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InvisibleAsante
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Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole.
    #5924577 - 08/02/06 06:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I'm rubbing my hands. They get warm, energy is released which is a fraction of the glucose energy spent by my muscles.

I know my muscles annihilate mass to release energy to rub my hands. But does the energy generated by rubbing my hands, itself annihilate mass?


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole. [Re: Asante]
    #5924630 - 08/02/06 07:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Unless your body runs on nuclear fission, it's not accurate to say your muscles "annihilate mass". The reaction is chemical, stored glucose is broken down into ATP molecules which provide your body with energy. Kind of renders your question irrelevant, but the answer is "no".


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole. [Re: Ythan]
    #5924778 - 08/02/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

it's not accurate to say your muscles "annihilate mass". The reaction is chemical, stored glucose is broken down into ATP molecules which provide your body with energy.




Chemical reactions just like nuclear reactions convert mass into energy, they just happen to do so at a far more modest ratio because it involves chemical binding energies rather than nuclear binding energies.

The 3.5 electronvolt you get when you explode a molecule of TNT taps from the same source as the 250.000.000 electronvolt you get when you split an uranium atom: transformation of mass into energy.


Looks like one of us has the chance to brush up his understanding of the universe :sun:


EDIT: I couldn't help but wonder if the one in error was me, but wikipedia backed me up on this:

Quote:

Closely analogous considerations apply in chemical and nuclear considerations. However, in nuclear reactions, the fraction of mass which may be removed as light or heat, and which then appears as binding energy, is often a much larger fraction of the system mass. This is because nuclear forces are comparatively stronger than other forces.
Source




When you want something done in the universe something has to give, and usually that something is mass :sun:


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Edited by Asante (08/02/06 09:26 AM)


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole. [Re: Asante]
    #5924855 - 08/02/06 09:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

My point isn't that a chemical reaction can never release energy (combustion anyone?) but that breaking chemical bonds in a molecule isn't the same as elemental transmutation where energy is released from the genuine annihilation of nuclei. I never took college level chem or bio so I may be misunderstanding, but I still think your statement is somewhat innacurate.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole. [Re: Ythan]
    #5924879 - 08/02/06 09:58 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If you burn a kilogram of wood in a camp fire, then when it's all over weigh the ashes and all the gasses released, you will find a tiny bit of mass missing. This missing mass is where the energy came from. Really!

The bonding energy that keeps the wood molecules together IS mass by E=mc2.


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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
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4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (08/02/06 04:25 PM)


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole. [Re: Diploid]
    #5924883 - 08/02/06 10:00 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Makes sense, thanks... see I was right I don't need college courses when I have you guys. :wink:


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OfflineSinthetic
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Re: Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole. [Re: Ythan]
    #5924886 - 08/02/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Your not really annihilating the mass so much as converting it into something else and releasing the energy stored in the bond.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole. [Re: Asante]
    #5924889 - 08/02/06 10:02 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

But does the energy generated by rubbing my hands, itself annihilate mass?

Indirectly. The heat you feel by rubbing your hands together was the energy released from glucose/ATP metabolism converted to kinetic energy, then to heat.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (08/02/06 10:30 AM)


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole. [Re: Asante]
    #5924946 - 08/02/06 10:25 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
I know my muscles annihilate mass to release energy to rub my hands. But does the energy generated by rubbing my hands, itself annihilate mass?




Annihilate isn't a very good word to use there. Annihilation refers to the complete conversion of matter into energy that occurs when a particle meets its antiparticle. For example: e+ + e- --> 2γ, where e+ is a positron (the antiparticle of an electron), e- is an electron, and γ is a quantum of electromagnetic radiation (2 are produced due to conservation of momentum).

When ATP is converted to ADP and AMP, some of the energy stored in the bonds of the phosphate chain is coupled to a protein which transitions to a higher energy state with a different configuration. It pulls another protein along in the process which causes movement of your arms. Heat is released here as waste (but in your arms not your hands) . The energy itself stored in the phosphate bonds has mass which is probably nearly undetectable but if it could be detected, one would notice a mass deficit after the reaction. This mass is ultimately converted to heat (in this context I mean infrared radiation) and kinetic energy (which also has mass) in subsequent reactions.

The heat generated by your hands rubbing together is a straight forward conversion of kinetic energy to thermal (also kinetic) energy that goes as follows: kinetic energy of moving hands is converted to kinetic energy of molecules in hands when the molecules of the hands collide and move into higher vibrational and rotational states (friction) --> vibrational and rotational states of the molecules in the hand begin to relax to lower states, emitting infrared radiation in the process, until they reach equilibrium (either the new hotter temperature if you continue rubbing your hands or body temperature after you stop). Temperature is a measure of kinetic energy, so all you're saying when you say that your hands are getting hotter is that the molecules therein are gaining increased kinetic energy—which is pretty obvious since the source of that heat is collisions.

Einstein's full mass energy equivalence relation is E = mc2 + 1/2mv2 (total energy = rest energy + kinetic energy, where m is the "rest mass"). As we know from special relativity, objects in motion have an additional contribution to their mass which can be absorbed into m, eliminating the need for the extra term in Einstein's equation.

In summary, you can view this process in at least 2 ways—in terms of the relative mass increase in higher energy systems relative to the same systems in lower energy states being converted to free energy, or simply in terms of conversion of potential energy into kinetic energy and kinetic energy into thermal radiation.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole. [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #5924994 - 08/02/06 10:49 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

But would these collisions themselves transform mass into energy? (which I believe it does)
Then we're at the rabbithole I mentioned in the thread title:

Considering matter influences matter through gravity and there being a residual temperature above absolute zero in space because of the big bang, then mass itself may bleed out of the universe, grinding itself into photons with every mass x mass collision.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole. [Re: Asante]
    #5925036 - 08/02/06 11:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
But would these collisions themselves transform mass into energy? (which I believe it does)




Yes. The collisions transform kinetic energy directly into other kinetic energy and indirectly into thermal radiation. Thus, the mass of the objects carrying kinetic energy is decreased and thermal radiation in the universe is increased.

Quote:


Considering matter influences matter through gravity and there being a residual temperature above absolute zero in space because of the big bang, then mass itself may bleed out of the universe, grinding itself into photons with every mass x mass collision.



Ah, but mass != matter. Matter has mass even at absolute zero (which is unattainable whether or not the big bang ever occurred due to the uncertainty principle). The mass you're referring to is only a tiny fraction of the mass contained in a system. What will eventually bleed itself out of the universe is usable energy, as all energy becomes "thermalized". See: heat death of the universe.


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InvisibleColonel Kurtz Ph.D
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Re: Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole. [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #5925235 - 08/02/06 12:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
...kinetic energy (which also has mass)




:confused: Care to explain this point a bit?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole. [Re: Colonel Kurtz Ph.D]
    #5925347 - 08/02/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Consider a mass M, moving at speed v, much less than the speed of light. Its kinetic energy E =½Mv². Its mass is M/sqrt(1 - v²/c²), which can be written as M + m. For small v, we can approximate m=sqrt(1 - v²/c²) as (1 - ½v²/c²) , and m=1/(1 - ½v²/c²) as (1 + ½v²/c²).

This means the total mass at speed v is M(1 + ½v²/c²), and writing this as M + m, the mass increase m equals ½ Mv²/c². This means that the mass increase m is related to the kinetic energy E by E = mc².


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole. [Re: Seuss]
    #5925966 - 08/02/06 04:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

This means that the mass increase m is related to the kinetic energy E by E = mc².

Mass increases with increasing potential energy too, which must be why it's hard to walk uphill. :grin:


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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole. [Re: Diploid]
    #5926134 - 08/02/06 05:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Does this mean that when you compress a spring you increase it's mass?


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Rubbing my hands at the entrance of a rabbit hole. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5926233 - 08/02/06 05:51 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Does this mean that when you compress a spring you increase it's mass?




Yes!  :cool:


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