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Organic
Lloyd
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 5,774
Loc: Overlook
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5931704 - 08/04/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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You are still misinterpreting the wording within the definition of entheogen you posted yourself, so until you comprehend it, this debate is over. Until then, consider my response to all of your replies my lecture on reading comprehension a few posts up.
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Jaeger
Dreamer
Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 960
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5931922 - 08/04/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Who cares guys, just take it easy. No reason to argue over the internet about something that doesn't really matter at all. All it does is clutter the forum, kill the thread, and piss people off.
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888
Stranger
Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 149
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5932005 - 08/04/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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do you know what entheogen means?
Quote:
at the very most it can be a sort of substitute teacher...
I think your dumb and have just as much of an ego as those you talk about, just in a different way. Commercial cannabis grown by profiteers has no where near the irie vibe as a spiritually grown plant. The plant has many lessons and embodies the way of the universe. There is ancient artwork of buddhas with mushrooms and cannabis. The plant provides all that man needs... food, clothes, shelter, medicine, and spirituality. You speak with no words fool.
But, ya I think cannabis should be a seperate forum.
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888
Stranger
Registered: 11/22/05
Posts: 149
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5932043 - 08/04/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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What do you know about practical use to a shaman? You are full of crap....... your one of those idiots that talks allot, doesnt get outside, and can't handle a dose. Am I right? You have more to learn from that plant than the dumb books you waste your time reading. Why don't you really do something instead of just reading about it and repeating what you think you know.
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Pingasa
Stranger
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: 888]
#5932085 - 08/04/06 04:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Pointless arguments aside, cannabis should have its own forum. It would just make it easier to find a bunch of information on cannabis. Does it matter weather or not it can be considered an entheogen?
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Vertigo6911
Entheobotanist
Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 1,834
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Pingasa]
#5932218 - 08/04/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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yeah i guess i should not be surprised to find your collective idol to be a guy famous for doing nothing for a very long time...
and yeah i think it does matter, language always matters. but your right, were going way off topic here...
or are we? this is exactly the kind of crap im talking about actualy. whenever weed is discussed you run into these idiots who try to boost their ego with it. we dont see this kinda crap when people are talking about true entheogens now do we?
and BTW, using the word 'dose' when describing cannabis... seriously...
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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shamantra
hobbyethnobotanist
Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 1,177
Loc: ¯\(º_o)/¯
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5932238 - 08/04/06 05:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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by saying cannabis is not an entheogen you are ignoring alot of history and present religious use of cannabis here., examples rastafarian movement, ancient jews, early muslims of the sufi orderl, the hashhashin, the hindus, the sikh, cantheism and the list goes on.
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
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ngnyus
the madherbalist
Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 519
Last seen: 14 years, 11 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
#5932298 - 08/04/06 06:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I happen to agree with shamantra here, even though I very rarely smoke pot myself, I would consider it an etheogen, sorry vertigo, I agree with your point too, but have you ever smoked with a true rasta?.. it is definitely used as communion, at least as much as main stream christians use bread and juice, and noone here is complaining about the opium poppy discussions?!?! . On the other hand someone PLEASE start a sub forum. Lately it seems like about a third of the posts here are on this subject, and frankly its annoying, in common language noone calls marijuana an etheogen, think about it, whether it is or not we all know what we are talking about when we say etheogens, and pot just kind of sticks out like a sore thumb IMHOP.
-------------------- You reap what you sow
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Vertigo6911
Entheobotanist
Registered: 12/04/04
Posts: 1,834
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: ngnyus]
#5933683 - 08/05/06 02:37 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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well then your both wrong. inscence was used religiously too, that doesent make it an entheogen.
Quote:
In Greek the word entheos means literally “god (theos ) within,” and was used to describe the condition that follows when one is inspired and possessed by the god that has entered one’s body.
also: any tribe with a shaman dependant on MJ alone is going to die off pretty quickly. u think weed will tel him where the game is going to be found? u think weed will tell them what the wether is going to be like? you honestly think u can run a small society on the information gleaned from weed?
i dont care what any of u 'consider' an entheogen. will you get it trough your thick fucking heads that u dont get to make it up as you go along, thats what u have the word psychedelic for!
an enthoegen is something that lets u TALK TO GOD. if u think weed does that then i got some religion to sell you guys. just send me all your money and ill get you to the afterlife in a jiffy...
get out your checkbooks folks, haleluyagobble!
btw, im a mod at a forum of intelectual discussion about these very things. i have scholars behind me on this, and it is in fact people who wrote the fucking book on shamanism that taught me this simple truth, not some stoners unedjucated oppinion.
why is it you guys want weed to be holy so badly anyways? you sure it has nothing to do with your own smoking habits?
seriously, your placing weed in the same catagory with shrooms and ayahuasca. you dont feel the slightest bit silly about that??
-------------------- -Know ye not that ye are gods?- My homepage
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shamantra
hobbyethnobotanist
Registered: 05/18/04
Posts: 1,177
Loc: ¯\(º_o)/¯
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5933734 - 08/05/06 03:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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your responses are very childish at best. its not the first thread you go on a rampage like this, so first of all you should learn how to respons like someone that claims to be as educated as you do.
, as allready mentioned your wrong and you are the one that should read up. i can take more examples, the sacred beverage in the veda texts that many thinks may have been mushroom (its a lot of debate on what was the original beverage also known as Soma) was replaced with marijuana in the 7-11th century in India where cannabis was eaten and they communicated with the gods. this is all in the books and scientific journals, ill help you find it. read up on journal of psycadelic drugs search for articles by Michael R. Aldrich. that alone qualifies cannabis to be concideret an entheogen according to the definition you just mentioned yourself.
of course it has nothing to do with my own smoking habits, and for me cannabis is not holy but the history speaks for itself and im facinated by history and have read a lot of it too.
I would like to hear what scholars you have in your back, what books you are reffering to and so on, i can at least provide sources and back up anyhing i say here in scientific litterature (just try me)
or maybe you dont care because you are a mod in a unnamed forum..
you should stop acting so immature when someone doesnt agree with you, this is not the first time vertigo.
-------------------- note: english is my 3rd languange, please ignore misspelling and poor english, im doing my best http://youtube.com/watch?v=ug98TKkWKy0
Edited by shamantra (08/05/06 04:12 AM)
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p_dot_cubensis
Failed MushroomHunter
Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 78
Loc: Wonderland
Last seen: 10 months, 2 days
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: shamantra]
#5933748 - 08/05/06 04:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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You know what I've actually noticed throughout this whole post. You all acted childish and got way off topic arguing about if it is an entheogen or not.....
The point of the original topic is that there are many posts about it that it kind of deserves its own forum if anything. It's unique enough and widely used enough. This forum could be Misc. Entheogens technically...
The originally point of the post was so that the many people visiting this forum for other common things other than pot, won't have to go through it all.
If anything i think it deserves its own forum anyway, duh.
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Edited by p_dot_cubensis (08/05/06 04:21 AM)
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Organic
Lloyd
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 5,774
Loc: Overlook
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5933769 - 08/05/06 04:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
whenever weed is discussed you run into these idiots who try to boost their ego with it. we dont see this kinda crap when people are talking about true entheogens now do we?
Flame? You are the only one spewing personal attacks, is that egoless? It is a common tactic to attack the debaters instead of the topic when you are losing. You seem to do this in every debate I've seen you participate in. Childishness will get you nothing. Have you considered that your ego being annihilated is making you feel 'ego-inferior'?
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well then your both wrong.
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i dont care what any of u 'consider' an entheogen.
Once again, thankfully you have no authority over what we value and believe.
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btw, im a mod at a forum of intelectual discussion about these very things. i have scholars behind me on this, and it is in fact people who wrote the fucking book on shamanism that taught me this simple truth, not some stoners unedjucated oppinion.
I bet that forum is a peach. Seriously, you do not grasp your own definition you are posting, cannot spell intellectual or uneducated, and you are going on a condescending rampage of EVERY poster in this thread that disagrees with you (everyone so far).
Nowhere does your own selective definition say "Must give you a direct telephone line to God", that is simply a reason for use which YOU are acting like is the ONLY reason for use. It is simply untrue and you are spreading misinformation because you've been backed into a corner and are incapable of bowing out gracefully.
I suggest you re-read the definition posted by the coiners of the term, paying special attention to:
in a looser sense, the term could also be applied to other drugs, both natural and artificial, that induce alterations of consciousness similar to those documented for ritual ingestion of traditional entheogens.
No one cares what you or some 'scholars' have to say about it. Entheogens are personally determined things, not something regulated by an elitist crowd of modern apartment-dwelling 'shamans' trying to sell their books.
WHO ARE YOU OR THEM TO DETERMINE THE VALIDITY OF SOMEONE'S EXPERIENCE WITH 'GOD'?
It doesn't take a whopping dose of a hard indole to make you see God. Some people are wired differently and pot CAN take them there. Who is to say mushrooms/DMT/etc don't just show us a part of our own psyche which we feel is God at the time, and it is a trick? Like shamantra said, entire cultures are devoted to using marijuana as an entheogen.
Acting like mushrooms, ayahuasca, and LSD-type substances are the only shamanic inebriants reaks of close-mindedness and elitism. You think the areas of the world these don't exist have no shamans? I'd like to see a guy dressed in plaid, speaking "scholarly", and touting his online moderator credentials approach a tribe of Rastas and tell them they are smoking a plant that does nothing but give you a 'buzz'...
I'm afraid none of us will accomplish anything with you from a quick review of your ratings and previous posts. I suggest you not insult everyone and their beliefs personally, when you have nothing to back it but your OPINION (NOT FACTS), it is only making you look bad and not be taken seriously.
I'd appreciate it if you responded to specific points we are making instead of disregarding them and going on another irrelevant, hateful tangent of assumptions, flames, and all-around childish behavior.
BTW, before you go "LOL R U STONED", no I'm not. I haven't smoked in a while. I am also not taking this thread personally or am upset over anything, sorry if it comes off that way. My style is too forceful sometimes, believe me, I know this and am working on it, but it gets the point across so I make no apologies for the truth.
Edited by Organic (08/05/06 05:10 AM)
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FooMan
Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Vertigo6911]
#5933831 - 08/05/06 06:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Vertigo6911 said: btw, im a mod at a forum of intelectual discussion about these very things. i have scholars behind me on this, and it is in fact people who wrote the fucking book on shamanism that taught me this simple truth, not some stoners unedjucated oppinion.
Spelling obviously isn't a big factor in that intellectual forum of educated opinions, huh?
Do yourself a favor and read back over your posts to see what a narcissistic prick you sound like. You're talking about other people boosting their ego when you are the only one here with a "holier than thou" attitude. What's up with the name calling? Yeah, you're real "mod" material for an intellectual discussion forum
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Cubenisseur
Mad Props
Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 1,392
Loc: Indian Land
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: FooMan]
#5933850 - 08/05/06 07:05 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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The last two posts, I am in full agreement with...just to lend my support to this issue.
And a separate pot category sounds good to me too.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,227
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: passitbobbie]
#5933858 - 08/05/06 07:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
When you are high on a lot of pot:
-your shortterm memory is shot -you are under heavy sedation -you get racing thoughts
All in all I notice over and over is that being high on pot renders a user inert. When a drug is strong, its nature becomes more apparent.
-you can't follow the plot of a movie or conversation -your emotional response to anything but a pot-effect is reduced -you can't "hold that thought" because your memory is shot and your mind is racing
This contrasts strongly with all other herbs and drugs generally considered to be "entheogenic". Instead of lighting up your mind, a heavy dose throws you into a stupor. Instead of egoloss, you cease to function.
Sure, the weed can get you high, but the first thing most people who are high on pot want to do is light up again until they are stoned - heavily sedated, a state akin to that of Opium but far less pleasurable. A Dutch comedian called pot "Heroin ExtraLight" and though thats a stiff statement many people use it that way.
You can't flee into mushrooms and get away with it. You can very easily do this with pot. Just roll a big one and the Klingons will set the disruptor on stun and you lose track of what bothered you.
Judging definitions used above, Alcohol is an entheogen too, because if you're slightly inebriated, you can really get somewhere.
I disagree with that definition. With effort, weed and alcohol can be used as entheogens, but if the word has any meaning then that is reserved for the drugs and herbs that give spiritual revelation to most people who enter the state with an open mind, and even to a lot of people who merely take it to get "fucked up".
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
Edited by Asante (08/05/06 07:30 AM)
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Organic
Lloyd
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 5,774
Loc: Overlook
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
#5933880 - 08/05/06 07:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Instead of lighting up your mind, a heavy dose throws you into a stupor. Instead of egoloss, you cease to function.
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Just roll a big one and the Klingons will set the disruptor on stun and you lose track of what bothered you.
Not in my experience. If I smoke a lot, my worries and troubles are amplified. I don't go into a stupor, I examine myself more thoroughly and the world around me. I actually took LSD before smoking pot, and I've always found pot to be like LSD-lite for me. I get very similar effects on high doses. Individual strain makeup is largely the factor here...if you are smoking bulk commercial indoor, you're likely smoking stupor weed because that is what grows well indoor. If you are on the beaches of Jamaica, under your 15 foot equatorial sativa, I'd imagine you would feel quite different after a couple of joints.
I don't use pot as an entheogen all the time, just like I've taken LSD or mushrooms to enjoy myself. You don't have to be shitting and puking yourself, in an introspective nightmare or state of bliss everytime you are on a drug for it to be an entheogen. It is all about your intentions.
Can alcohol or caffeine be an entheogen? Hmmm...probably not, unless you are extremely determined. The headspace is nowhere near as 'entheogenic' as pot, with alcohol you can be philosophical, but too much is undoubtedly for everyone I've met stupor material. If you take a sip to aid your meditation, then I think you're using it as an entheogenic tool, whether the substance is an entheogen or not. Is meditation entheogenic in THAT sense? Master your mind, and YES...no shamanic inebriants involved.
For those that have used pot AS a sacrament their entire lives, because it is ingrained in their culture, marijuana is DEFINETLY an entheogen. Are those people posting in this forum? Probably not, but that does not exclude their experience and culture from validity.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,227
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5933891 - 08/05/06 08:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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You are right, generalizing is wrong.
But still, the general trend is stupefication and withdrawing into a racing mind.
I've recently taken up hashish myself after more than a thousand days of abstinence, and though what I find is of value, I now once again see the insidiousness of what happens inside vs what the outside observer notices.
Really, a lot of potsmokers have the wrong idea about what objectively happens to them.
That aside, I put the matter of a designated subforum once again under discussion among the staff. The Cannabis people will have all their eggs into one basket and the main Garden crowd will see the usual diversity of topics return.
Ultimately I'm in favor of a main Cannabis Culture forum, invisible to n00bs like ODD is, placed in the top category of the forums. I feel the Cannabis Culture forum fulfills a genuine need, but simply stands apart from the main topic of this site. Its a long road from Terence McKenna to Cheech and Chong.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Organic
Lloyd
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 5,774
Loc: Overlook
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
#5933901 - 08/05/06 08:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I've recently taken up hashish myself after more than a thousand days of abstinence, and though what I find is of value, I now once again see the insidiousness of what happens inside vs what the outside observer notices.
What do you mean by this? Like listening to a stoner conversation while sober and thinking this is ridiculous, then smoking, and getting into what they are saying? Stoner rambling is a lot different than smoking alone and releasing yourself into the full effects. I doubt rastas discuss the profoundness of Cheetos or the satellite monitoring pot smoker Cheeto consumption.
The people I've seen on massive doses of LSD or mushrooms, talking or screaming to God look schizophrenic. Do I write them off as simply crazy though?
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Really, a lot of potsmokers have the wrong idea about what objectively happens to them.
I agree, but I would say the same about every other drug in the world. Like it or not, most people take mushrooms to get fucked up and party.
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Ultimately I'm in favor of a main Cannabis Culture forum, invisible to n00bs like ODD is, placed in the top category of the forums.
That is interesting...hmm. I like it, but I think a hidden subforum would be better. A main forum would attract more post whores just trying to get in.
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Its a long road from Terence McKenna to Cheech and Chong.
Eloquency and intentions may be the only gap.
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,227
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Organic]
#5933905 - 08/05/06 08:13 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Can alcohol or caffeine be an entheogen? Hmmm...probably not, unless you are extremely determined.
Nontheless was there wine on the table at the Last Supper of Jesus Christ, and the Islamic Sufi priests used coffee to stay awake during all-night prayer and meditation sessions.
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with alcohol you can be philosophical, but too much is undoubtedly for everyone I've met stupor material.
Almost everyone sinks into a stupor if they take enough weed, and the initial excitement has passed. In fact hashish was used to stupefy the Hashishins (and no I didnt think it turned them into killers LOL)
Quote:
if you are smoking bulk commercial indoor, you're likely smoking stupor weed because that is what grows well indoor. If you are on the beaches of Jamaica, under your 15 foot equatorial sativa, I'd imagine you would feel quite different after a couple of joints.
The majority of the people here smoke the commercial indoor stuff. Even the Jamaican christmas tree works through THC, which itself is a CNS-depressant in high doses.
Quote:
For those that have used pot AS a sacrament their entire lives, because it is ingrained in their culture, marijuana is DEFINETLY an entheogen. Are those people posting in this forum? Probably not, but that does not exclude their experience and culture from validity.
The same goes for alcohol. To Catholic priests wine is their entheogen, and the sip they take from the chalice has more than symbolic effects.
With things like mushrooms and salvia it takes deliberate intent for it NOT to be entheogenic for most people. With alcohol and weed it takes determination to keep the initial entheogenic state going, once the novelty wears off.
I'm not looking down on pot, I'm looking differently at pot than I do at lets say mushrooms.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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Organic
Lloyd
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 5,774
Loc: Overlook
Last seen: 14 years, 9 months
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Re: Half of the posts here are about pot.... [Re: Asante]
#5933910 - 08/05/06 08:23 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The majority of the people here smoke the commercial indoor stuff. Even the Jamaican christmas tree works through THC, which itself is a CNS-depressant in high doses.
This is true. I don't think slight sedation nullifies intentions though... I get couchlock from mushrooms much worse than any pot I've ever smoked.
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The same goes for alcohol. To Catholic priests wine is their entheogen, and the sip they take from the chalice has more than symbolic effects.
I haven't ever really thought this way about alcohol or coffee, thanks. I know tobacco is certainly entheogenic for some Native American cultures, a substance which when the majority of it's users intentions are applied certainly goes against the traditional entheogen definition.
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With things like mushrooms and salvia it takes deliberate intent for it NOT to be entheogenic for most people.
I think that is a little idealistic. Salvia is sold in sex shops and some of the users say all it does is get them horny.
Presentation and expectations...
Like most mushroom users are young, their dealer isn't going to tell them "You're gonna talk to God, man"...they'll say "These are going to get you fucked up", and the user will expect and perceive it as such.
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I'm not looking down on pot, I'm looking differently at pot than I do at lets say mushrooms.
I understand. That's fair and you make a good argument, I'm glad this thread is finally done degrading and we're accomplishing something.
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