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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD


Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5941798 - 08/07/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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The administrators are aware of these concerns in this forum, we are working on something we will announce in the near future which should solve the problems for both sides here.
Just ask for your patience for now.
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Vertigo6911
Entheobotanist



Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 1,834
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Thor]
#5941812 - 08/07/06 07:06 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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awsome
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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chubbycharley
the chubbiest ofthe charleys

Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 525
Loc: everywhere
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5941920 - 08/07/06 07:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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well, now that the problem is/will be solved, i would just like to throw my opinion out there, see if any one understands what i think.
marijuana, LSD, mushrooms, DMT, MDMA, mescaline, caffeine, alcohol, N2O, salvia, any substance that is psychoactive, according to my interpretations of the Toltec people's legacy, provides a shift in the "assemblage point". some shift it in one direction, some in others and all in varying strengths/distances and directions.
the Toltecs teach us that when our assemblage points move, other worlds, other dimensions "open up" or rather, we focus our consciousness on other worlds through using the power that we have.
a powerful shift, like that from a heavy dose of salvia, will put you in another world fully and fairly quickly. the same with DMT. but the character of the two trips is so different. this is because of the direction of the shift.
DMT, mushrooms, LSD, tend to shift people into the realm of the "mold of man" or what many have come to call "god". really, it is just the state of being where you have attained the ability to witness the energy that is everything, all around us, inside of us. the same state can be attained through meditation which illustrates the point that these "entheogens" just provide a shift in our assemblage point, a boost of power that can be used in many ways.
cannabis provides a boost, as does alcohol, and every other drug. the earth, our mother, provides a boost. if we have enough power, we don't need a boost and can move our assemblage points on our own (meditation anyone?)
in conclusion i say entheogens just provide us with a boost of power, any drug that gives us a boost is an entheogen, what we see is real, there are no hallucinations 
read Carlos Castaneda's books for his journey into the unknown, he explains the finer points of this stuff much better than i.
-------------------- if i'm just a stoned stoner, sayin some stoned ass shit, please correct me
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ngnyus
the madherbalist



Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 519
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: chubbycharley]
#5941970 - 08/07/06 07:53 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't trust Castaneda, read quite a few of his book's, thought the first one was interesting, the rest just seemed made up, and I guess several people hold this opinion, especially among the native american church.
--------------------
 You reap what you sow
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Vertigo6911
Entheobotanist



Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 1,834
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5941979 - 08/07/06 07:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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maybe, but he's making shit up as he goes along. castanada is the last person i would take seriously on this...
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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ngnyus
the madherbalist



Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 519
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5942039 - 08/07/06 08:07 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Cool, we actually agree on something, lol
--------------------
 You reap what you sow
Edited by ngnyus (08/07/06 08:08 PM)
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Vertigo6911
Entheobotanist



Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 1,834
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: ngnyus]
#5942063 - 08/07/06 08:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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no wait, im pretty sure we agreed on something a wile back... i dont remember what it was... oh well... lol
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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chubbycharley
the chubbiest ofthe charleys

Registered: 04/02/04
Posts: 525
Loc: everywhere
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5942148 - 08/07/06 08:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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the NAC has nothing to do with the ancient Toltec way of knowledge. if you told a person who never used drugs what you saw on LSD, mushrooms, DMT, salvia etc... they would tell you you were making those things up, that they didn't happen to you.
personally, i have been able to draw parallels between the books and my own experiences, both drug and sober experiences.
Quote:
maybe, but he's making shit up as he goes along.
"making shit up as" we go along is the only thing we as conscious human beings could ever do. we are all artists making up this world, creating what we see.
btw, that is a piece of Toltec wisdom that is available to everyone who sees the big picture 
Quote:
castanada is the last person i would take seriously on this...
and that's your problem, you are taking everything too seriously. nothing is meant to be taken seriously as nothing matters. when we are dead, what matters?
nothing of this world i can tell you.
-------------------- if i'm just a stoned stoner, sayin some stoned ass shit, please correct me
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Vertigo6911
Entheobotanist



Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 1,834
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: chubbycharley]
#5942196 - 08/07/06 08:47 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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if its like that i might aswell get my info from the smurfs and expect to be taken seriously...
will i?
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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thesyntaxera
Stranger
Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 7
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5943165 - 08/08/06 02:58 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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If we are seeking definition in stead of conjecture then I think you have to look back at what led to what.
No one ever smoked herb and had an ecstatic experience. Marijuana doesn't even come close to comparing so why compare it? It is it's own thing for sure, and deserves a rightful place somewhere, but not under the banner of entheogen.
I realize the subjective nature of the supplied definition, but I think I still have to disagree. The reason I think I have to disagree is because if in it's loose translation it means to be "inspired" than almost anything qualifies. In fact, I don't know about the rest of you but I very rarely need drugs to be "inspired", and if I did I would think something is wrong with me.
So is a landscape an entheogen? A good poem? A good movie? Your navel lint? A good shit? Where do you draw the line?
Definitions by definition should be definitive.
If it's "god within" where did the concept of god come from? Would anyone argue against the idea that it was the accidental discovery of mushrooms during a period of gathering and hunting that led people to consider that there might be something more out there?
If it's a case of chicken or egg, in this instance the egg certainly came first in the form of a psychedelic plant and the chicken later in the form of the god concept. Cannabis has not the capacity to do anything but make you stoned, sure everything seems enhanced, but that still does not equate it with a high dose mushroom trip which almost assuredly is the catalyst for the whole concept of the god in the phrase "god within".
Is this making sense or am I just chasing my tail?
I think what I am saying is that the word entheogen is too open ended to be considered as an all inclusive definition. Perhaps mushrooms, and other plant based visionary psychedelics should have a seperate catagory...something that indicates a more profound experience, which mushrooms without a doubt are, when compared to marijuana.
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888
Stranger


Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 149
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5943172 - 08/08/06 03:02 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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book learning = nothing real experience = everything
and just so you unexperienced book readers know....
cannabis has extreme ranges and so does the intent of the one using it
Since you like books so much think of it this way... Words can be used in many ways... it is how you use them that makes something conveyed
Or lets say your body.. your mind. You don't even need a substance to enter a profound state. It's your intent.
Some of you are intent on learning whats in books. So thats all you'll ever learn and then you'll probably write a book; the chain of idiots continues. Thank you.
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thesyntaxera
Stranger
Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 7
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: 888]
#5943372 - 08/08/06 07:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
888 said: book learning = nothing real experience = everything
and just so you unexperienced book readers know....
cannabis has extreme ranges and so does the intent of the one using it
Since you like books so much think of it this way... Words can be used in many ways... it is how you use them that makes something conveyed
Or lets say your body.. your mind. You don't even need a substance to enter a profound state. It's your intent.
Some of you are intent on learning whats in books. So thats all you'll ever learn and then you'll probably write a book; the chain of idiots continues. Thank you.
Book learning equals nothing...hmm...let me take a minute to digest this.........
Isn't book learning part of "real experience"? Is there any other form of personal experience other than first hand? And what does that have to do with drugs?
How can you possibly say book learning equals nothing when the very computer you are composing this halfbaked burn on is the result of that which you dislike, not to mention just about everything around you.
but I digress...
Allow me to rephrase...If a person wanted to have an experience that was by virtue of it's own nature the catalyst for all forms of "religious" thought dating back to animism then the only way to achieve that would be to eat 3 or more grams of mushrooms or some other dmt derivative.
If a person wanted to feel "inspired", and like groovy man...then by all means smoke weed or do acid, or any of the numerous other engineered chemcicals available, and while you doing that feel free to delude your mind into thinking that it is some how equal to the previously mentioned experience in terms of breadth, depth, and sheer cosmic sensation...an experience that is too difficult to describe in words honestly.
Or don't, and just recognize the difference.
As I said, perhaps there just needs to be a new word invented to seperate the two.
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Organic
Lloyd

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 5,774
Loc: Overlook
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: thesyntaxera]
#5943406 - 08/08/06 08:18 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Instead of making up terms for subjective experiences, how about we leave people to decide for themselves how they want to communicate with their God?
Have you considered that your 3+gram key to heaven could be just a delusion, and the real communion with God lies in your happiness/wellbeing in relation to yourself? Ah, the mushroom/indole headspace you speak of MUST be the golden path, huh? This smacks of elitism and seems like a sound basis for a Mushroom Fundamentalist Religion.
Face it, no chemical explanation/attempted rationalization/dumbing down will designate how each individual is affected by a drug. Everyone is different, no one's idea of God is the same, and no one's method of communion is the same. This paragraph doesn't consider the flocks of sheep.
Anything can be an entheogenic tool, and all experiences derived from such are valid to the person experiencing them, they do not require a guidebook, a psilocybin overdose, confirmation from an internet guru, etc, to be in the presence of God.
Don't you think the notion of categorizing and designating "God drugs" a little silly, elitist, and highly subjective other than if you were out to sell and profit from your message?
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Organic
Lloyd

Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 5,774
Loc: Overlook
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: thesyntaxera]
#5943423 - 08/08/06 08:32 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
You can witness wholly 3 dimensional alternate comsmic realities complete with other lifeforms, and can at least feel as though you are communicating with the entire universe non-locally...
I think you need to eat hash if you think this cannot happen on marijuana. Granted, you may not 'believe' what you see as much as on any of the DMT-like molecules, but who is to say THAT is a hinderance? A more skeptical interpretation of your experience may be beneficial (and psychologically healthier) to some.
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shamantra
hobbyethnobotanist

Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 1,177
Loc: ¯\(º_o)/¯
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5943425 - 08/08/06 08:35 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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vertigo, so by your definition only substances than can enable ego death are entehogens? that is your definition?. because you are saying one thing then another thing here in this thread. to me it just sounds if you got the term entheogen and psycadelic mixed up.
buty i agree that castanada is full of shit tho
other than that what organic just said.
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
Edited by shamantra (08/08/06 03:15 PM)
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mr_minds_eye
Disposable Wage Whore

Registered: 01/22/02
Posts: 1,948
Loc: Samsara
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5943458 - 08/08/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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How many of you usually are thinking about geting right with God when you are about to get laid. In spite of this sex has been used by many different cultures for religious reasons. Even in Christianity, the reason you only have it with your wife(a person who you are supposed to be connected to by God) is because it is supposed to be holy. With that said I'm supprised that most anyone here hasn't been jaded enough by dealing with the legions of fucking stoners out there who put the shit back like its Coca-Cola. I understand that it has religious use. I understand that it has a lot to do with intent. I also understand that there is a big fucking difference between cannabis and your classic psychedelics. On the other hand, nobody is complaining, like some one else said about poppy posts. Most of which by the way can be answered by the post the Wiccan Seeker has at the top of the forum. Nobody is complaining about posts about Tropane containing plants which also have been widely used religiously but are a far cry from fungus or mescaline. I also have yet to hear a complaint about posts on Sinuchi, Wild Dagga, Kratom, or a whole list of other plants which fail to produce comperable states of conciousness. Not that they aren't important, or that a person couldn't concievably work them into a religous ritual with positive results. The point is yes weed deserves it's own forum. That has been settled, they're working on it. I think its kind of funny that as soon as ego was mentioned it went downhill from there. You know anypost probably has a little bit of ego in it. It is basically you saying that I, so and so, deserve to be heard damn it! I mean ego is how we function in the world. I mean that as recognition, and acting out of self. That doesn't mean that you have to be a hard-assed prick about it though. Next we are going to have this whole forum turned into a religion. The side who says that weed is definatly an enthogen that ranks next to peyote or mushrooms will be one denomination. The side that says well its possible but not really will be on the other. Side one will employ death sqauds against side two and side two will favor the use of suicide bombers against side one. Before you know it both sides will be too narrow-minded to see that they basically agree.... I will say that none of these guys look like they are trying to get closer to God, but refer back to my sex analogy. I smoke herb every day if I have it. Sometimes when I am high different religious concepts just suddenly hit me and make more since than they ever have. Understanding vs. knowing. I don't smoke it like some people, to try to completely obltiterate my conciousness. I on the other hand don't use it purely religiously. I will say that I tend to put herb in a different catagory than I do Ayahuasca or Peyote. None of us will be able to really understand anything beyond ourselves and our personal experience. Remember the world that you experience is only in your head. Nobodys right if everybody's wrong...The way, that is The Way, is not The Way... etc etc
-------------------- Our quest for discovery fuels our creativity in all fields, not just science. If we reached the end of the line, the human spirit would shrivel and die. But I don't think we will ever stand still: we shall increase in complexity, if not in depth, and shall always be the center on an expanding horizon of possibilities. -Stephen Hawking
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shamantra
hobbyethnobotanist

Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 1,177
Loc: ¯\(º_o)/¯
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: thesyntaxera]
#5943470 - 08/08/06 09:15 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
thesyntaxera said: No one ever smoked herb and had an ecstatic experience.
based on my own experiences i know this not to be true. i dont bother to comment on your thesis about creation of god because i feel its not relevant to the subject. but you base your opinion on that cannabis are unable to make you anything other than stoned and this is where we disagree.
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
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ngnyus
the madherbalist



Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 519
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
#5945220 - 08/08/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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O.K., personally the FIRST time I ever tried pot it was the first drug I ever did, even before I drank, and to me it was quite comparable to a psychedelic experience, I didn't know what was going on, etc., so if you want to say that a hunter gatherer could not have had a mind opening experience on marijuana it's hard for me to believe. Now I smoke pot at most once a month, so I'm not just a stoner coming to it's defense, but I have a theory that the people who do not consider it an etheogen had at the very least a relatively long stand of regular pot smoking, in which it becomes what it is to most stoners, just a high, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I dare someone who has never smoked it (which I doubt to find on this sight, lol) to smoke a half a gram of well grown sensi for the first time and not find it comparable to a low dose mushroom trip, come on guys, try to think back to your first time, am I wrong?
--------------------
 You reap what you sow
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MXNR
Did the Mushroom choose you?


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 406
Loc: MARS
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: ngnyus]
#5945612 - 08/08/06 08:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
ngnyus said: O.K., personally the FIRST time I ever tried pot it was the first drug I ever did, even before I drank, and to me it was quite comparable to a psychedelic experience, I didn't know what was going on, etc., so if you want to say that a hunter gatherer could not have had a mind opening experience on marijuana it's hard for me to believe. Now I smoke pot at most once a month, so I'm not just a stoner coming to it's defense, but I have a theory that the people who do not consider it an etheogen had at the very least a relatively long stand of regular pot smoking, in which it becomes what it is to most stoners, just a high, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I dare someone who has never smoked it (which I doubt to find on this sight, lol) to smoke a half a gram of well grown sensi for the first time and not find it comparable to a low dose mushroom trip, come on guys, try to think back to your first time, am I wrong?
Hear, hear 
Most of them have become jaded by that wicked weed
-------------------- Master: Everyday change your clothes and eat your food and you will become enlightened. Pupil: Master, I do not understand... Master: If you don't understand, eat your food and change your clothes.
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thesyntaxera
Stranger
Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 7
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5946218 - 08/08/06 11:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Instead of making up terms for subjective experiences, how about we leave people to decide for themselves how they want to communicate with their God?
Because their god doesn't exist in anyway that they could possibly conceive of in the first place...unless your talking about personal anthropomorphized gods that are akin to worshipping jesus.
Quote:
Have you considered that your 3+gram key to heaven could be just a delusion, and the real communion with God lies in your happiness/wellbeing in relation to yourself? Ah, the mushroom/indole headspace you speak of MUST be the golden path, huh? This smacks of elitism and seems like a sound basis for a Mushroom Fundamentalist Religion.
Thats pretty funny. Maybe you need to clean the weed fog off of your glasses and re-read what we have been saying. A Mushroom fundamentalist religion? Where are you getting this? All we are saying is that the idea of having a god in the first place, of having any concept of anything outside of animal instinct was probably catalyzed by psychedelic compounds and that this led to the development of religion because people lacked the scientific understanding to deal with a peak experience.
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Face it, no chemical explanation/attempted rationalization/dumbing down will designate how each individual is affected by a drug. Everyone is different, no one's idea of God is the same, and no one's method of communion is the same. This paragraph doesn't consider the flocks of sheep.
We are talking about chemicals that can be measured right. So even if each person is a pretty little snowflake we can still measure out dosages that produce similar effects across the board for each individual...it's human biology, and regardless of your pseudophilosophical leanings, human have an inherent universality about them overall, with minor exceptions...thats why things like medical practices are functional and useful.
Quote:
Anything can be an entheogenic tool, and all experiences derived from such are valid to the person experiencing them, they do not require a guidebook, a psilocybin overdose, confirmation from an internet guru, etc, to be in the presence of God.
Don't you think the notion of categorizing and designating "God drugs" a little silly, elitist, and highly subjective other than if you were out to sell and profit from your message?
See this is where I know we aren't even talking about the same thing...or at least aren't on the same page mentally. You are busy ascribing cult like behavior to the bits of text that are written in opposition to a pov that says "everything is subjective" when in reality that is complete bullshite defensive posturing designed to distract from the real point of the opposition.
If everything is subjective then we might as well throw science out the window all together.
Question: Are we talking about god or drugs here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychedelic_experience Because all we are saying is that there is a difference between A level on experience, and a level 5 experience as defined by MAPS.
Levels 1-3 are more or less psychedelic, and levels 4-5 are "entheogenic" in that the contents of those experiences is what led tot he creation of the god concept in the first place. Like I said...the "god" in the phrase "god within". It seems you have taken this to mean that I am implying that the mushroom at that dose is somehow transendant. It may be, but what I Was getting at is that the whole idea of god and it's related memes and symbolism found in human culture have been derived from these peak experiences.
This isn't a guess either, do a little reading through history and you will see this to be fairly accurate.
Edited by thesyntaxera (08/08/06 11:56 PM)
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