vision and Holy communion,, lets define communion;




ok stop there for a minute. What do you think peak exp/ego death is?
Have you ever experienced it...? Religious ecstasy and vision is the ego death, it's what you experience at the peak of a high dose mushroom excursion. It's unavoidable and lasts for about an hour or two depending on how big of a hero you want to be when eating them. Holy communion...what do you think this is? Perhaps the act of dissolving your consciousness(ego) into the void of all that is and allowing your guard to come down long enough to feel the presence of what McKenna refered to as "the Other"...what the Greeks called Logos.


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
    #5946739 - 08/09/06 07:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

vertigo, so by your definition only substances than can enable ego death are entehogens? that is your definition?. because you are saying one thing then another thing here in this thread. to me it just sounds if you got the term entheogen and psycadelic mixed up.




not exactly, im saying ego death comes before the experiance im considering to be 'entheogenic'.
so its not the definition, but a requirement.

Quote:

but I dare someone who has never smoked it (which I doubt to find on this sight, lol) to smoke a half a gram of well grown sensi for the first time and not find it comparable to a low dose mushroom trip, come on guys, try to think back to your first time, am I wrong?




yes.
my first time was skunk, and it was quite an experiance, but not realy comperable with shrooms in its nature, only in degree of perception changes.

also low doses of shrooms do not yield entheogenic experiances.
my position is that the word entheogenic is ment to apply to specificly those experiances that (often but not always) come after 5 to 7 dry grams of P. cubensis, taken in silent darkness.

Quote:

By your logic, a lightning bolt could have been the reason for 'discovery' of God, since no one could understand such complex things in their little cavemen minds




lightning bolts can be freely expressed with words based on other things that exist in this reality.
the abstract wierdness of a psychedelic experiance cannot.
and if you go look for something as fundamentaly wierd as 'god', psychedelics realy are the only place worth looking.

and when you do you can find exctly that kind of situation that conforms to the basic concept of divinity and prettymuch all manners in wich it is described troughout history.

[qupte]I agree absolutely...who wouldn't argue a threshold dose and huge dose are different? The argument is that marijuana can just as easily get you there as mushrooms, intentions, tolerance, amount consumed considered.




just where is it you think you are going?
are u one of those kids who takes 2 grams of cubensis and thinks he knows what shrooms are all about?

gtf outta here, weed and shrooms are in no way interchangable.
the idea is just byond stupid, its an induldgence of ignorance.


--------------------
-Know ye not that ye are gods?-
My homepage


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Invisibleshamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #5946752 - 08/09/06 08:01 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Actually if you read history a little closer no one actually knows what the ingredients of soma were. Most likely it was a combination of available psychedelics. Cannabis is considered to be part of the mixture by some, but most won't deny the significant role mushrooms played in it's effectiveness.




your thinking about the soma that predates the practice of soma I refferr to that noone knows what exactly is, there are historical evidence for my claims.

I suggeest reading the cannabis chapter in the book called Plant of the Gods by Hofmann, Schultes and Rätsch.

Also another intresting fact just to throw it in, the Tepecano indians of northwest mexico use cannabis whenever peyote is not availble in shamanic rituals

And I could go on, In early china (2000BC) it was known that ma-fen (hemp fruit) had hallucigenic properties, its written in the Pen Tsao Ching if taken in long term it makes one communicate with the spirits and lightens one`s body.


--------------------
note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best :smile:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0


Edited by shamantra (08/09/06 08:45 AM)


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
    #5946775 - 08/09/06 08:16 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

dude, the most well informed, most capable people cannot agree on what soma was.
forgive me if im not swayed by your little theory there...


--------------------
-Know ye not that ye are gods?-
My homepage


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Invisibleshamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #5946796 - 08/09/06 08:36 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

you are also talking about the original soma. im not talking about that one. im talking about newer practice of soma and its not my little theory as you call it

read;
Journal of Psychedelic Drugs
Vol 9 (No. 3) Jul-Sep 1977; 227-233
by Michael R. Aldrich

(abstract;The sacred beverage described in the Veda texts was probably made from a hallucinogenic mushroom, but it was replaced by hallucinogenic hemp in the 7th-11th centuries)

or like allready mentioned the book plants of the gods


--------------------
note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best :smile:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0


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Invisibleshamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
    #5946845 - 08/09/06 09:25 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

here is a another quote from plants of the gods,


"The value of Cannabis in folk medicine has clearly been closely tied with its euphoric and psycoactive properties; knowledge of these effects may be as old as its use as a source of fiber. Primitive man, trying all sorts of plain materials as food, must have known the ecstatic euphoria-inducing effects of Hemp, an intoxicant introducing him to an otherworldy plane leading to religious beliefs. Thus the plant early was viewed as a special gift of the gods, a sacred medium for communion with the spirit world"

:shocked:



--------------------
note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best :smile:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0


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OfflineOrganic
Lloyd

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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #5946902 - 08/09/06 09:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

just where is it you think you are going?
are u one of those kids who takes 2 grams of cubensis and thinks he knows what shrooms are all about?

gtf outta here, weed and shrooms are in no way interchangable.
the idea is just byond stupid, its an induldgence of ignorance.




The ego-less one speaks again :flowstone:

How does it feel to have your fingers jabbed in your ears?

My psychedelic experience is not on trial here, your terrible argument is. I've had plenty of high dosage experiences, education, and culturing to serve the both of us. Personal attacks, squirming, and futile attempts to redefining entheogen seem to be your only options now.

They are absolutely interchangeable since they served the same function to different cultures where one or the other is not available. A barrier of intensity, in the most general dumbed-down sense (which I refute, once again, eat some hash) does not eliminate a substance's cultural, historical significance to ENTIRE CULTURES that existed in both the past and RIGHT NOW.


--------------------


Edited by Organic (08/09/06 10:32 AM)


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
    #5946913 - 08/09/06 10:02 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

shamantra said:
here is a another quote from plants of the gods,


"The value of Cannabis in folk medicine has clearly been closely tied with its euphoric and psycoactive properties; knowledge of these effects may be as old as its use as a source of fiber. Primitive man, trying all sorts of plain materials as food, must have known the ecstatic euphoria-inducing effects of Hemp, an intoxicant introducing him to an otherworldy plane leading to religious beliefs. Thus the plant early was viewed as a special gift of the gods, a sacred medium for communion with the spirit world"

:shocked:






Thats all speculation though, not factual.  But i do agree with it.


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #5947130 - 08/09/06 11:32 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

must have's aint gonna cut it dude.

just because some tribe somewhere worshipped something doesent make it an entheogen, we have been trough this already.

in fact, im done with this discussion.



--------------------
-Know ye not that ye are gods?-
My homepage


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InvisibleJim
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
    #5947160 - 08/09/06 11:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I believe Ythan was working on a project entitled 'the Greenery'


--------------------
Use the Fucking Reply To Feature You Lazy Pieces of Shit!

afoaf said:
Jim, if you were in my city, I would let you fuck my wife.


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OfflineOrganic
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #5947163 - 08/09/06 11:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

:bye:, 'dude'


--------------------


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #5947213 - 08/09/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

:bye:  :iloveyou:


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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #5947224 - 08/09/06 12:10 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I see where you are coming from, but maybe you are just hard headed and taking for granted what nature has given us?


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Invisibleshamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #5947252 - 08/09/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Vertigo6911 said:
must have's aint gonna cut it dude.

just because some tribe somewhere worshipped something doesent make it an entheogen, we have been trough this already.

in fact, im done with this discussion.






you know, this is the exact same argument as your friend came with only he said it could not be marijuana because marijuana could not provide ecstatic experiences. there was talk about cavemen eating mushrooms.. 

ill quote:

"I feel I should add a disclaimer. Vertigo and I are not out to diminish any of the "truths" you have gleaned from your varied experiences. We are having a discussion about the proper meaning of the word entheogen however, and if we are going to talk origins then we had better look back a long way. "

"It's pretty well established that the origin of "god concepts" heralds back to the first time a humanoid accidently ingested a psychedelic plant. A comparison of the contents of a peak experience and the descriptions of the "other worlds"(heaven...etc) of the various religions and their individual interpretations only reveal more striking similarities."

"All we are saying is that the idea of having a god in the first place, of having any concept of anything outside of animal instinct was probably catalyzed by psychedelic compounds and that this led to the development of religion because people lacked the scientific understanding to deal with a peak experience."

"Allow me to rephrase...If a person wanted to have an experience that was by virtue of it's own nature the catalyst for all forms of "religious" thought dating back to animism then the only way to achieve that would be to eat 3 or more grams of mushrooms or some other dmt derivative."

he also strangly enough said
"One key chemical reaction that limits the use of pot as an entheogens is it's effect on vassopressin."


you said
"cannabis does not facilitate holy communion, therefore it is not an entheogen."
""holy communion" doesent mean to get closer to, it means to be in the presence of. " (you should look that up)

and
" im saying ego death comes before the experiance im considering to be 'entheogenic'. so its not the definition, but a requirement."
after saying this:
"psychedelic is not the same as entheogen.
not all entheogens are psychedelics, not all psychedelics are entheogens. "

a quick summary perhaps a little out of context
next time you get someone to back you up at least you two should agree but your friend made a better case but he talked cavemen found mushrooms and created the concept god (I assumed it was related to what are true entheogens and not off topic rambling). Schultes said the same thing about marijuana as i just quoted and you come with this reply and said your done with this debate. ..

oh well.
but dont get upset, its just a debate. i like to debate on subjects like this and there is no debate without someone with diffrent opinions.

:sun:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogen


--------------------
note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best :smile:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
    #5948039 - 08/09/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

well i didnt ask him to back me up but more to help me express some tricky things.

as for peoples worshipping MJ, whats to say they had the same idea of divinity we are discussing here?

from the sounds of it the 'spirit world' is percieved as an external thing, and that contradicts the specific sense of the 'god within' that is a part of the experiance we have in mind.


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-Know ye not that ye are gods?-
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