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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: badchad] * 1
    #5922975 - 08/01/06 07:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

ADD is "real" and it's not caused by sugar.

whether it is what they say it is is up to debate.

for instance, depression is real. but rather than blaming it on chemicals, it often has a simpler source.

for instance, if you are habitually avoiding social situations and hiding indoors all day, this will CHANGE your brain chemistry. it does not mean that you fix the problem by giving drugs, when this problem is largely behavioral/psychological/social/emotional

now on the other hand, if you have a poor diet or a brain that somehow stopped being able to produce the chemicals it needed, BUT lived an absolutely normal life and still had bad depression, depression that wasn't psychological, that wasn't based upon philosophy or world view, just frankly, something wasn't right... THEN you are a candidate for drugs.

see.... diseases are caused by the interactions of DIFFERENT causes, we have chosen to focus on chemical intervention, and therefore tend to think chemical deficiencies "cause" something when in fact, the true causes are very complex and rarely blameable upon chemicals.

it's like, if you are hungry because you don't eat.... you don't stop being hungry by drinking water... you have to eat food.

now. any use of imagination can comfirm that some people may ahve really messed up brains and their "consciousness" is radically different than ours. if this is the case, then medicinal intervention is good.

if you are just hyper because you are ALIVE and a CHILD and ENJOY LIFE ENOUGH TO HAVE ENERGY FOR WHICH TO LIVE IT then there is nothing wrong with you.

if you don't care about studying and want to play, there is nothing wrong with you. but if you really truely cannot maintain attention, something needs to be done to rectify that.

we're all drug users, so i think we can understand what it's like to not be able to remember or comprehend things on account of temporarily altered brain-chemistry. for some people their base state of consciousness may be closer to that, than it is for us when we are "sober" and have our cognitive functioning in tact.

-----------------------

now something to point out about ADD.... is we could create a "disease" that would label shroomerites as dysfunctional....
defiance of authority
tendency to indulge in excessive fantasy
introversion

etc.

I dunno, you can have a disease, and have it be real, but at the same time it isn't. It depends on just why "add" came into fruition in the first place as a label. Like labeling homosexuality as a disorder for instance.... well.... is using psychedelic sacraments a disorder? Depends on how you look at it. It's an extreme violation from the norms of society, and therefore can cause duress from the isolation.....


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (08/01/06 08:04 PM)


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: badchad]
    #5922983 - 08/01/06 07:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

psilocyberin said:Of course drugs have an effect for limited periods of time upon our emotions and thoughts..... everything has an effect upon our emotions and thoughts: the television, the internet, politics, a butterfly landing on your finger, a gruesome car wreck. Interaction with any part of reality has a profound effect upon our thoughts and emotions.




agreed, but they could be producing these effects via changes in neurotransmitters, etc.




its possible, but then again, so is the inverse. Take pain for instance, if you stab yourself with a knife, there is only an electrical message which you interpret as almost tangible. it is your body giving you some reference for the spectrum of emotions. Happiness would just be a smile if it werent for the physical indication that we get, that tingle/euphoria.


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5923006 - 08/01/06 08:04 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
i would like to add that I am all for the recreational and spiritual use of drugs. I take mushrooms not because i think something needs to be fixed in my life, but to have a good time.

There is no difference between a crackhead, or a speed addict, and someone who takes speed under the guise of "prescription use". both are using the drug to avoid the real problems in their life, to escape the reality of their situation, to band-aid their problems away. Addiction is merely the state of needing instant gratification, the medium of that instant gratification is the drug. When you take speed to become more focused you are entering into a state of instant gratification.



well actually if a child is put on drugs when they are too young to make proper decisions, i think it's a lot different than an adult choosing to do speed.

do people first choose to do speed thinking "I have something wrong and this WILL fix it, because I have a medical problem that speed will cure"

or do they just want to feel better? Intent plays a big role, because the adult on pills just wants to feel better too, but he has faith he's doing something medically right for himself, instead of if he just decided to drop a sheet of acid and let God work it out. (or more realistically, become a heroin user)


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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Offlineswiftrance
Let there be light

Registered: 03/20/05
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: leery11]
    #5923933 - 08/02/06 12:20 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup: leery11 :thumbup:
well said, im on your side
:smile2:


--------------------


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: leery11]
    #5923982 - 08/02/06 12:34 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
ADD is "real" and it's not caused by sugar.

whether it is what they say it is is up to debate.

for instance, depression is real. but rather than blaming it on chemicals, it often has a simpler source.




Depression and ADD are as real as "happiness" and "melodrama" are. "You sir, are afflicted with happiness and we need to do something about it"... doesn't make sense right? then why does depression make sense as a emotional disease?
Could you guys just for one second stop and logically look at this? a disease of emotions? I think we can all agree that emotions are basically abstract, even though they seem to have physical manifestations, they are merely just effects to a cause.
Yes, a depressed state happens, it is part of life, without it, we would have nothing to measure happiness. If you mean that feeling down, irrationally shitty, or agitated exists... then yes, I agree with you, but it isn't something extrinsic, it isn't some force beyond your control bearing down on you and sucking the happiness out of you..... IT IS YOU!
ADD arises from the amazingly idiotic notion that every person should have some mild interest and be captivated equally by all subjects. We are all idiot savants: each person here has a passion, something which has chimed with them and their soul since the very first time they encountered it..... be it aviation, NASCAR, water polo, chinese checkers, or shadow puppets. I seriously doubt there is one person on the face of this earth who is unable to maintain focus on every single subject. Just because you have no affinity for history, algebra, biology, etc doesnt mean there is some physiological malady affecting and controlling your aptitude. ADD is just another word for disinterest. How many people "afflicted" with ADD on this board could rattle off precise directions on PF tek, spawn bags, the pros and cons of horse manure, the physical characteristics of individual strains, bird seed vs rye grain..... get my point?


Quote:

for instance, if you are habitually avoiding social situations and hiding indoors all day, this will CHANGE your brain chemistry.




here, i completely agree with you.

Quote:

now on the other hand, if you have a poor diet or a brain that somehow stopped being able to produce the chemicals it needed, BUT lived an absolutely normal life and still had bad depression, depression that wasn't psychological, that wasn't based upon philosophy or world view, just frankly, something wasn't right... THEN you are a candidate for drugs.




this is like saying, if you never shave, shower, and constantly shit your pants and still somehow manage not to have a girlfriend, then you are a great candidate for using prostitutes.

Quote:

see.... diseases are caused by the interactions of DIFFERENT causes, we have chosen to focus on chemical intervention, and therefore tend to think chemical deficiencies "cause" something when in fact, the true causes are very complex and rarely blameable upon chemicals.




again, i agree.



Quote:

now. any use of imagination can comfirm that some people may ahve really messed up brains and their "consciousness" is radically different than ours. if this is the case, then medicinal intervention is good.




what do you mean by "messed up" brains? there is Downs Syndrome, mental retardation etc which can be proven to have physical abnormalities in the brain which limit function. There is no normal "consciousness", there is only abnormal consciousness when compared against the illusory rules society has set forth.





Quote:

we're all drug users, so i think we can understand what it's like to not be able to remember or comprehend things on account of temporarily altered brain-chemistry. for some people their base state of consciousness may be closer to that, than it is for us when we are "sober" and have our cognitive functioning in tact.




leery, I love you and your posts, but please step outside of yourself for a little while and re-read this statement. Can you really claim that your perception of reality is a true representation of reality?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5924120 - 08/02/06 01:06 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Here, I want to show you guys something. This is straight out of the DSM, and it lists the symptoms of ADD/ADHD. If after reading this, you still think that these vaguely defined actions are able to accurately diagnose 9 million children in America of having a physiological deficiency, then.... fuck..... I don't know....

Quote:

1.

Six or more of the following symptoms of inattention have been present for at least 6 months to a point that is disruptive and inappropriate for developmental level:

Inattention

1.

Often does not give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities.
2.

Often has trouble keeping attention on tasks or play activities.
3.

Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly.
4.

Often does not follow instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand instructions).
5.

Often has trouble organizing activities.
6.

Often avoids, dislikes, or doesn't want to do things that take a lot of mental effort for a long period of time (such as schoolwork or homework).
7.

Often loses things needed for tasks and activities (e.g. toys, school assignments, pencils, books, or tools).
8.

Is often easily distracted.
9.

Is often forgetful in daily activities.

2.

Six or more of the following symptoms of hyperactivity-impulsivity have been present for at least 6 months to an extent that is disruptive and inappropriate for developmental level:

Hyperactivity

1.

Often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat.
2.

Often gets up from seat when remaining in seat is expected.
3.

Often runs about or climbs when and where it is not appropriate (adolescents or adults may feel very restless).
4.

Often has trouble playing or enjoying leisure activities quietly.
5.

Is often "on the go" or often acts as if "driven by a motor".
6.

Often talks excessively.

Impulsivity

1.

Often blurts out answers before questions have been finished.
2.

Often has trouble waiting one's turn.
3.

Often interrupts or intrudes on others (e.g., butts into conversations or games).




Now, lets even say that this list has some shred of validity to it, and that in some amazingly illogical, bizzarro world that these symptoms did equate to cephalic abnormalities.... how is it in anyway ethical for a pediatrician to prescribe schedule II drugs to 6 year olds based on 18 questions, many of them relating to school (a time when most parents are not able to observe their kids behaviour), answered by the childrens parents?

How many of you have gone to a doctor with severe physical pain afflicting you and begged and pleaded to get something stronger than Vioxx? what happened? maybe if you are lucky, or had your wisdom teeth pulled out, you will get 20 lortabs, and not the 10's either.

where is the enforcement of medical ethics here? why can a doctor be threatened with losing his license and having enormous malpractice suits filed against him for writing a prescription for codeine (an over the counter drug in Canada: search 222's), yet be completely guilt free when a 7 year old has a heart attack?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5924263 - 08/02/06 02:20 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I have ust decided to bombard you with facts. Also, I urge anyone who disagrees with me to counter my claims, show me some alternative statistics with sources, show me improvement rates and such.

Quote:

Big Pharma now spends more than $5.5 billion to promote drugs to doctors–more than what all U.S. medical schools spend to educate medical students. (New England Journal of Medicine, June 23, 2005 "The Lessons of Vioxx")

Major drug companies employ about 90,000 sales representatives – one for every 4.7 doctors in the United States. (American Medical Association)

The total pharmaceutical marketing budget is $25 billion. (Forbes magazine "Just Say NO!" by Robert Langreth Nov. 29, 2004)

Drug firms have spent $800 million since 1998 buying influence, including $675 million on direct lobbying of Congress. No other interest group has spent more money to sway public policy. (Center for Public Integrity)




only 3 years ago did medicare stop funding Electroshock therapy.

Even more startling was the fact that the largest growth spurt in antidepressant use was among preschoolers. Other statistics showed antidepressants sales reaching the total of 37 billion in sales in 2003, which came out to $9 million more than was spent on treatments for the heart, arteries and blood pressure

I would also like to add in regards to all those people out there who have so dilligently informed me that it costs 800 million dollars to test and create a new drug, that not one of the Big Pharma companies has ever proven this, and to this day refuses to show anyone its books.

Quote:

The industry claim of $800 million costs per drug relies on a study from an industry-funded research center at Tufts University in Boston. Tufts researchers supposedly had access to industry data to come up with their figure, but no one else is able to see the underlying data. So if you choose to believe in this number, it is simply a matter of faith.




have we not learned our lesson with Big Tobacco? lets see the similarities stack up here....

Quote:

* Both Big Tobacco and Big Pharma produce and sell products that often cause injury or death when used as directed.
* Both industries knew that some of their most profitable products were injuring and killing people, and either hid such evidence, lied about it or both.
* Both industries hired their own experts to produce often phony, always misleading non-peer-reviewed, “research” designed solely to cast doubt on any genuine research by outside experts that came to conclusions that could hurt sales.
* Both industries attacked, slandered and punished those within or associated with their industries who broke the company stonewall by trying to sound a warning .
* Finally, both industries enjoyed overly cozy relationships with government—relationships that enabled them to maximize profits for a long as possible, regardless of the harm such products were known to be causing. (In this regard, Big Pharma has gone even further, by compromising the FDA, the very federal regulatory agency that is supposed to protect consumers.)





and this just in!!! ON JUNE 30TH, 2006!!!!
Quote:

June 30, 2006 is a day that will be long remembered as a dark milestone in the history of FDA and its campaign against health consumers. On June 30, an FDA "Final Rule" goes into effect, establishing a regulatory power grab of such scale and scope that it attempts to bypass all laws, the will of Congress and fundamental protections for consumers. This "Final Rule," which may as well be called a "Final Solution" for drug consumers, claims that consumers can no longer sue drug companies for the harm caused by any FDA-approved drug, even if the drug's manufacturer intentionally misled the FDA by hiding or fabricating clinical trial data.




wow.... I guess we Americans did learn our lesson..... We see the similarities here, and passed a law which disallows drugmakers to be sued......

Also, I will find the link somewhere, but in the last 5 years, over 116 drug advertisements have been recalled or "reprimanded" due to false advertising.


but you guys go ahead and eat those pills, because Big Pharma knows what is best for you. Why would you have any reason not to trust them or our government, or your doctors who get huge bonuses and advancing pay scales for the amount of psychopharmaceutical prescriptions they write?


here are a list of other made up diseases that don't have any marketable drugs to cure it (yet)

Quote:

Beware, a new book shows that an epidemic of mental illness is sweeping the nation. Does your 10-year-old dislike doing her math homework? Better get her to the nearest couch because she's got No. 315.4, Developmental Arithmetic Disorder. Maybe you're a teenager who argues with his parents. Uh-oh. Better get some medication pronto because you've got No. 313.8, Oppositional Defiant Disorder.

And if your wife won't tell you that she snuck out to the outlet mall last Saturday, then she's definitely got 313.2, Selective Mutism. Omigosh! My family is full of psychos. Trust me, I'm not making this up. (That would be Fictitious Disorder Syndrome.)…

Only a decade ago, psychiatrists said one in 10 Americans had a mental illness. Now, according to the manual, half of the population is mentally ill. How the other half stays sane remains a mystery. The manual will have to be updated annually because mental health professionals and defense lawyers keep discovering new illnesses. Just since the beginning of the year the experts have unearthed these new disorders:

Lottery Stress Disorder (or LSD): A London psychiatrist discovered the outbreak among losers who experienced “definition of mood and feelings of hopelessness” when their numbers didn't come in.

Chronic Tax Anxiety Syndrome (CTAS): A Washington psychotherapist specializes in treating couples who suffer from excessive worry, sleeplessness and marital squabbling every April.…

I know there are some cynics out there who will scoff at these new diagnoses. Maybe you think it's all psychobabble, just a gimmick to make money for the therapists. You wouldn't be caught dead on a psychiatrist's couch.

You people are in serious denial. As a matter of fact, your unwillingness to seek professional help is itself a symptom of a serious mental problem. It's right here in the book: 15.81 Noncompliance with Treatment Disorder.3




in the first edition of the DSM, there were only 116 mental disorders. Now there are 374 listed, excluding homosexuality of course, which was on the list, but then voted off in the latest edition.

......so, I will let you guys, if anyone is left reading, either really think about this information provided, or encourage the popular dissent to prove all of this wrong and innaccurate, in fact, not even all of it, just one or two things. I would also really enjoy the dissenting people to find me proof of ADHD, which should be hard, since this really lame quote keeps popping up...

Quote:

Even the APA admits in its DSM-IV that there are “no laboratory tests that have been established as diagnostic” for ADHD.




hmmmm.... could it be an open and shut case? I dont think any amount of slandering Scientology will be able to lift you out of that one.....


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5924967 - 08/02/06 10:34 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
a depressed state happens, it is part of life, without it, we would have nothing to measure happiness. If you mean that feeling down, irrationally shitty, or agitated exists... then yes, I agree with you, but it isn't something extrinsic, it isn't some force beyond your control bearing down on you and sucking the happiness out of you..... IT IS YOU!



i don't think so man. being depressed is not normal or healthy. being sad is. but for me i was in a neurotic state where my happiness was conditional upon something that i could NOT have and it created a suicidal cycle of feedback. it was clearly something severely wrong with my perceptions of the world, and it was crippling, sucking, draining, and I would easily consider it a disease.

I think it is a symptom of society. I think we are taught that we can shoot for the stars, then we realize it's a lie... all the things we are told will make us happy, we chase never being able to grasp them, til one day we are broken.

Depression can easily be rooted out to delusions and false views upon what happiness is........ for instance if happines is ONLY getting this girls favor, it isn't having an ice cream. petting a puppy. going to a concert. riding a roller coaster. sitting at home having a tea.... going for a slow walk... if it's ONLY getting the girl.... you're straight fucked, because you were programmed wrong.

this is also why I think "ADD" springs up, because we are programmed to ignore the simple and slow pleasures and emotions of life, and are bent on being constantly overstimulated to the point of having an agitated mind that thinks happiness, enjoyment, entertainment, is something that comes to you at lightning speed, instant download.... something that you get NOW and NOW and NOW..... something that requires absolutely no effort!

depression is so very real though.... do you contest this? I agree it IS YOU but it's how you're wired to be. deep down inside happiness is conditional, rather than eternal, based upon delusions and defilements... oh i can only be happy if i earn a lot... oh i can only be happy if i have friends.... oh i can only be happy if i get a good wife and have kids..... after this and this plus this and this happen then I will allow happy.

this is however a strong indication for therapy, not drugs.
Quote:


ADD arises from the amazingly idiotic notion that every person should have some mild interest and be captivated equally by all subjects. We are all idiot savants: each person here has a passion, something which has chimed with them and their soul since the very first time they encountered it..... be it aviation, NASCAR, water polo, chinese checkers, or shadow puppets. I seriously doubt there is one person on the face of this earth who is unable to maintain focus on every single subject. Just because you have no affinity for history, algebra, biology, etc doesnt mean there is some physiological malady affecting and controlling your aptitude. ADD is just another word for disinterest. How many people "afflicted" with ADD on this board could rattle off precise directions on PF tek, spawn bags, the pros and cons of horse manure, the physical characteristics of individual strains, bird seed vs rye grain..... get my point?



i really think this is only partially it. for instance when i read posts my mind often wanders out of control and i will have to reread the same sentence a ton... this was partly because of pot and dissipated upon cessation of pot.... but at any rate.... some people clearly are better able to comprehend and sit in lucidity than others. it may be because of our culture and our overreliance on TV as a form of interaction... because TV gets in your face and makes you pay attention, while you are completely passive... a teacher might just lecture and expect that you hear.

i can't tell you how many times i've sat in class and when it's over i'm like "what in the world did we just talk about the whole hour?" and it's partly because of non-interest, you are right, but partly it's something else.

and it's illusory too..... i'm sure i could fix it, and meditate upon the teachers voice, make eye contact and rediscover learning, because i didn't use to be this way....

but do you deny that some people do not have grave problems paying attention to things that they should pay attention to? now maybe schools aren't for everyone, and you're right that they will be able to do something which they can focus attention on, definitely so.

so it's kind of a social disease, where non-comformity is viewed as problematic. it kind of is though, becasue to "survive" in this societ you generally have to conform to the working/schooling world.

Quote:


this is like saying, if you never shave, shower, and constantly shit your pants and still somehow manage not to have a girlfriend, then you are a great candidate for using prostitutes.



no those are behavioral problems. If you are a normal person, you have emotional support from close friends, from loved ones. You have financial stability. YOu don't have rigid demanding views upon happiness... you are in essence normal, but yet you exhibit behaviors of someone who is off the handle... you may benefit from medication!

it's tough though, because we don't care about cause, medication is basiaclly a coverup. it would be much better to root out the cause. but do you not think it possible the some people are just deficient in certain neurotransmitters?

Quote:


leery, I love you and your posts, but please step outside of yourself for a little while and re-read this statement. Can you really claim that your perception of reality is a true representation of reality?



i'm not sure exactly what you mean. I'm saying for some people, they may be naturally prone to paying attention to the subtle reality, rather than gross reality. For instance they may be heavily right brained, where they are tuned into the sounds the teacher is making, rather than the logical gist of what she is saying. Kind of like being stoned.... I'm wondering if one persons stoned reality is another's sober.

You know, there is SO much to pay attention to, but all our society wants us to do is to grasp the cold logical and plain side... if you are not tuned into that, there is so much... the brightness of the room... the vocal frequncies and sounds that the speaker's throat is making... and how they correlate to emotions the speaker seems to be expressing. the sounds of people coughing and chattering and talking..... the way the overall sound of the room meshes into a pattern based upon your brains clipping and rendering of the big picture........ what your tongue feels like.

your breathing... some people may not be fit to pay "attention" in the ways that society demands.

some people may also not be able to suppress excessive sensory information, and i used being high as an example. if you read a TON into a simple gesture, and you make an assumption about that gesture, you may still be thinking about it and have missed the whole of what the person was saying to you, and you'd be like "what" because you base the rest of their interactions upon that gesture itself.

like i went to class stoned once and the girl i was sitting next to was tapping her hands, and i somehow thought it was her like, messing with my head and playing with me and i was laughing goofy and i was like "what are you doing!!!!" and for a long time afterward that hand tapping kind of put an influence on her like it seemed like she was interacting with me in a way that i would have normally been oblivious to while sober..... this could conceivable create a deficit in attention. though it didn't.

it did lead to me thinking about the Bible instead of the lecture my teacher was giving, because she was talking about spanking and religious traditions relating to it. but i do that anyway lol.

another instance, some people have wonderful long term memory, but are hard pressed to remember anything in the short term. i'm one of them.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (08/02/06 10:37 AM)


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OfflineWakeboardrB
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: leery11]
    #5925517 - 08/02/06 02:01 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Psilocyberin, obviously you have little or no understanding of the actual physical effects that mood disorders can bring about. Obviously you have never experienced it first hand, so it's perfectly understandable for you to not be able to get it.

While I respect your argument and do admit that I can't compete with you from an intellectual standpoint, I do have one thing that carries far more weight than anything you've presented in your posts...

EXPERIENCE

I've suffered from major depressive disorder, bipolar tendancies, ADD and certain personality disorders since before I even knew how to spell them. It's wrecked my life in more ways than one, caused me to drop out of college on two seperate occasions, and throw away every single important thing in my life.

Until you go through something like that, I couldn't possibly expect you to be able to understand the true nature of depression and attention disorders.

But perhaps the only thing worse than the clinical disorders and their symptoms is having to explain constantly to people that don't get it... Having to apologize for your actions on a daily basis and drive yourself crazy trying to get people to understand the shit you go through every single day. Trying to undo the hurt and pain that are felt by not only yourself, but your family and friends.. Now that's a full time job in itself.

Imagine a cancer or AIDS patient having to constantly explain themselves and apologize for having a debilitating medical condition.


I hope that I have shown you exactly what your type of mentality does to people that are already going through hell.

You might ask me for proof that Attention disorders and depression exist and I say I don't have to. I'm living proof and I'm reminded of it on a daily basis.

And I knew it before I ever learned a thing about psychology, I just didn't know the correct terms.


--------------------
Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #5926060 - 08/02/06 04:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Why do you have to constantly explain to people all the day the shit you are going through?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: leery11]
    #5926091 - 08/02/06 05:08 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
Depression can easily be rooted out to delusions and false views upon what happiness is........ for instance if happines is ONLY getting this girls favor, it isn't having an ice cream. petting a puppy. going to a concert. riding a roller coaster. sitting at home having a tea.... going for a slow walk... if it's ONLY getting the girl.... you're straight fucked, because you were programmed wrong.

this is also why I think "ADD" springs up, because we are programmed to ignore the simple and slow pleasures and emotions of life, and are bent on being constantly overstimulated to the point of having an agitated mind that thinks happiness, enjoyment, entertainment, is something that comes to you at lightning speed, instant download.... something that you get NOW and NOW and NOW..... something that requires absolutely no effort!




I completely agree, yet what I want to know now, is why you still believe that there is a physiological abnormality, when you have stated multiple times that it is a problem of programming and conditioning?

Quote:

depression is so very real though.... do you contest this? I agree it IS YOU but it's how you're wired to be. deep down inside happiness is conditional, rather than eternal, based upon delusions and defilements... oh i can only be happy if i earn a lot... oh i can only be happy if i have friends.... oh i can only be happy if i get a good wife and have kids..... after this and this plus this and this happen then I will allow happy.




I will have to quote myself here, because I think a post I just wrote explains my stance on this so well..

Quote:

is it possible that our society and the rules/confines it has set for normalcy and sanity are impractical when compared to actual human behaviour tested across all cultures?
if this were true, then it would be safe to say that there is no such abnormality such as ADHD, unless set into the confines of the American societal norms?

See, many of you are clinging to the delusion that our society and all of its wonderous modern medical technology and knowledge has created a correct model of macro-human behaviour, and anything which isn't in accordance with this model is an abnormality. When in fact it is the discrepency between a correct model of macro-human behaviour in which the "problem" of ADHD becomes apparent.






Quote:

i really think this is only partially it. for instance when i read posts my mind often wanders out of control and i will have to reread the same sentence a ton... this was partly because of pot and dissipated upon cessation of pot.... but at any rate.... some people clearly are better able to comprehend and sit in lucidity than others. it may be because of our culture and our overreliance on TV as a form of interaction... because TV gets in your face and makes you pay attention, while you are completely passive... a teacher might just lecture and expect that you hear.

i can't tell you how many times i've sat in class and when it's over i'm like "what in the world did we just talk about the whole hour?" and it's partly because of non-interest, you are right, but partly it's something else.




Do you really think that the only plausible explanation for you not being able to interact with aspects that society deems important. i used to have the same problem: reading a book, and realizing you have no idea what youjust read for three pages...sitting in class and realizing you have no idea what was discussed. I hate to even bring this up, but it is very relevant to this discussion, one of the things I believe Scientology had correct was in regards to this: if you dont understand a word, you will lose full grasp of the paragraph, and if you don't fully understand an entire paragraph, you will be at a loss for comprehension of an entire page. One word/idiom/concept which you don't fully grasp can create an entire misunderstanding, or often times, a complete blankness of what one has read.
I had thought to myself, that is bullshit, but the next time I read, i tried it out, with dictionary in hand, and any word in which i didn't completely understand, i looked up, and that was the first time I had complete grasp of an entire book. Believe it or not, that book was actually Stephen Kings "The Stand" unabridged version, which to this day i could recall every single aspect of the 1100+ page book.
I urge you to try this, even though it is tedious, but try it with a pamphlet or something, and see how much more you grasp then.


Quote:

but do you not think it possible the some people are just deficient in certain neurotransmitters?




compared to what? i dont think anything short of mental retardation should be considered an abnormality, i think we are all born with the capacity to equally interpret and perceive reality.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #5926120 - 08/02/06 05:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

WakeboardrB said:
Psilocyberin, obviously you have little or no understanding of the actual physical effects that mood disorders can bring about. Obviously you have never experienced it first hand, so it's perfectly understandable for you to not be able to get it.

While I respect your argument and do admit that I can't compete with you from an intellectual standpoint, I do have one thing that carries far more weight than anything you've presented in your posts...

EXPERIENCE

I've suffered from major depressive disorder, bipolar tendancies, ADD and certain personality disorders since before I even knew how to spell them. It's wrecked my life in more ways than one, caused me to drop out of college on two seperate occasions, and throw away every single important thing in my life.

Until you go through something like that, I couldn't possibly expect you to be able to understand the true nature of depression and attention disorders.

But perhaps the only thing worse than the clinical disorders and their symptoms is having to explain constantly to people that don't get it... Having to apologize for your actions on a daily basis and drive yourself crazy trying to get people to understand the shit you go through every single day. Trying to undo the hurt and pain that are felt by not only yourself, but your family and friends.. Now that's a full time job in itself.

Imagine a cancer or AIDS patient having to constantly explain themselves and apologize for having a debilitating medical condition.


I hope that I have shown you exactly what your type of mentality does to people that are already going through hell.

You might ask me for proof that Attention disorders and depression exist and I say I don't have to. I'm living proof and I'm reminded of it on a daily basis.

And I knew it before I ever learned a thing about psychology, I just didn't know the correct terms.




This is about the equivalent of someone statistically proving that God doesn't exist, and then you say, "I can't counter that, but i have a personal relationship with God and I know he exists".
I think you need for this to be true, or else the last 5-10 years of therapy and drug consumption is a lie, and complete bullshit.
Frankly, I don't even want to discuss this with you, because I seriously doubt your ability to try and see things from an alternative perspective regarding this matter.
Also, just because I didnt give my bad mood days a pet name and blame it on external factors beyond my control doesn't mean that I have yet to experience depression, mood swings or bouts of hyperactivity.

Much like a devout christian will refuse to listen to anything that makes them question the validity of their faith, because in doing so it throws their entire reality into turmoil and shows them that their entire devotion and goal in life has been chasing a non-existent thing.


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OfflineWakeboardrB
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5926369 - 08/02/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Wow, I don't even know why I tried.

What happens when your bad mood days occur every day and are enough to make you stare down the barrel of a shotgun and dream what life would be like without constant pain?

Are they still just bad mood days?

I guess that's what it is.. Thanks for showing me the light, I guess I can get over myself now. :rolleyes:


--------------------
Same thing happened to me when I played Neil Armstrong in Moonshot. They found me in an alley in Burbank trying to re-enter the earth's atmosphere in an old refrigerator box.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #5926437 - 08/02/06 06:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

case in point here in regards to my last post.

were you always depressed your entire life? even at the age of 4 were you having thoughts of suicide? or was there a certain age/turning point in which it manifested itself as this extrinsic force which made you incapable of enjoying life.

Do you honestly think that you are genetically predisposed to enjoying life any less than anyone else? if so, then yeah, you need a big dose of reality, logic and maybe even a swift kick in the ass to get over yourself.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5926825 - 08/02/06 08:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:

I completely agree, yet what I want to know now, is why you still believe that there is a physiological abnormality, when you have stated multiple times that it is a problem of programming and conditioning?



Well am I saying it's physiological? I'm saying it can be. But you really may be right. It's so hard to tell, because I think things like "well in tribes depression doesn't exist, because they all support each other unconditionally, and know how to use the right techniques to fix such issues" but how do I really know that's how it is, or I just imagine it because of the TV, or something else entirely.

it really might be, that any physiological problem is soley, entirely, and always caused by social factors instead. we live soooo unnaturally it isn't funny.

i find your quote very agreeable... and the insight into scientology is very fascinating.

There is definitely some truth to that. But to me it is also that my thoughts carry momentum and merge with what I am doing. This corrects itself with exposure. For instance if I am interested in what I am reading, I will eventually pay proper attention to it, rather than continue momentum of thinking about my life while also thinking about the book.

But, it can indeed be problematic though! Like I was reading Castenedas Art of Dreaming right now, and deliberately I kept thinking about how my dreams applied, while trying to continue reading at the same time..... and the two trians of thought sometimes didn't merge properly.

I feel there is a proper flow where the brain can multi-task at thinking different thoughts, for instance maybe it is proper to give day-dreaming 90% priority and decrease reading down to 10% until the day-dream is complete (assuming the day-dream is based upon the context of what you are reading) then to jump right back up to normal reading "pace" and "mometum" hardly noticing the process.

I really think marijuana induces this sort of state of being in you, but it is very hard to put into words. It does some very neat things. But you have to learn how to blaze proper trails while stoned or I think you can create bad and lazy habits which can cause some [but as far as I see, correctable] cognitive issues if you toke a lot.

come on mary jane, be legal already!


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5926988 - 08/02/06 09:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I didn't take the time to read every post here but I want to say I agree with much of what I read.....But I know of a serious exception

I have a very close friend with 5 kids and one of them, a boy, is fucking crazy whacked on speed unless he is on some of this so called "speed" scam drugs that have been portrayed in this thread..I can tell you with the utmost confidence that with out this shit he will climb the wall and tear out your fucking eyeballs. He has always been this was since he was just a few weeks old. I don't really care about anyone thoughts or political views ..I know a child who would not be alive if not for these drugs....he would have ran in front of a car or carved his arms up with a butter knife. The little bastard is whacked I'm telling ya

Hyper Active Add and a few other things

When he is taking his Drugs regulary he is fine.normal. But if he misses his meds watch out............. :blush:

And no it's not because he is on withdrawls..he was like this at birth.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #5927647 - 08/03/06 01:39 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

did the parents try marijuana? maybe change his diet? what other alternatives were exhausted before they decided to place a toddler on amphetamines?

but here is another point I wanted to bring up but forgot about until now: Lets say that this child actually has some metabolism disorder (or any alternative which could possibly be a cause of hyperactivity), the rampant and often instant diagnosis from doctors would most likely prevent that from being further investigated, and all the while a real physical malady continues to fester into something truly debilitating or life threatening.

Also, here is something else to think about. After spending a good while searching on the internet, I could not find anything close to statistics or figures which stated how much money has been spent on trying to find a cure for ADHD/depression/bi-polar/anxiety/ADD.
I would actually go as far to say that ZERO dollars have been spent towards researching a cure for any of these diseases.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5927654 - 08/03/06 01:46 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

no one has brought up Scientology here, there is no need for ad hominems or personal attacks.

"Fruits of Scientology" wasn't meant to attack you specifically, but it certianly was ment to attack Scientology's irrational demonization of psychology.

Care to show me 1 scientific study which proves that the imbalance of brain chemicals is a CAUSE of mood disorders?

"Acute stress inhibits long-term potentiation (LTP) at synapses from the hippocampus to prefrontal cortex in the rat, a model of the dysfunction in the anterior cingulate/orbitofrontal cortices which has been observed in human depression. We demonstrate that the antidepressants tianeptine and, to a lesser extent, fluoxetine, are able to reverse the impairment in LTP, a measure of frontal synaptic plasticity, caused by stress on an elevated platform. LTP was induced by stimulation of hippocampal outflow. Beneficial effects on neuronal plasticity, defined as a reversal of the effects of stress in this paradigm, can be considered as a new animal model for the impact of stress on hippocampal/frontal circuits, a key target in psychiatric diseases." -- http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/14/2/224

"...Reductions in the size and density of some neuronal populations have also been described, accompanied by alterations in indices of synaptic terminals and dendrites. This form of pathology putatively reflects aberrant neurodevelopment or impaired cellular plasticity. A separate pathological process is suggested by the excess of subcortical focal lesions seen on MRI, especially in elderly patients; these probably reflect white matter damage of vascular origin. Both types of pathology have been observed, to a greater or lesser extent, in unipolar as well as bipolar mood disorders...it must now be considered likely that changes in brain structure, both macroscopic and microscopic, are a feature of primary mood disorder, a fact to be taken into account when interpreting functional imaging, neuropsychological and neurochemical data." -- http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/125/7/1428

"Microstructural changes in the white matter of the right superior frontal gyrus are associated with late-life depression. Further work is needed to determine how these changes contribute to depression outcomes." -- http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/161/7/1293


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5927664 - 08/03/06 01:59 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

LOL!

the first study shows how antidepressant work on lab rats.

the second one states "are a feature of primary mood disorder", not a cause.

and the third says "associated".

I have read countless studies regarding the correlation between mood disorders and brain chemistry, and not one has ever said one causes the other. Related and associated aren't proof of anything- especially not proof of cause.
Me jerking off and porn are related and associated, but porn is not the cause of me jerking off.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: My Thesis: Why Americans believe Depression and ADD exist. [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5928171 - 08/03/06 10:10 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
did the parents try marijuana? maybe change his diet?



wait, try giving the kid marijuana ?

hehe that would go well with the authorities! or did marijuana cause a birth defect in him? I was under the impression it didn't really do anything too severe or irreversible.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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