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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
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No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease
#5924271 - 08/02/06 02:29 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Confronted with children whom psychologists, psychiatrists and teachers claimed had ADHD, I have not been able to find any abnormality—no disease whatsoever!
Dyslexia (or Specific Reading Disability), we are told, is an abnormality in the language parts of the brain, not manifest until the child fails to gain literacy in the early grades of school. What parents and teachers are usually not told, however, is that over sixty years of research have failed to confirm that a defect of any sort exists in the brain of a child who has been labeled dyslexic. Sadly, maintaining this condition to be a fact is doing incredible damage to these individuals. These made-up disorders, along with others including “Severe Emotional Disorder” or “Dyscalculia” (special arithmetic disorder), have never been validated as brain diseases. And believe me, I’ve asked the “experts.’
I wrote to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), to Ciba-Geigy (manufacturer of Ritalin), to Children and Adults with Attention Deficit Disorders (CH.A.D.D.) and four times to leading ADHD researchers at the NIMH, requesting that they direct me to one or a few articles in the peer-reviewed, scientific literature that constitutes proof of a physical or chemical abnormality in ADHD, thus making it a “disease.”
Paul Leber, M.D., of the FDA wrote in response: “...as yet no distinctive pathophysiology for the disorder has been delineated.” Gene Haislip of the DEA responded: “We are also unaware that ADHD has been validated as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease.”
I have yet to receive anything which would constitute proof of an abnormality—one that can be tested for patient-by-patient—one proving that we are not drugging entirely normal children. Even the APA admits in its DSM-IV that there are “...no laboratory tests that have been established as diagnostic” for “Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder.”
Lawrence Diller, M.D. of the University of California, San Francisco, who was a conferee at the 1996 DEA Conference on Stimulant Use in the Treatment of ADHD, wrote: “The reason why you have been unable to obtain any articles or studies presenting clear and confirming evidence of a physical or chemical abnormality associated with ADHD is that there is none.”
here is the link By Fred A. Baughman, Jr., M.D.
http://groups.msn.com/DebateCriticalThin...482622601008312
Edited by psilocyberin (08/02/06 02:16 PM)
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Afroshroomerican
Oprah's Minion


Registered: 05/12/06
Posts: 891
Loc: Pennsylvania
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5924273 - 08/02/06 02:30 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Is anything they say ever proven?
-------------------- "We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools." ~Martin Luther King Jr.~ <passitbobbie> if I just showed you a closeup of my ass <passitbobbie> youd think it was female "You owe errrbody up in here an apology fow youwe shit, HO!" - classic
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StroFun
Repeater

Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 977
Loc: Mycotopia.net
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How do you explain the effects of ritalin on my brain then? Why does it make my friends fucked up and it does nothing but make me think and focus better?
I'm not saying i need the medication but why doesn't it have the same effects on me as it does me friends?
Edited by StroFun (08/02/06 09:29 AM)
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD [Re: StroFun]
#5924896 - 08/02/06 10:04 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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well if i payed better attention in my psych course i could perhaps counter.
according to what i recall ADD is definitely shown and readable upon the EEG though.
so is autism, and if a certain part of the brain is stimulated, according to a man who did a sleep study on me..... people become temporarily autistic.
furthermore there is neurofeedback therapy in which you are trained to pay attention by focusing on a game, this game corresponds to your brain structure and is used to strengthen various deficient areas.
from meditating, i can really think that people can have deficiencies in the ability to pay attention, by not practicing so enough..... for instance one may be able to visualize a symbol and SEE it in their head, holding complete unwavering focus.... one may not be able to see anything at all or even begin to be able to "visualize" and one may be able to vaguely see but struggle proficiently.
i'd imagine that we can set up huge patterns that carry enormous momentum, which dictate how much we pay attention to single things, vs whether we are tuned into the broad spectru.
for instance being stoned you may be more liable to notice subtle details and feel inclined to wholly ignore the whole..... perhaps if you are sitting in class you are naturally wired to pay more attention to the air conditioner, frequncy nuances of people's voices, conversations going on, the temperature.... than you are to follow a lecture.
and what of test taking? Some people can take tests while others are talking, some cannot focus at all... and what abou reading? If I am trying to read and the TV is on there is a good chance the TV overrides what my head is processing, and I cannot independently read and lose comprehension, the same goes for if people are having a conversation.
cannot some people sit down with a book and read it even in the midst of such distractions?
the human brain is a very diverse thing, and perception and attention even moreso.
and you know what, even if i'm talking and someone suddenly starts speaking i lose focus of what i'm trying to say and their voice overrides me... one time at a protest we were chanting things and some car drove by and some guy yelled a counterchant... his counter chant completely threw me off and i didn't know what i was saying anymore.... whereas everyone else continued.
see...... such things can happen, and i'm sure in some way there are real attention deficits in some individuals, because they are wired to pay attention in different ways than the rest of us.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (08/02/06 10:09 AM)
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD [Re: leery11]
#5925043 - 08/02/06 11:05 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Inevitably, one will never be able to "definetively" prove a cause and effect relationship between an abnormality and any type of psychological disorder. Why? because if a hypothesis were correct, it would be unethical to cause a psychological disorder in an otherwise healthy individual.
Instead, correlations are often made. For instance, a recent studying using MRI to show changes in grey and white matter in brains of childern with ADHD compared to normal controls. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...l=pubmed_docsum
And if you perform a pubmed literature search you will find many studies of this type.
In fact, searching with the keyword "ADHD" yields 10791 studies. Many of which support the theory of a "chemical imbalance" being involved in behaviors such as ADHD.
In sum, you have thousands of peer-reviewed articles which support a biochemical basis of ADHD. Considering this wealth of information your counterclaim of:
"It's just all in your head and not real", isn't overly convincing either.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
Edited by badchad (08/02/06 11:16 AM)
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD [Re: badchad]
#5925619 - 08/02/06 02:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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look, I didn't add any spin to this quote except the use of bold to highlight the parts of the quote, which quote people like APA officials, DEA officials, and other doctors.
How can you claim, in the beginning of your post, that there is no way to prove the cause and effect, yet in the end of your post, you claim that there are thousands of peer reviewed articles and studies available..... even though last night, I spent over 2 hours researching facts regarding ADHD, ADD, depression,big pharma, and the FDA, and failed to ever see one definitive, reliable source that went beyond just merely saying "ADHD is a disease, and is affecting your child".
How can you say there is science behind something, when its own parent organization has said on multiple occasions that there is.. "...no laboratory tests that have been established as diagnostic” for “Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder.”"?
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5925825 - 08/02/06 03:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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It is likely there will never be a direct cause and effect because its a matter of "Chicken or the egg".
For instance, look at the study I posted above. In a nutshell, they used MRI to find structural brain abnormalities in children with ADHD (e.g. "Gray and white matter volume deficits").
Now, lets pretend that in future studies, they ALWAYS find "gray matter deficits" in children with ADHD, but not normal children. Even if this were definetively proven you would be faced with the question:
"Does ADHD CAUSE those structural abnormalities?" (perhaps they are some sort of compensatory change). Or "Do the abnormalities CAUSE ADHD?" (e.g. the abnormalities cause ADHD, rather than become the result of it).
This is why the majority of "studies" find "associations" between a chemical imbalance/structural abnormalities/genetic linkage and a disorder. Although it's just my opinion, you are correct in saying there is no "definitive" cause of ADHD, and there is no objective test for it......at present (this may certainly change).
The quotes you posted above are also correct, such as: “...as yet no distinctive pathophysiology for the disorder has been delineated.” “The reason why you have been unable to obtain any articles or studies presenting clear and confirming evidence of a physical or chemical abnormality associated with ADHD is that there is none.”
The reason for this is simple: The brain is extremely complex. Imagine it as a machine with millions of moving parts, and all need to work together in unison. With the current limitations of science, it is only feasible to study one part at a time. Even if one part is "broken" or associated with a mood disorder, it's impossible to tell what happens "down the line" or what happens as a result of it. Perhaps that same "down the line" final result occurs when either parts 1,2 and 3 are "broken" which would account for why you don't "always" find an association with a disease.
In sum: these disorders are so complex it's highly unlikely you will EVER find a "single definitive cause" for their occurrence.
As far as sources and studies are concerned, the most reliable, and most current studies are found on pubmed. Pubmed is not a resource for the general public, or "lay person".
Science works in very small increments or "baby steps". While a single paper or publication (examining a single "part" of the brain) is not evidence for a definitive cause or association, the sum (well over 1,000 publications) do in fact suggest it is more than simple "mind over matter".
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
Edited by badchad (08/02/06 03:57 PM)
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD [Re: badchad]
#5926027 - 08/02/06 04:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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that was a really good post badchad.
First, some clarification regarding EEG's: an EEG can only measure the activity of large groups of neurons. So it isnt very precise, and even with EEG triangulation, it is quite vague and cannot zero in on highly specific area of the brain, and especially cannot make a distinction between other voltage interference from external sources, or other areas of the brain. It is much like using a very old metal detector... it can tell you that there is metal down there, yet not what type, or exactly where.
but lets look at this matter as a whole now, in regards to the entire human race, as well as the american population afflicted with ADHD in comparison to the rest of the world.
we have reached a statistic in the United states alone that 1 in 4 children is supposedly afflicted with ADHD. I think we can all agree that no two brains are exactly alike, even within strict geneological lines or across tight ethnic cliques. What exactly constitutes a genetic abberation? I would think that something which affects a quarter of the population of a testable group doesn't really warrant a label of "abnormal". I am willing to bet that if you EEG'd a large test group of children, with and wthout ADHD, and measured 4 different areas of the brain, atleast 99% of all those children would be grouped into some "abnormal" brain group. If one were to look at the correlation between the amount of money spent of lobbying and advertising by Big Pharm and the number of people diagnosed with ADHD in that country, you would find a perfectly parallel statistical graph. I think that alone shows how much influence and persuasion has, as well as cultural standards of "sanity" and "normalcy" has upon diagnosis of ADHD.
is it possible that our society and the rules/confines it has set for normalcy and sanity are impractical when compared to actual human behaviour tested across all cultures? if this were true, then it would be safe to say that there is no such abnormality such as ADHD, unless set into the confines of the American societal norms?
See, many of you are clinging to the delusion that our society and all of its wonderous modern medical technology and knowledge has created a correct model of macro-human behaviour, and anything which isn't in accordance with this model is an abnormality. When in fact it is the discrepency between a correct model of macro-human behaviour in which the "problem" of ADHD becomes apparent.
(on a side note, that is the best explanation I have ever given of my stance on this issue. i am proud of myself.)
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5927638 - 08/03/06 01:29 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Undoubtedly, the overdiagnosis of ADHD is mostly due to the fact that it is measured by Parent Rating Scales and Teacher Rating Scales. In other words, the doctor doesn't even have to see the subject to diagnose him/her with ADHD! The Doc just needs a survey to be completed. 
The noradrenergic system is associated with attention, alertness, vigilence, etc, and a dysfunctional noradrenergic system is probably the best candidate for the cause of ADHD. (If it turns out to truly be a disease.)
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#5927650 - 08/03/06 01:41 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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but until then we are perfectly ok with giving toddlers schedule 2 drugs.
Can anyone come up with any figure or statistic which shows how much money has been spent, by anyone, to find a cure for ADHD/ADD/depression/bi-polar/anxiety?
Im glad that you have trust in the very people who are profitting from this to truly investigate and put an end to the very things which they created and not continue to sit on their hands hoping no one will notice it and continue to take the expensive designer drugs. Go back to sleep, your missing the American Dream.
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zorbman
blarrr


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5927731 - 08/03/06 03:22 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Medicine today is driven by the desire to sell drugs. If they can find a name for it they call it a disease and market a drug to attenuate that symptom. When that drug causes a side effect they push another drug to nip that in the bud. And so on.. The goal is not to get you well, but to line their pockets with your money.
RLS (Restless Leg Syndrome) is the one that really cracks me up. If your legs are restless guess what?? Your body is trying to tell you to get off your ass and exercise your freakin legs!!
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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StickyWater
Stranger
Registered: 06/09/05
Posts: 1,680
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: zorbman]
#5930809 - 08/04/06 08:49 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Edited by StickyWater (04/29/08 01:22 PM)
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zorbman
blarrr


Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: StickyWater]
#5935557 - 08/05/06 10:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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??
-------------------- “The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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majortom
EstrangedStranger

Registered: 07/31/06
Posts: 12
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: zorbman]
#5936140 - 08/06/06 02:53 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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hey hey hey we are missing the point -- if theres no adhd then how am i supposed to get a tasty scrip for addrall XRs ?? hmm?
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Zen Peddler


Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5936293 - 08/06/06 06:35 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Im inclined to agree with the MD, but his argument is pretty flawed. Just because they havent been able to identify an abnormality does not mean that there isnt one there. Look at Chronic Fatigue Syndrome as an example - lots of people have it yet they cant discern a cause. The reason depression and ADHD are such popular diagnosis lie in the promotional and gifts provided to doctors who prescribe SSRIs and ritalin large scale.
--------------------
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: Zen Peddler]
#5939615 - 08/07/06 01:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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So, whenever we have a problem, which appears to us to be an abberation from the standard model of american normalcy and sanity, we can just make up a syndrome/disease/disorder to justify its existence?
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RRRR
Rapture Ready


Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 170
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5968962 - 08/16/06 09:34 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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They aren't "making up" anything, they have a long list of possible causes. They just aren't sure which are to be held more responsible for the disorder than others.
After writing several essays on the subject, and doing much research, I am confident it exists. It complies fully with the guidelines provided by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
Here are some possible causes:
Possible causes
The exact cause of ADHD remains unknown, but there is no shortage of speculation concerning its etiology [10], most of which centers around the brain. The cerebellum in particular has been shown to be smaller in the brains of those with this disorder.[11] Another possible culprit is a region in the middle or medial aspect of the frontal lobe, known as the anterior cingulate cortex division.[12] The source of these differences is not yet known, but a couple of theories have been presented. [edit]
Hereditary dopamine deficiency
Research suggests that ADHD arises from a combination of various genes, many of which have something to do with dopamine transporters.[13] Suspect genes include the 10-repeat allele of the DAT1 gene,[14] the 7-repeat allele of the DRD4 gene,[15] and the dopamine beta hydroxylase gene (DBH TaqI).[16] Additionally, SPECT scans found people with ADHD to have reduced blood circulation,[17] and a significantly higher concentration of dopamine transporters in the striatum which is in charge of planning ahead.[18] [edit]
Diet
It has long been suggested that ADHD could be the result of a nutritional problem. Recent studies have begun to find metabolic differences in these children, indicating that an inability to handle certain elements of one's diet might contribute to the development of ADHD, or at least ADHD-like symptoms. For example, in 1990 the English chemist, Neil Ward, [19] showed that children with ADHD lose zinc when exposed to a food dye. Some studies suggest that a lack of fatty acids, specifically omega-3 fatty acids can trigger the development of ADHD. Support for this theory comes from findings that children who are breastfed for six or more months seem to be less likely to have ADHD than their bottlefed counterparts and until very recently, infant formula did not contain any omega-3 fatty acids at all.[20] Time and futher investigation will perhaps tell whether this correlation is reliable or merely a coincidence.
Despite the uncertainty of nutrition as a cause of ADHD it does play a role in the diagnosis and treatment of the disorder. Certain dietary issues, most commonly a moderate to severe protein deficiency, can cause symptoms consistent with ADHD. [citation needed] [edit]
External Factors
There is no compelling evidence that social factors, alone, can create ADHD. (However, see discussion of parental role in section below) The few environmental factors implicated fall in the realm of biohazards including alcohol, tobacco smoke, and lead poisoning. Allergies (including those to artificial additives)[21] as well as complications during pregnancy and birth--including premature birth--might also play a role. [edit]
Smoking during pregnancy
It has been observed that women who smoke while pregnant are more likely to have children with ADHD.[22]. Nicotine is known to cause hypoxia (lack of oxygen) in the uterus, which could lead to brain damage in the unborn child. Smoking could therefore play a major role in the child's development of the disorder prior to birth. [edit]
Head injuries
Head injuries may cause a person to present with ADHD-like symptoms, possibly because of damage done to the patient's frontal lobes. Because symptoms were attributable to brain damage, earliest designations for ADHD was "Minimal Brain Damage". [23]
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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RedNucleus
Causal Observer


Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 4,103
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Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5969162 - 08/16/06 11:10 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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bottom line is i think it's all about training the brain. trained or untrained to concentrate. one of the elementary school classes should be how to use your brain and think clearly and concentrate.
--------------------
Namaste
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Zen Peddler


Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: RedNucleus]
#5970658 - 08/16/06 07:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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If it were that easy i think it never would have been diagnosed as a disorder. I reckon its probably more like a phenotype of human genetics - not so much a disorder, but a phenotype that is ill equiped to deal with the modern human condition of sitting for long periods and maintaining concentration.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: RRRR]
#5971955 - 08/17/06 02:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RRRR said: They aren't "making up" anything, they have a long list of possible causes. They just aren't sure which are to be held more responsible for the disorder than others.
After writing several essays on the subject, and doing much research, I am confident it exists. It complies fully with the guidelines provided by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.
How about doing some study as to what these guidelines were based on, and who wrote them. It is quite funny. Bunch of "leading" neurophysicians and such sitting around basically marking shit off a checklist.... "hmmmm, who here thinks homosexuality is a disease?"..." the Aye's have it! now homosexuality is a disease".
Quote:
Here are some possible causes:
Possible causes
The exact cause of ADHD remains unknown, but there is no shortage of speculation concerning its etiology [10], most of which centers around the brain. The cerebellum in particular has been shown to be smaller in the brains of those with this disorder.[11] Another possible culprit is a region in the middle or medial aspect of the frontal lobe, known as the anterior cingulate cortex division.[12] The source of these differences is not yet known, but a couple of theories have been presented. [edit]
I have already addressed this issue in this thread I believe. 1) correlation does not denote cause and effect. 2) exactly how did the Modern standard model of a "normal" and "sane" human brain come to exist for which to test these "abnormalities" against?
Quote:
Hereditary dopamine deficiency
Research suggests that ADHD arises from a combination of various genes, many of which have something to do with dopamine transporters.[13] Suspect genes include the 10-repeat allele of the DAT1 gene,[14] the 7-repeat allele of the DRD4 gene,[15] and the dopamine beta hydroxylase gene (DBH TaqI).[16] Additionally, SPECT scans found people with ADHD to have reduced blood circulation,[17] and a significantly higher concentration of dopamine transporters in the striatum which is in charge of planning ahead.[18] [edit]
once again, this does not in any way denote a CAUSE. You would think people so hell bent on touting their reputations as scientists would atleast hold up the rules of scientific research and not act upon speculation through correlating events. Is there any other genetic mutation on a mass level of the population that you can think of which could manifest in under 30 years? because I hope you don't think ADD has been around for centuries.... oh, it existed, but we didn't notice it.... then wouldn't that denote something more along the lines of a mutation in society and its standards?
Quote:
Diet
It has long been suggested that ADHD could be the result of a nutritional problem. Recent studies have begun to find metabolic differences in these children, indicating that an inability to handle certain elements of one's diet might contribute to the development of ADHD, or at least ADHD-like symptoms. For example, in 1990 the English chemist, Neil Ward, [19] showed that children with ADHD lose zinc when exposed to a food dye. Some studies suggest that a lack of fatty acids, specifically omega-3 fatty acids can trigger the development of ADHD. Support for this theory comes from findings that children who are breastfed for six or more months seem to be less likely to have ADHD than their bottlefed counterparts and until very recently, infant formula did not contain any omega-3 fatty acids at all.[20] Time and futher investigation will perhaps tell whether this correlation is reliable or merely a coincidence.
I love how all of these studies that find correlations between the maternal behaviour towards children with and without ADHD and have yet to ever attempt to rationalize the possibility that these maternal behaviours are indicitive of shitty parenting in regards to our current societal standards, which IMO would be a better explanation of detachment from societal standards such as tedious and useless emphasis upon ranked intelligence (grades). Is it also not plausible that the modern toddler/teen diet consists of almost completely processed, dyed, and basically "fake" food could be the culprit? "I dont know why little Johnny won't stop bouncing off the walls after his dinner of Easy Mac and Sunkist?".
Quote:
External Factors
There is no compelling evidence that social factors, alone, can create ADHD. (However, see discussion of parental role in section below) The few environmental factors implicated fall in the realm of biohazards including alcohol, tobacco smoke, and lead poisoning. Allergies (including those to artificial additives)[21] as well as complications during pregnancy and birth--including premature birth--might also play a role. [edit]
this would almost make sense if not every single one of these biohazards had not been around atleast 3 times as long as the creation of ADHD.
Quote:
Smoking during pregnancy
It has been observed that women who smoke while pregnant are more likely to have children with ADHD.[22]. Nicotine is known to cause hypoxia (lack of oxygen) in the uterus, which could lead to brain damage in the unborn child. Smoking could therefore play a major role in the child's development of the disorder prior to birth. [edit]
Hmmm.... even in the early 1900's when almost every single persons mom smoked through their pregnancy because the dangers were not yet known this ADHD epidemic didnt arise. Now, if there is any motherly behaviour which I would find to be indicitive of "uncaring" or plain "shitty parenting", it would be not giving two shits enough about the wellfare of your child and being selfish enough to constantly indulge in smoking while pregnant. I think if a study were done to find the correlation between mothers who smoked enough during pregnancy to cause potential damage and "shitty parenting", we would find a much better statistic leading to a possible cause of ADHD.
Quote:
Head injuries
Head injuries may cause a person to present with ADHD-like symptoms, possibly because of damage done to the patient's frontal lobes. Because symptoms were attributable to brain damage, earliest designations for ADHD was "Minimal Brain Damage". [23]
This is just stupid. For this to even be plausible, 1 in 4 children in America would have to have had head trauma prior to diagnosis.
Grasping at straws..... Look, im sure life would be a lot easier if every single personal flaw we had could be blamed upon genetic disorders, but that isn't the case. I see that we are slowly moving in that direction, til one day we can sell a cure for Assholism, Mamasboyitis, and Obnoxious When Drunk syndrome.
Like I have constantly said before, it is merely a discrepency between the model of normalcy which society has set forth and the true reality of human behaviour. Is everyone supposed to be enthralled by math? is everyone supposed to be captivated by economics/history/triggonometry? is everyone supposed to have aptitude in these fields as well?
As you are raised and grow throughout your life, your perception of reality in constantly being molded, which in turn greatly affects your affinity towards certain subjects. You find a perceptual outlet which best suits you.... some people look at reality through a mathematical perception, some through a completely scientific perception, some through a religious perception... why? because at the time of adopting this perception it helped you make the most sense of everything, it was the most condusive to helping you grasp reality. This is why there can be no accurate standard of testable sanity or normalcy: either that model becomes a jack-of-all-trades type perception, like we have now, or becomes rooted/biased in one of the other thousands of possible perceptions.
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RRRR
Rapture Ready


Registered: 07/26/06
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5972359 - 08/17/06 09:30 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
Is there any other genetic mutation on a mass level of the population that you can think of which could manifest in under 30 years? because I hope you don't think ADD has been around for centuries.... oh, it existed, but we didn't notice it.... then wouldn't that denote something more along the lines of a mutation in society and its standards?
Wrong, ADD has been around for a long time, everywhere in the world. There are records dating back before hunter and gatherer societies.
Read: CDC "National Health Interview, 2002" http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_10/sr10_221.pdf (March, 2004) Olfson M, Gameroff MJ, Marcus SC, & Jensen PS. (2003). National trends in the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. American Journal of Psychiatry, 160 (6): 1071-1077
Also, there is a book titled The Edison Gene: ADHD and the Gift of the Hunter Child by Thom Hartmann and Lucy Jo Palladino. It discusses the prevalence of ADHD throughout history, around the world.
No offense, but you're knowing on the subject is a bit lacking. What sources do you even base your knowledge on?
So far, everything you've said doesn't really make sense. You sound like the conspiracy nuts who claim the government produced AIDS or is hiding the cancer cure.
Once your read those sources, I can provide you with more info on the disorder if desired.
Out of respect, I'd be more than willing to read any source you provide.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
Edited by RRRR (08/17/06 09:39 AM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: Zen Peddler]
#5972442 - 08/17/06 10:28 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
bluemeanie said: If it were that easy i think it never would have been diagnosed as a disorder. I reckon its probably more like a phenotype of human genetics - not so much a disorder, but a phenotype that is ill equiped to deal with the modern human condition of sitting for long periods and maintaining concentration.
My thoughts exactly. It's only a "disorder" because it's incompatible with the demands of modern society.
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RRRR
Rapture Ready


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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: Silversoul]
#5973347 - 08/17/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's exactly the argument made in The Edison Gene: ADHD and the Gift of the Hunter Child by Thom Hartmann and Lucy Jo Palladino. They argue that in hunter and gatherer societies, ADHD was actually beneficial for the hunter. They also cite several other cases throughout history and today where having ADHD is actually an advantage.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: Silversoul]
#5973484 - 08/17/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: My thoughts exactly. It's only a "disorder" because it's incompatible with the demands of modern society.
So if I heard voices telling me to kill, liked to have sex with animals then killed them, and ate their remains whilst covered in my own feces.........
Would you say I was "crazy" or "incompatible with the demands of modern society"?. All societies have defined "normal" behaviors (whether right or wrong). To adapt and benefit said society, you adhere to the norms.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: RRRR]
#5973608 - 08/17/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RRRR said:
Quote:
psilocyberin said:
Is there any other genetic mutation on a mass level of the population that you can think of which could manifest in under 30 years? because I hope you don't think ADD has been around for centuries.... oh, it existed, but we didn't notice it.... then wouldn't that denote something more along the lines of a mutation in society and its standards?
Wrong, ADD has been around for a long time, everywhere in the world. There are records dating back before hunter and gatherer societies.
Wrong. and.... Wrong. So, what are some sources of these records from hunter gatherer times? cave paintings? papyrus drawings? maybe they were incinerated in the Library of Alexandria? If you go to any ADHD affiliated website, you will find these two statistics. 1) 3-5% of the worlds population is afflicted with ADHD 2) 1 in 4 americans is afflicted with ADHD. Now, I hope I dont need to do the math for you here. So, I think that alone proves that there is an imbalance between the amount of americans "afflicted" with ADHD compared to the rest of the world.
If you were to do a little actual study on the history of ADHD you would find that ADHD, or even anything parallel to modern day ADHD was not "identified" until the second edition of the DSM. Even if we can say that the term "hyper-kinetic" is closely related to ADHD, that would date ADHD at around 1968, and the actual term ADHD as well as the more closely related modern diagnosis, was not out until DSM III, which would place the true birth of ADHD at 1980 (less than 30 years ago).
Quote:
Read: CDC "National Health Interview, 2002" http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_10/sr10_221.pdf (March, 2004) Olfson M, Gameroff MJ, Marcus SC, & Jensen PS. (2003). National trends in the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. American Journal of Psychiatry, 160 (6): 1071-1077
Also, there is a book titled The Edison Gene: ADHD and the Gift of the Hunter Child by Thom Hartmann and Lucy Jo Palladino. It discusses the prevalence of ADHD throughout history, around the world.
When debating a subject, your argument, is your burden of proof. I would be more than happy to read passages and excerpts from any of those sources, but to just say "These books contain my argument, read them", especially from satellite theorists, is kind of lazy, as well as doesn't really help your argument, especially when someone points that out.
Quote:
No offense, but you're knowing on the subject is a bit lacking. What sources do you even base your knowledge on?
Well, not that I am asking you to, but if you were to search this entire forum for the 20-30 or so threads where I have debated this in much more depth, you would find a copious amount of sources... you would also see that my "knowing" on the subject is, at worst, the most knowledgable and researched on this website.
Quote:
So far, everything you've said doesn't really make sense. You sound like the conspiracy nuts who claim the government produced AIDS or is hiding the cancer cure.
Ad hominems! this is where the debate gets good. This is always a good sign of a floundering argument.
Quote:
Once your read those sources, I can provide you with more info on the disorder if desired.
Like I said, the burden of proof is upon you, you cannot just cite sources and claim that the proof is there. I also highly doubt that you have read these sources, maybe a skimming or two, but if you had truly read them, I think you would have been able to supply a better argument than "these books prove you wrong... so there."
Quote:
Out of respect, I'd be more than willing to read any source you provide.
Sources really should only be used to prove that you aren't lying about statistical/factual information, and only then should they be quoted in the context of the debate.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: badchad]
#5973632 - 08/17/06 05:28 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
Silversoul said: My thoughts exactly. It's only a "disorder" because it's incompatible with the demands of modern society.
So if I heard voices telling me to kill, liked to have sex with animals then killed them, and ate their remains whilst covered in my own feces.........
Would you say I was "crazy" or "incompatible with the demands of modern society"?. All societies have defined "normal" behaviors (whether right or wrong). To adapt and benefit said society, you adhere to the norms.
I think we can both agree that if we were able to produce a model of accurate human sanity, the above behaviour would not be compatible with it. No where in the recorded and verifiable history of human existence have we found that to be a prevailing behaviour. On the other hand, if there were such a society where beastiality and scat were socially acceptable.... well, in other words, OTD, it would not be deemed insane. To ask that question in the context of american societal norms, yes it is verifiably crazy. But this raises another question: what is the dividing point between an abberation of societal norms and the acceptance of such? Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any other symptom, or American societal taboo in which a quarter of the american population commits or is afflicted by. I openly welcome any counter to that claim though.
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RRRR
Rapture Ready


Registered: 07/26/06
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5974116 - 08/17/06 07:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
Like I said, the burden of proof is upon you, you cannot just cite sources and claim that the proof is there.
Wrong, to date ADHD is classified as a disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. My beliefs are already legislated as fact. My only purpose of even debating this is out of sheer boredom, since I have nothing to prove. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, because those who are responsible for legal legislation are in the same paradigm of thought as myself.
I have no objection, I am perfectly content. Whatever you think has no bearing on reality. What is stands as what is, thus the burden of proof lays in your hands my friend. I can guarantee you ADHD will not be removed from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ever, so I have no worries 
One of the main things that led me to believe ADHD is in fact real is a reading on the study that shows that The posterior inferior vermis of the cerebellum is smaller in ADHD. I really am not sure what article provided that information though, I think it might have been Frontline. I'll try to look it up for ya when I get off work.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: RRRR]
#5974188 - 08/17/06 08:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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im not trying to get ADHD removed from the DSM. IMO, the DSM is full of bullshit entries. What I am trying to do is raise awareness about it, which I feel I have done on this message board. Where as my very first thread about psych,depression,ADHD, and psych meds was met with 100% dissent... in my most recent threads I see a little bit more than 50% dissent... I doubt i am the sole cause of this, but I like to think I have created doubt in a few peoples minds with regards to the safety and competence of the psychiatric industry.
No, you don't have to show proof, just like you didn't have to post in this thread, but when you enter into a debate with someone, then yes, you have the burden of proof, otherwise you look like Pee Wee Herman saying "I know you are but what am I?". I also have spent countless hours typing up very long statements which I feel have proved on many occasions that ADHD (and other "diseases") do not stem from genetic or physiological abnormalities.
Im not trying to make myself out to be a martyr, but do you think it is fun doing this? You are probably the 50th person on this website that I have debated in regards to this issue. I see a true injustice being done to the American people through misinformation, and I feel it is my duty to make people aware of it. The only thing I have attempted to do is shine some light upon this subject and present an alternative viewpoint, and i am met with such rabid objections, attacks, and accusations upon my character that you would think I am doing something far more malicious than spreading awareness.
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5974236 - 08/17/06 08:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
But this raises another question: what is the dividing point between an abberation of societal norms and the acceptance of such? Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any other symptom, or American societal taboo in which a quarter of the american population commits or is afflicted by. I openly welcome any counter to that claim though.
How about oral sex? or premarital sex? One might make the argument that according to the "religious zealots" standards/norms, these behaviors are abnormal.
And I think this is the debateable issue. Should ADHD be a "disorder" and how does any particular society define "normal"? (as your quote suggests).
In addition, I haven't seen a source citing an ADHD prevalence of 25%.
ADD.org says 6% http://www.add.org/articles/factsheet.html
A more reliable source from the national institute of mental health says 3-5% http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhd.cfm
and craptacular wikipedia says 3-5% as well. (I don't have access to peer reviewed professional journals from pubmed as I am at home currently). Thus, the occurence is fairly low.
So with those prevalence rates, we could assume 2-3 kids in a classroom of 30 may be diagnosed with ADHD. IMO this sounds "reasonable". Were you to somehow look at historical records, I would think this has always been the case. For example, in the 1800's, you may find the same 2-3 "problem children" in a class of 30 (assuming a class size that large). Thus, you may reasonably make the argument that ADHD is not a "new" disorder/condition, but rather, it hasn't been diagnosed until more formal guidelines for diagnosis were established.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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SneezingPenis
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: badchad]
#5974492 - 08/17/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Let me preface this with an apology. I have gotten my facts mixed up. 1 in 4 americans have a mental disorder.. that was the highest, and 18.1 percent was the lowest for that figure.
Quote:
# ADHD is the most common psychiatric condition affecting children, estimates in prevalence in childhood range from 5 - 10%. (Clinical Pediatrics) # As many as 50% of children with ADHD are never diagnosed. (Harvard Mental Health Letter)
http://www.nmha.org/children/prevent/stats.cfm
Quote:
*The number of preschool children being treated with medication for ADHD tripled between 1990 and 1995.
*The number of children ages 15 to 19 taking medication for ADHD has increased by 311 percent over 15 years.
*The use of medication to treat children between the ages of 5 and 14 also increased by approximately 170 percent.
*White, suburban elementary children are given medication to treat ADHD at more than twice the rate of African American students.
*Methylphenidate (commonly known as Ritalin) is manufactured at two and a half times the rate of a decade ago.
*The majority of children and adolescents who receive stimulants for ADHD do not fully meet the criteria for ADHD.
*Many children who do meet the criteria for ADHD are not being treated.
*About 80 percent of the 11 million prescriptions written for methylphenidate (Ritalin is the brand name) each year are written for children.
http://www.education-world.com/a_issues/issues148a.shtml
here is the good one though. IMO, the most reliable source, the Center for Disease Control and Prevention...
Quote:
According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), 7.8% of American Children are diagnosed with ADHD and 4.3% of children are taking medication for this disorder.
why is there no definitive statistical information regarding the percentage of people diagnosed with ADHD? Why can I find a figure ranging from 3% to 10%? Seems that if this is such a problem, to the point to warrant giving children schedule 2 drugs, don't you think there should be some serious census work on this?
the so called diagnostic symptoms of ADHD revolve mainly around school function. I think the rise in diagnosis of ADHD in children is quite parallel to the rise in strictness and rigor in our education system. Ever listen to the way your parents described High School? smoking cigs on campus, an almost come and go as you please attitude.
I think the increased rigidness of school life as well as the obvious increase of stress in schools has made this "problem" stick out and seem like some lack-of-attention epidemic.
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guri
Master of theimprobablitydrive

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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5992514 - 08/24/06 12:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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my question does it really matter if adhd exists as a chemical imbalance or brain abonormalty or whatever? Lets say it appears that a person cant focus for more then a minute at a time. Then they are given medication such as adderal, and all of a sudden they are a far better student in class and always paying attention and ABSORBING what the teacher said and not just hearing it as back ground chatter. Just because you dont know what is the cause doesnt mean you shouldnt try to fix the symptom
-------------------- "If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks
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SneezingPenis
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: guri]
#5992783 - 08/24/06 02:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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1) we are fixing problems which society has created. This isnt a human problem, or malfunction, it is a discrepency between the demand of interest in all studies, the emphasis upon grades. How do we measure success of a drug in regards to ADHD? well.... their grades went up! so the problem wasn't really one of "focusing" but rather one of low grades, and these grades are supposed to represent a model of normal human learning capabilities, which is completely idiotic, because there is no definitive, or even possible, model of normal human concentration, understand, grasping of reality and its subjects.
2) what if marijuana helps increase grades? what if a good diet helps as much as these quick fix drugs? Dont you see that if there is an alternative to not use amphetamines in 7 year olds that we should exhaust all possibilities.... also, this isn't that big of a deal, it is grades we are talking about. Where are the studies which show long term retention of data with adderall use? Why don't we just inject kids with heroin and see if that cures this "concentration" problem? how about turning off the fucking television once and a while and sitting down with your kids, going on a walk, stop giving them candy.
Like I have said before, the problem isnt one of physiology or genetics, it is one of poor parenting, compunded by a horrible society.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#6017652 - 09/01/06 08:01 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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"This is just stupid. For this to even be plausible, 1 in 4 children in America would have to have had head trauma prior to diagnosis.
Grasping at straws..... Look, im sure life would be a lot easier if every single personal flaw we had could be blamed upon genetic disorders, but that isn't the case. I see that we are slowly moving in that direction, til one day we can sell a cure for Assholism, Mamasboyitis, and Obnoxious When Drunk syndrome.
Maybe ADHD is what happens when you touch a baby's soft spot. 
I view these drugs as performance enhancing drugs just like steroids. Should we be giving steroids to the weaker kids who have a "hormone deficiency"?
Maybe.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: badchad]
#6017677 - 09/01/06 08:13 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: To adapt and benefit said society, you adhere to the norms.
What if an individual is superior to said society? Should the individual adapt, or should the society adapt to them?
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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Sinthetic
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#6017735 - 09/01/06 08:36 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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Isn't it funny how questioning authority can make some people angry to the point of slinging insults like children?
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Corporal Kielbasa

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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#6024588 - 09/03/06 10:42 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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ADD/adhd = conversion insufficiency look it up. Check out a vision doctor. Most kids that have adhd actually have conversion insufficiency. It is curable by simple eye exercises. But then how will pharmacutical buisness make there money........after all pills can fix everything!!!!!
makes me sick
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OneWhoHasSeen
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#6029110 - 09/04/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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Firstly, I would like to say that I am very happy a thread like this exists on the Shroomery. I am currently at a crossroads, I have battled what I "believe" to be AD/HD my entire life, and I feel like I am loosing. Thus, I am now turning to all of my friends and family for the answers I can't produce myself. I have read the arguments presented on this post, and have yet to come to a decision. Is medication my only resort, or can I somehow win an internal battle I have been loosing for as long as I can remember?
This post might be rather long, and I would also like to apologize in advance for the way it is written. My mind tends to race, and as such my thoughts and words jump from one thing to another and then back again in rapid succession. I have difficulty being coherent, as my writing professors are constantly reminding me.
As I read, I can see both sides of this argument. Although I lack the focus to do hardly any amount of research on this on my own, I am glad to see other have done it. I wont be quoting any sources, as the only source I currently have are the replies in this thread and my own opinions.
Firstly, I completely agree that AD/HD has existed for a very long time. It is easy for me to see why my issue would have exceptional advantages in a hunter/gatherer society. I have an enormous amount of energy, I have to constantly be doing something. Since my thoughts are always racing from one subject to the next, I consider a huge variety of plausible situations and thus am able to prepare for them well. With more simple tasks, such as building fire, shelter, hunting, gathering, tool use, etc. I feel someone with my condition (if it is a condition, still haven’t made up my mind) would have a great advantage.
Also, I agree that correlation does NOT prove a biological effect exists, to IGNORE these correlations is foolish, as they DO exist for SOME reason. Especially in light that all scientific study is based on indirect information, as a lot of the phenomena in our universe can not be directly observed (basic scientific theory), you must make hypothesis based on indirect observations that fit all logical criteria. The simple fact is, AD/HD will never be DEFENITIVLY proved OR disproved, which is the case with most things.
However, I also agree that the current focus on AD/HD is not a problem with those who have it, but our current society. Especially in my current situation in college, there are no "simple" tasks anymore. Having to memorize huge amounts of details, etc. is incredibly difficult for me. Not because I am not intelligent, because I know I am. In fact, I have noticed that my ability to process information tends to be a good bit faster then many of my fellow students. However, my problem has never been with my ABILITY to learn, but rather on focusing that ability and making it work for me.
Also, psilocyberin, I agree with you that AD/HD is probably way over-diagnosed in America, especially because American’s tend to look for quick fixes for every-day problems. However, you yourself admitted that 3-5% of the world is believed to be reasonably affected by this, whether biological or psychological. Despite that number probably being lower then the diagnosis rate here in America, that doesn’t mean that some individuals, perhaps like me, do really require help that can’t be a simple “mind over matter” solution. I feel this because as I listen and participate in conversations with my fellow students, none of them are having the level of difficulty in these areas that I myself am having?
I also agree that giving children medication is probably a bad idea. It might just be a stage in their development, or something they will grow out of in adulthood. But what about people like me, adults who have had this problem since they could remember and still have the issue, despite the chaotic adolescent times being over? Doesn’t that support the idea that this may be an issue that is inherent in some peoples brains? Wether it was biological or created by societal or external stimuli, IE being “wired that way”, does that make it any less of an issue if we can’t overcome this by “mind over matter” alone”?
I tend to do better in lectures. When a teacher is pacing back and forth, using gestures, emphatically using their voice, being excited about their subject, my mind tends to be better able to focus on their words. However, as SOON as there is a lapse in this, however small, my mind instantly wonders. The sad thing is I have NO control over it. I SNAP back to reality and realize I have been absently daydreaming for the past fifteen minutes and have missed a quarter of the lecture. I don't even realize it has happened until it is over.
This problem is magnified when it comes to my hated enemy, textbooks. With literature, novels and stories with plotlines, action, characters, all developed to hold your attention, I tend to have a moderate amount of success. However, textbooks, although sometimes designed to try and hold your attention, are usually written to get across a large amount of information to you. For the first 20 minutes of reading a textbook (about a third of a reading assignment for ONE class), it only requires a moderate amount of willpower to maintain focus. Ever had that thing were your eyes still move across a page and yet your mind is somewhere else so you do not absorb a single word of it? Well, as I said the first 20 minutes I normally catch my wondering in time and I have only missed a paragraph or two, so I go back and read it. Now, after those 20 minutes I find that my mind begins to wonder more and more, the amount of willpower required to focus on the words in the book becomes exponentially larger. Between 30 to 45 minutes of reading (about 1/2 to 3/4s the reading assignment for one class) I begin to miss entire pages, as I am daydreaming for minutes at a time. I am CONSTANTLY having to go back and re-read page after page. Now I am forcing with all my might to keep my focus, but its slipping away. My head begins to hurt with the effort of it all, and I am forced to give up. Sometimes I am able to finish the reading assignment, but most of the time I don't. When I have four classes and a limited amount of time to study, you can see the magnitude of my problem.
But this doesn't just stop with academics, it has an effect on every part of my life. In my social life, I have problems listening to anyone. They begin to speak, "you know the other day..." and I try to listen, but without even thinking about it my mind wonders. Then I hear "So what do you think?" and realize I have missed the entire conversation. I also tend to "butt in" to conversations all the time, because I know if I don't get a thought out of my head RIGHT THEN my mind will move on to the next thing and that thought will be lost. Most people think this is me being rude, but if you knew me you would know that I am a very polite person, and that being considerate is one of my highest priorities. However, I lack the ability to follow through with my conviction.
My house is covered with piles of stuff. I lay something down for a second, meaning to put it away, but then my mind moves on to the next thing and it gets forgotten. The same happens with cleaning the house, I normally can get through ONE chore, IE cleaning the dishes, before my focus and thus my motivation wonders and I move on to other things. Thus, my home is in a constant state of disarray. I have an exceptional amount of difficulty taking regular showers, brushing my teeth, eating meals. Stuff that regular people take for granted I have exceptional difficulty. I MEAN to do these things, but before I even start them my mind wonders to something else and it is forgotten.
Ack, my mind is wondering right now, its getting harder and harder to continue.
My daydreams are also not consistent. I will think of one thing this moment and the other thing the next. Sometimes I will think of something completely unimportant, then switch to some important task I need to do later, then that task is forgotten as I move on to the next subject. Its not that some situation is drawing my thoughts, there is no consistency to it.
I can't multitask AT ALL. I have trouble maintaining one line of thought, how the hell am I supposed to do more then that simultaneously? And that it what modern life is all about.
This all causes a HUGE amount of frustration in me. I know I am an intelligent person, I want to do so many things with my life. But I have so many unfinished projects. If I am LUCKY I start to do it (but, of course, NEVER finish), but most of the time my mind wonders even before I can start to do something.
I am a contortionist in my seat. I have to be CONSTANTLY moving. I am beating up and down, rocking back and forth, I am NEVER still. I’m dancing to some music that is always in my mind but never lets me relax. Actually, I need to get up and move around now, hopefully I can re-order my thoughts and get myself back on focus. This is about 15-20 minutes into my writing...
In my early grade years, I was constantly failing all my classes. F's were regular for me. Then my mom took me to a doctor and they put me on Riddlin. My grades instantly shot up to almost all A's, but I noticed I was getting something I can only describe as a heart murmur. They scared me, so I stopped taking the drugs. For the rest of my school, my grades struggled to maintain over a C. I tried taking an AP course in 9th that I knew my intellect could handle, but I almost failed because I had no ability to do my schoolwork.
Its not like I haven’t tried so many things to beat this thing. I have tried using pure willpower to focus myself, and it might work for a little while but soon my focus becomes too difficult for my willpower to handle, and I falter. I have tried meditation and yoga, but find my mind wonders off of it as soon as I start. Its supposed to help me concentrate, but how the fuck is it going to help me if I can’t concentrate enough to do it in the first place. Granted, I haven’t actually taken a class or done sessions on these yet, but the point is till valid.
OK, I think it is time to sum up because I just can't go for any longer. I am SO FRUSTRATED I want to rip holes in the wall and beat my fists into a bloody pulp. I am torn into two pieces, one side knows I am incredibly intelligent and that I can do ANYTHING I put my mind to, but I just can't fucking put my mind to anything. I have already dropped out of college once because of this, now I am trying again and fear I am going to loose.
I know its a problem with modern society, with sciences as they are things are no longer simple like in the “old days”. You are required to heavily specialize in one field, with heavy math, philosophical and scientific theory, or just plain memorization of details involved, mental challenges that require lots of focus. But I HAVE TO FACE REALITY. YES society should change, but it ISN'T CHANGING. Perhaps after years of meditation and yoga with an excellent mentor I may gain some control over this, but that doesn't help me NOW. If I drop out this second time, I know I will never be going back. I WANT to graduate, but I can see it slipping through my fingers with every passing moment. The chaos that exists within me is taking over, and I will be forced to give up what I wanted to do and resign my life to mediocrity. I have sometimes tried to face the reality that college may not be for me, but I am not willing to give up yet.
I'm in a corner, I have tried to change who I am. I have tried "mind over matter" but I know I am loosing. I NEVER wanted to ever get into a physically addicting drug, but I am loosing options fast. At first pot helped. It gave my mind peace were I never had it before, I was able to relax and stop the racing that had always taken over my mind. But although it helped me INTERNALLY, it was hurting me EXTERNALLY. It just sapped my willpower to do anything, and really hurt my ability to focus despite the fact it gave me peace. I liked it because it was only mentally addicting, because I could give it up without physical withdrawal, but it wasn't helping me achieve the goals I had in life.
God, I have lost were I am going with this. Can anyone help me shed light on this? OR if not, has anyone ever taken Adderol on a longer term basis for AD/HD and could tell me the effects? In what ways did it help and in what ways did it hurt? What were the side effects like? What was withdrawal like (since I plan on leaving it after I am out of college), and could you return back to normal? Did it change who YOU were?
Thanks everyone for your patience and help. I know this was long, and my thoughts not very concise. My mind HASN’T been made up one way or the other, and I need your help to make my decision. I am crying at the desperation I feel in my soul, but I feel some measure of hope that there are some people out here willing to help and understand.
-------------------- A Temporal Anomaly
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
#6030159 - 09/04/06 11:29 PM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
OneWhoHasSeen said:
Also, I agree that correlation does NOT prove a biological effect exists, to IGNORE these correlations is foolish, as they DO exist for SOME reason. Especially in light that all scientific study is based on indirect information, as a lot of the phenomena in our universe can not be directly observed (basic scientific theory), you must make hypothesis based on indirect observations that fit all logical criteria. The simple fact is, AD/HD will never be DEFENITIVLY proved OR disproved, which is the case with most things.
To start off, I am glad you read the entire thread before responsing, and I am doubly glad that in some way this thread has served its purpose: delivering an alternative viewpoint.
but... you cannot disprove something that does not exist.
Quote:
Also, psilocyberin, I agree with you that AD/HD is probably way over-diagnosed in America, especially because American’s tend to look for quick fixes for every-day problems. However, you yourself admitted that 3-5% of the world is believed to be reasonably affected by this, whether biological or psychological. Despite that number probably being lower then the diagnosis rate here in America, that doesn’t mean that some individuals, perhaps like me, do really require help that can’t be a simple “mind over matter” solution. I feel this because as I listen and participate in conversations with my fellow students, none of them are having the level of difficulty in these areas that I myself am having?
this brings up something I have wanted to talk about for a while...
now, as a certain society progresses technologically, so does its learning curve. I mean, imagine when we fully grasp and integrate parts of M theory into our technology, they will be teaching Quantum Mechanics in high school. But as the society develops, so does the amount of information and subjects which we find valid for intellectual consumption. These subjects and information (such as economics) are alien to an organism which is primarily equipped to only learn how to survive: learning how to communicate, learning what not to eat etc. So, outside of sub-instinctual actions/lessons why do we expect children to know how to learn the illusory by-products of a technologically advanced society? There is no real model for learning in America, sure there are thousands of models for teaching, but it reminds me of the one useless one day class labelled something like "behavioral sciences" which was a feeble attempt at teaching kids how to study: eat a good breakfast, get in a quiet place, get 8 hours of sleep.... you have all heard it before... and sure, that is somewhat of a framework for "how to study" but not really "how to grasp" or "how to learn"..... otherwise it becomes "memorization" and not "retention of data".... repetitive mnemonics instead of real understanding of the subject at hand. In america, we put so much weight on a test, and really no weight upon retention of data... even the ACT/SAT's are heavily crammed for, even though they are supposed to be a guage of how much retention you have had throughout your years in school. have you ever asked yourself, or analyzed how you learn, or were you always under the assumption that if you read something it should be complete understanding? dont you think there is a certain process with which you retain that information?
I also would like to add, that it seems you have had no problem understanding all the posts in this thread.
Quote:
I tend to do better in lectures. When a teacher is pacing back and forth, using gestures, emphatically using their voice, being excited about their subject, my mind tends to be better able to focus on their words. However, as SOON as there is a lapse in this, however small, my mind instantly wonders. The sad thing is I have NO control over it. I SNAP back to reality and realize I have been absently daydreaming for the past fifteen minutes and have missed a quarter of the lecture. I don't even realize it has happened until it is over.
This problem is magnified when it comes to my hated enemy, textbooks. With literature, novels and stories with plotlines, action, characters, all developed to hold your attention, I tend to have a moderate amount of success. However, textbooks, although sometimes designed to try and hold your attention, are usually written to get across a large amount of information to you. For the first 20 minutes of reading a textbook (about a third of a reading assignment for ONE class), it only requires a moderate amount of willpower to maintain focus. Ever had that thing were your eyes still move across a page and yet your mind is somewhere else so you do not absorb a single word of it? Well, as I said the first 20 minutes I normally catch my wondering in time and I have only missed a paragraph or two, so I go back and read it. Now, after those 20 minutes I find that my mind begins to wonder more and more, the amount of willpower required to focus on the words in the book becomes exponentially larger. Between 30 to 45 minutes of reading (about 1/2 to 3/4s the reading assignment for one class) I begin to miss entire pages, as I am daydreaming for minutes at a time. I am CONSTANTLY having to go back and re-read page after page. Now I am forcing with all my might to keep my focus, but its slipping away. My head begins to hurt with the effort of it all, and I am forced to give up. Sometimes I am able to finish the reading assignment, but most of the time I don't. When I have four classes and a limited amount of time to study, you can see the magnitude of my problem.
I dont consider this as a direct answer to this, but in some thread I explained to Leeryfan a method I use to combat that exact thing. it deals with misunderstood words: if you dont understand a certain word, you cant always fully grasp the sentence, and if you dont get the sentence, it may mess up full comprehension of a paragraph, and that paragraph to a page, from the page to the chapter... all from one word. Isnt it funny how you can read over what you just zoned out on, and it is vaguely familiar, and sometimes tough to find the spot before you zoned out? Im willing to bet that if you backtrack to find a word that you just dont understand, the paragraph before that should be grasped.
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Silverwolf
sandtrout


Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 1,108
Loc: Darkover
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#6039215 - 09/07/06 05:41 PM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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Anyone treating AD/HD who doesn't think the condition is environmental toxin and poor nutrition related is not a good doctor (in my opinion). Check out the work of British doctor Vyvyan Howard on the dangers of environmental pollution if you can.
-------------------- "Odrade read the word silently and then aloud. "Arafel." She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources. "Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""
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Anno
Experimenter



Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,166
Loc: my room
Last seen: 20 days, 19 hours
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: Silverwolf]
#6059690 - 09/14/06 02:37 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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I am going to unstick this topic.
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GreenAssHands
Study Science


Registered: 11/01/06
Posts: 160
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: Silverwolf]
#6554082 - 02/11/07 01:13 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't like the idea of ADD/ADHD, just filling a childs head with the thought that there is something inside there body that is "imbalanced" called ADD/ADHD turns them into a fucking robot. they are lead to believe from a young age that this acronym is a part of them. I've seen the way kids react on and off of there amphetamines in the public school systems. its a sad thing to see how hooked these kids are without thinking anything of it.
Difference, except everyone and every body
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rubixcubies
porch monkey ferlyfe


Registered: 08/05/06
Posts: 1,218
Loc: ottawa on
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: GreenAssHands]
#6554448 - 02/11/07 03:15 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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well for me i see adhd as the natural condition for life ever watch any non domesticated animals theyre ADD-ing the fuck out whats that sound is it a threat is that food running around having fun and what not. and i "have ADHD" (if it were real) so thats my thing i see.
-------------------- i'm a very evolved ape you know.
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demiu5
humans, lol


Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: GreenAssHands]
#6554812 - 02/11/07 05:06 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
phillipj said: I don't like the idea of ADD/ADHD, just filling a childs head with the thought that there is something inside there body that is "imbalanced" called ADD/ADHD turns them into a fucking robot. they are lead to believe from a young age that this acronym is a part of them. I've seen the way kids react on and off of there amphetamines in the public school systems. its a sad thing to see how hooked these kids are without thinking anything of it.
Difference, except everyone and every body
that or, if they know they have it, they destroy things or are intentionally lazy because 9 times out of 10 they know they can get away with it by blaming it on their "condition"
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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Spire
Mycophagous

Registered: 09/05/06
Posts: 314
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: demiu5]
#6557364 - 02/12/07 08:07 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Im hearing from some people that some of what he said and the contacts he made were from all the way back in the mid-90's. Kinda outdated?
-------------------- Old Member, New Name. One makes "good luck". With the ability to recognize a good opportunity. Then, to exploit it. -SixTango/Agar
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: Spire]
#6557867 - 02/12/07 12:00 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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????
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beforeIgetold
Stranger

Registered: 10/10/13
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#28313562 - 05/10/23 12:49 AM (8 months, 16 days ago) |
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In order to approach this subject with sense and rationality, it's important to also update and refute postulations as science evolves and we become more knowledgable about neurodivergency.
As such, by 2023, we have in fact now 27 DNA markers that is thought to be associated with developing ADHD of any type.
So not only can we now say, that "yes, adhd is provable and true", we also now more about what ADHD is and how it works or what limitations it presents to those of us who are challenged by it on an every day basis.
ADHD is not an attention deficite illness, it's a performance illness.
One of the best analogies I've heard so far, is try to imagine you are a librarian in a huge library. But all the books are stored randomly... not by letter or section.
Yes, you might have specific topics that are ordered in "blocks", allowing faster more efficient access, but it's not generally the case. Also those blocks tend to be much more effeciently accessible in a neuro divergent "library" than they would be in a neurotypical "library".
In relation to the effects of psychedelics on the adhd mind, you cannot generalize and say it's good or bad to do psychedelics. Nor in regards to weaning of medication before doing a journey.
If you are pre-dispositioned to psychotic episodes or suffer from co-morbid bi-polarity, psychedelics are most likely not for you. NOTE: Even having 1st link relatives that suffer from mental issues is enough to say you might be pre-disposed yourself. Don't do it...
If you don't suffer from those, then it's up to you to make a judgement call.
I've seen questions that ask about how psilocybin / psilocin works in relation to adhd.
Based on current research, serotonin does NOT play a role in regards to the way the brain works in adhd people. Studies show that there was NO difference in serotonin expression and activity in the brain between neurotypicals and adhd diagnosed individuals. None...
Psilocybin is not the active drug in mushrooms. It's what we call a "pro-drug". This pro-drug gets disassembled in the gut and is turned into psilocin. Psilocin is what is having effect.
5ht is the designation of serotonin. There are various types of serotonin receptors. Psilocin is a 5ht-2a receptor agonist. Chemically it greatly resembles serotonin and therefore can act in it's place.
These receptors are present to a great extent in the neo-cortex, and especially in the visual part of the brain. This explains why psilocin causes visual hallucinations with both open and closed eyes. Your visuals brain cells are firing like crazy (good crazy )
Most adhd medicin is not an SSRI. (please look up your own perscribe drug... fx by searching for "yourdrugname receptor affinity". Most adhd drugs are targetting specific D (dopamine) receptors. While serotonin is involved in the greater scheme of things, adhd medicin, does not specifically target and bind to serotonin receptors. But the effect on the dopamine receptors, can have a drip down effect on serotonin in other relations.
So in short, mushrooms do not directly effect the adhd related part of brain cells. But can have a drip down effect.
Also, it is your own responsibility to:
1. Recognise and accept your own biological challenges and potential pre-dispositions. 2. NOT generalize medicine or psychedelics... as in; "This doesn't work for me specifically, therefore it must be bad in an absolute way!" 3. Accept that other people might in fact benefit from something that would otherwise have a negative effect on your system / brain... again, that does not make the substance generally bad.
Be safe and take pre-cautions. Make peace with yourself and your significant others before going on the journey. And use the journey in a rational / NON-"take it at facevalue" kind of way. Process what you experienced afterwards.
Edited by beforeIgetold (05/10/23 12:55 AM)
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