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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #5933918 - 08/05/06 08:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Vertigo6911 said:
the weed conversations are alot different from discussion of other plants.
the greed and ego behind these discussion never fail to amaze me.
neither does the shallowness, all these weed topics are causing the garden to degenerate.




I hate it when people insist on completely over-generalizing about users. I happen to be helping a friend grow a small amount of marijuana, and it happens to not be out of 'greed' or 'ego'...

Quote:

actualy, cannbis is not an 'entheogen' as such.
at the very most it can be a sort of substitute teacher...




To me this seems like about as shallow as these conversations can get. You seem to have the ego to decide marijuana isn't an entheogen, despite millenniums of human spiritual use...


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #5933920 - 08/05/06 08:33 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Vertigo6911 said:
no actualy we dont get to make up the dictionary as we go along.






Hahahaha... who made the dictionary? God?


--------------------
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Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
    #5933932 - 08/05/06 08:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What do you mean by this? Like listening to a stoner conversation while sober and thinking this is ridiculous




Nope. When people get increasingly stoned, you are watching them get increasingly impaired. The end stage of this is that they hang in their chair, eyelids drooping and jaw ajar, occasionally moaning or returning the exact sentance you spoke to them over and over for a minute or so, because it does just not compute. When they come to a little they roll a joint, until they're too stuporous again, throw the half-finished joint in their glass and its chronic ward time again for another hour.

There is no stoner rambling at all, there is stupor.
There is no conciousness expansion in there, there is loss of consciousness.

This is what Dutch drug agencies call "hardblowen" which roughly translates "using pot as a hard drug" and I've seen it on several occasions in several instances. I've also seen that if you prevent someone who is very high from their "energetically doing stuff", that they sink into that very same stupor, that them being "activated" by a high dose of weed is a coping strategy to prevent the stupor.

By the end of the day THC is a CNS-depressant.

I have seen people use a lot of weed during the coming-up of ECSTASY. The net result was a stuporous overlay over ecstasy's entheogenic effect. The much desired "loving magic" of Ecstasy simply did not occur: the pot facilitated withdrawing into yourself rather than opening up. At the HEIGHT of 125 miligrams of MDMA I asked said person how he felt. The answer was a sighed hum: "stoned", void of emotion, said in a voice as if he was utterly bored out of his skull.

Despite a fullblown dose of the purest MDMA, the session was utterly wasted, not just for him but for the entire session group because instead of the tender, delicate spiritual state MDMA invoked we now had a zombie on our hands who didnt partake in the group process but occasionally echoed a sentance he heard spoken, in a desparately futile attempt to join in with the group.

Said person has said that he was going to quit the weed over and over again about thirty times... in the last six months or so. But then, moments later, he shrugs his shoulders and gets more weed and he's off to his inner world again, where nothing in the outside world matters anymore. He started out enthusiastically exclaiming pot's "entheogenic value", but within a few weeks he smoked more days than not, and that to excess.

Its utterly tragic to have to witness that, and his case by no means is an exception.
This ofcourse biases me.

Pot only is entheogenically useful if used occasionally and moderately, and then in designated events where effort is taken to retain and enhance its entheogenicity.


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Invisibleshamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
    #5933946 - 08/05/06 08:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

you are forgetting the psycadelic properties to cannabis I think. Have you ever eaten hashish? its about set and setting. and you cannot disregard cannabis as a entheogen because it is wildy abused, then you must disregard mushrooms as entheogen as well because its hardly used as a entheogen foremost in the western world today if the use in the western world is what decides if a substance is an entheogen or not.


--------------------
note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best :smile:

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OfflineOrganic
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
    #5933953 - 08/05/06 08:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Nope. When people get increasingly stoned, you are watching them get increasingly impaired. The end stage of this is that they hang in their chair, eyelids drooping and jaw ajar, occasionally moaning or returning the exact sentance you spoke to them over and over for a minute or so, because it does just not compute. When they come to a little they roll a joint, until they're too stuporous again, throw the half-finished joint in their glass and its chronic ward time again for another hour.




:lol: All I can say is that I've never experienced that or seen it happen, and I'm glad.

Quote:

Its utterly tragic to have to witness that, and his case by no means is an exception.




Abuse of anything, to me, negates the entheogenic properties of the drug. It's unfortunate you've had such negative experiences with pot smokers :shrug:

Quote:

Pot only is entheogenically useful if used occasionally and moderately, and then in designated events where effort is taken to retain and enhance its entheogenicity.




I agree with this as a general rule, but there are exceptions. If you smoke every session as a prayer, like many Rastas do, it is entheogenic.

Culture seems to be mold our biases and opinions against pot as an entheogen, but I think a keen eye focused on pre-1960 historical use would suggest otherwise.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
    #5933957 - 08/05/06 08:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Vertigo6911 said:
yeah i guess i should not be surprised to find your collective idol to be a guy famous for doing nothing for a very long time...

and yeah i think it does matter, language always matters.
but your right, were going way off topic here...

or are we?
this is exactly the kind of crap im talking about actualy.
whenever weed is discussed you run into these idiots who try to boost their ego with it.




Like Vertigo.
Quote:


we dont see this kinda crap when people are talking about true entheogens now do we?




No, please leave this forum, and keep your closed minded point of view closed in your own mind.
Quote:



and BTW, using the word 'dose' when describing cannabis... seriously...  :lolz0rz:



You must not take your cannabis in doses...?

...

?


--------------------
Know your self.
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Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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OfflineOrganic
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
    #5933959 - 08/05/06 08:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

then you must disregard mushrooms as entheogen as well because its hardly used as a entheogen foremost in the western world today if the use in the western world is what decides if a substance is an entheogen or not.




:thumbup:


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
    #5933993 - 08/05/06 09:15 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
When you are high on a lot of pot:

-your shortterm memory is shot
-you are under heavy sedation
-you get racing thoughts

All in all I notice over and over is that being high on pot renders a user inert. When a drug is strong, its nature becomes more apparent.

-you can't follow the plot of a movie or conversation
-your emotional response to anything but a pot-effect is reduced
-you can't "hold that thought" because your memory is shot and your mind is racing

This contrasts strongly with all other herbs and drugs generally considered to be "entheogenic". Instead of lighting up your mind, a heavy dose throws you into a stupor. Instead of egoloss, you cease to function.

Sure, the weed can get you high, but the first thing most people who are high on pot want to do is light up again until they are stoned - heavily sedated, a state akin to that of Opium but far less pleasurable. A Dutch comedian called pot "Heroin ExtraLight" and though thats a stiff statement many people use it that way.

You can't flee into mushrooms and get away with it. You can very easily do this with pot. Just roll a big one and the Klingons will set the disruptor on stun and you lose track of what bothered you.

Judging definitions used above, Alcohol is an entheogen too, because if you're slightly inebriated, you can really get somewhere.

I disagree with that definition. With effort, weed and alcohol can be used as entheogens, but if the word has any meaning then that is reserved for the drugs and herbs that give spiritual revelation to most people who enter the state with an open mind, and even to a lot of people who merely take it to get "fucked up".




Man I don't know who you are telling people they're thrown into a stupor when they smoke marijuana.
What's wrong with all the opinionated people on this forum?

I have done complex, multiple order calculus, while severely 'stupid' on (good) marijuana (+3.5 grams) and been completely successful, and had an extremely enlightening time regarding how these processes work in my brain.

Yes, pot is an easy drug for beginners or those with low mental self control. So is alcohol.
This does not prevent either from being utilized as an entheogen.
Certainly the word itself is too spiritually rooted to have a definition with a 'cut off point' as sharp as you suggest.
There is no possible way that you can accurately specify CHEMICAL REACTIONS as being GODLY or UNGODLY, doing so would be scientifically senseless and religiously prejudiced.


I can not understand the need to tell another person about their own relationship with god.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #5934080 - 08/05/06 10:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

AS A MODERATOR:
ExplosiveMango, please stop your persecution of Vertigo. If you disagree then that is fine but do so in a respectful way. Remember that, like Vertigo, you are not the sole dispenser of Truth.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #5934094 - 08/05/06 10:17 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What's wrong with all the opinionated people on this forum?




You're just calling me opinionated because I disagree with you. If we agreed you'd give me highfive for a post well written. :wink:

Quote:

Man I don't know who you are telling people they're thrown into a stupor when they smoke marijuana.




Hear me out.
The basic pharmacological effect of cannabis is sedation and a mental stir. It is acquired behavior to become activated if you smoke pot. The average response of newbie humans, most smokers and animals given THC is to become increasingly relaxed/sedated until they almost cease to function. You can learn to remain alert, but the basic effect is one of relaxation, leading to disruption of shortterm memory or, yes, stupor in high doses.

Quote:

There is no possible way that you can accurately specify CHEMICAL REACTIONS as being GODLY or UNGODLY, doing so would be scientifically senseless and religiously prejudiced.
I can not understand the need to tell another person about their own relationship with god.




You misunderstand. I'm not saying pot "keeps God away" (devils herb indeed :wink:) because nothing can, but on a mind that tends to lose focus and jump from one thought to the next whilst being sedated, spiritual revelations are less likely to happen than on a drug which is the opposite of a sedative and provides crystal clear thought.

On the whole, more users of mushrooms complain about God intruding on their lives than potusers do :wink:


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
    #5934111 - 08/05/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
AS A MODERATOR:
ExplosiveMango, please stop your persecution of Vertigo. If you disagree then that is fine but do so in a respectful way. Remember that, like Vertigo, you are not the sole dispenser of Truth.





I do not believe there were any instances where I tried to share 'the truth' with vertigo.

You will notice my first reply had only instances where I informed him of how his opinion of people did not reflect my opinions;
(I hate it when people...), (I happen to be helping a friend grow...), (To me this seems like...)

I made sure to convey that these were simply my feelings on the subject.


In my second reply I simply requested an explanation of Vertigo's unbelievable claim, that humans do not, in fact, write the dictionary.

My third reply was simply used to illustrate that others have the same feelings about him as he does of them. I think he deserved the humor just because of the nature of his statements.



As for my "persecution of Vertigo" this is a ridiculous accusation and I would appreciate it if you would refrain from this sort of disrespect.

I know you are upset that I do not agree with you, but I do not believe it is right for you to be disrespectful to any drug in its entirety, simply because it is not a good choice for you. I do not intend personal insult when I offer my views... but I will continue to do so on any occasion I feel undue disrespect is being put forward.

If you do not want users who are willing to defend freedom of drug use on this forum, clearly I am in the wrong place.



Likewise I believe members such as vertigo should have the innapropriacies of their conversation explained to them so that they may be able to learn to better express themselves. None of us need this disrespect.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
    #5934153 - 08/05/06 10:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


On the whole, more users of mushrooms complain about God intruding on their lives than potusers do :wink:




I found this to be the most illustrative portion of your post. I agree with the fact that unexpected encounters 'with god' happen on mushrooms more frequently than marijuana.
To me this suggests mushrooms push the mind into a more cosmically exposed position simple by their nature.
Marijuana does not seems to produce the same tremendous unfiltering effect that mushrooms do, however the numerous psychological and perceptual subtleties present are often mysterious, and occasionally profound.

In my opinion this translates into marijuana taking more 'faith' or 'effort' to communicate with god under the influence of. It does not in any way suggest this type of communicate is less valid than the 'easier to get close to god' sort.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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InvisibleCorporal Kielbasa

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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
    #5934163 - 08/05/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

When pot is eaten it is a totaly different effect. Visuals and hyperness

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Offlinengnyus
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Corporal Kielbasa]
    #5935587 - 08/05/06 10:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Man this discussion has gotten mean spirited since I last looked at it!
O.K. some think it's an etheogen, some don't, WTF does that matter, start another forum and everyone will be happen;
My etheogens of choice from now on are bread and wine,"lit. becoming divine within" right, LOL.


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OfflineMXNR
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: ngnyus]
    #5936877 - 08/06/06 12:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Cannabis is my primary entheogen. What right does anyone else have to say the plant is not capable of such things?


--------------------
Master: Everyday change your clothes and eat your food and you will become enlightened.

Pupil: Master, I do not understand...

Master: If you don't understand, eat your food and change your clothes.

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InvisibleC-Dizzle
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: MXNR]
    #5939488 - 08/07/06 12:49 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

and thats why we should get that subforum :smile:

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Offlinethesyntaxera
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: C-Dizzle]
    #5940918 - 08/07/06 02:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

hi all-
To be upfront, vert asked me to check this out because in general I agree with his point of view that cannabis is not a true entheogen. Anyone who has had more than a threshold experience on mushrooms can tell you this. Thats not to say pot can't produce trance-like states that are very similar to "tripping"...similar but not the same. What it really boils down to is a comparison of effects. While both are psychedelic they are not even close to the same thing. One key chemical reaction that limits the use of pot as an entheogens is it's effect on vassopressin. Vassopressin is the chemical that stimulates memory, and learning. Both alcohol, and marijuana work against the production of vassopressin producing the stupor like effects that are commonly noted.

The previous description of marijuana is mostly right on, except for the racing thoughts. That is an illusion created by the increase in heart rate as a response to lack of oxygen in the blood...it lasts momentarily, and once oxygen levels are restored you are left with the baked feeling. Increase in heart rate is in direct correlation with speed of thought...the faster the metabolism, the faster the thought...at least according to the leading theory of consciousness known as Orch-OR. Marijuana does not speed anything up, but slows it all down in a very interesting way... by quieting the mental chatter that we normally endure we can percieve new insights about the world around us, this does not equate it with the word entheogen however.

A chemical such as LSD is considered visionary because it does the exact opposite. It overloads the synapses with vassopressin, and disables our ability to filter incoming stimuli. In short, you are literally expanding your awareness to the peak of it's ability.

Here's where I say something really unpopular. Not only is weed not and entheogen, but neither is LSD. LSD is great for using your own brain to analyze situations/paradigms on a meta scale, but the whole time you are in control...a master of the universe.

Another drug that releases as much vassopressin as LSD is cocaine...not really a substance known for it's entheogenic properties, regardless of it's use by south american natives...not to mention their eagerness to bottle it into a soft drink.

The reason I personally chose to lump the previously mentioned chemicals in one catagory because they are only speeding things up essentially, or dumbing them down.

The effect of high dose mushrooms is something entirely different. It doesn't activate vassopressin, and it's nothing like serotonin or melatonin although all three(including dmt) have an almost identical chemical skeleton, allowing them to utilize the same receptor sites.

You can witness wholly 3 dimensional alternate comsmic realities complete with other lifeforms, and can at least feel as though you are communicating with the entire universe non-locally...the entire concept of "being in the presence of god" is entirely contingent upon some caveman finding mushrooms and eating them...only to run home and try and express the sensation to someone else.

Now if you take the last sentence and fast forward a few hundred thousand years you end up with organized religions so far from the mark that they don't even remember that is was some whacked out caveman that started it all.

That is why marijuana is not an entheogen.

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Invisibleshamantra
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: thesyntaxera]
    #5941307 - 08/07/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

.. in your opinion.


i dont see any relevance here, there is obviously several definitions to what an entheogen is and yours is diffrent than mine and also vertigos obviously. following all definitions i have seen on the word, cannabis is an enthogen because it has been employed as one in several cultures troughout history.


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OfflineVertigo6911
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
    #5941707 - 08/07/06 06:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

ive used a spoon as a screwdriver, that doesent make it a screwdriver.
nor does it make me a mechanic.

the last point i want to make here is that all of us smoker realy realy want to think of weed as an entheogen, because we derrive our identities from our percieved behaviours.
the man keeps telling you your an idiot for smoking and you want to compensate by pretending its something more then what it is.

this is in complete contradiction with true entheogens, as they facilitate ego death, a neccecery part of the equasion that weed cannot deliver.


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Offlinengnyus
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
    #5941763 - 08/07/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

O.K., isn't this the ETHNOBOTANICAL garden, not the etheogen garden? Those are two completely different terms meaning two completely different things, look it up. I also believe there are a few people who will not even consider what is being said if it disagrees with their preconcieved notions, could you be maybe a little open minded?, not every etheogen is a mind bending tyrptamine experience, though they do have a very important role, that is nowhere in the definition and just because someone wrote a book on it or is well educated does not make them the ultimate authority. In that case go tell the aztecs or mexican shaman that "the sun opener" is not an etheogen because the "buzz" isn't strong enough to qualify,....this is getting ridiculous.
Believe me I am FED UP with every damn post being about marijuana, but what gives someone the right to say what plants provoke their communion with god, essentially that is trying to dictate to them who god is. Obviously there is enough traffic on the subject to start a new subforum, and I will rejoice when this happens, but please stop with the etheogenic naziism, neither your opinion or interpretation of definition is fact, obviously many other people, well educated and uneducated, disagree with you, and you are not going to convince them that marijuana is not etheogenic any more then they will convince you that it is.


--------------------

You reap what you sow

Edited by ngnyus (08/07/06 07:05 PM)

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