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RRRR
Rapture Ready


Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 170
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5972359 - 08/17/06 09:30 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
Is there any other genetic mutation on a mass level of the population that you can think of which could manifest in under 30 years? because I hope you don't think ADD has been around for centuries.... oh, it existed, but we didn't notice it.... then wouldn't that denote something more along the lines of a mutation in society and its standards?
Wrong, ADD has been around for a long time, everywhere in the world. There are records dating back before hunter and gatherer societies.
Read: CDC "National Health Interview, 2002" http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_10/sr10_221.pdf (March, 2004) Olfson M, Gameroff MJ, Marcus SC, & Jensen PS. (2003). National trends in the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. American Journal of Psychiatry, 160 (6): 1071-1077
Also, there is a book titled The Edison Gene: ADHD and the Gift of the Hunter Child by Thom Hartmann and Lucy Jo Palladino. It discusses the prevalence of ADHD throughout history, around the world.
No offense, but you're knowing on the subject is a bit lacking. What sources do you even base your knowledge on?
So far, everything you've said doesn't really make sense. You sound like the conspiracy nuts who claim the government produced AIDS or is hiding the cancer cure.
Once your read those sources, I can provide you with more info on the disorder if desired.
Out of respect, I'd be more than willing to read any source you provide.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
Edited by RRRR (08/17/06 09:39 AM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: Zen Peddler]
#5972442 - 08/17/06 10:28 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
bluemeanie said: If it were that easy i think it never would have been diagnosed as a disorder. I reckon its probably more like a phenotype of human genetics - not so much a disorder, but a phenotype that is ill equiped to deal with the modern human condition of sitting for long periods and maintaining concentration.
My thoughts exactly. It's only a "disorder" because it's incompatible with the demands of modern society.
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RRRR
Rapture Ready


Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 170
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: Silversoul]
#5973347 - 08/17/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's exactly the argument made in The Edison Gene: ADHD and the Gift of the Hunter Child by Thom Hartmann and Lucy Jo Palladino. They argue that in hunter and gatherer societies, ADHD was actually beneficial for the hunter. They also cite several other cases throughout history and today where having ADHD is actually an advantage.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: Silversoul]
#5973484 - 08/17/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Silversoul said: My thoughts exactly. It's only a "disorder" because it's incompatible with the demands of modern society.
So if I heard voices telling me to kill, liked to have sex with animals then killed them, and ate their remains whilst covered in my own feces.........
Would you say I was "crazy" or "incompatible with the demands of modern society"?. All societies have defined "normal" behaviors (whether right or wrong). To adapt and benefit said society, you adhere to the norms.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: RRRR]
#5973608 - 08/17/06 05:18 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
RRRR said:
Quote:
psilocyberin said:
Is there any other genetic mutation on a mass level of the population that you can think of which could manifest in under 30 years? because I hope you don't think ADD has been around for centuries.... oh, it existed, but we didn't notice it.... then wouldn't that denote something more along the lines of a mutation in society and its standards?
Wrong, ADD has been around for a long time, everywhere in the world. There are records dating back before hunter and gatherer societies.
Wrong. and.... Wrong. So, what are some sources of these records from hunter gatherer times? cave paintings? papyrus drawings? maybe they were incinerated in the Library of Alexandria? If you go to any ADHD affiliated website, you will find these two statistics. 1) 3-5% of the worlds population is afflicted with ADHD 2) 1 in 4 americans is afflicted with ADHD. Now, I hope I dont need to do the math for you here. So, I think that alone proves that there is an imbalance between the amount of americans "afflicted" with ADHD compared to the rest of the world.
If you were to do a little actual study on the history of ADHD you would find that ADHD, or even anything parallel to modern day ADHD was not "identified" until the second edition of the DSM. Even if we can say that the term "hyper-kinetic" is closely related to ADHD, that would date ADHD at around 1968, and the actual term ADHD as well as the more closely related modern diagnosis, was not out until DSM III, which would place the true birth of ADHD at 1980 (less than 30 years ago).
Quote:
Read: CDC "National Health Interview, 2002" http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_10/sr10_221.pdf (March, 2004) Olfson M, Gameroff MJ, Marcus SC, & Jensen PS. (2003). National trends in the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. American Journal of Psychiatry, 160 (6): 1071-1077
Also, there is a book titled The Edison Gene: ADHD and the Gift of the Hunter Child by Thom Hartmann and Lucy Jo Palladino. It discusses the prevalence of ADHD throughout history, around the world.
When debating a subject, your argument, is your burden of proof. I would be more than happy to read passages and excerpts from any of those sources, but to just say "These books contain my argument, read them", especially from satellite theorists, is kind of lazy, as well as doesn't really help your argument, especially when someone points that out.
Quote:
No offense, but you're knowing on the subject is a bit lacking. What sources do you even base your knowledge on?
Well, not that I am asking you to, but if you were to search this entire forum for the 20-30 or so threads where I have debated this in much more depth, you would find a copious amount of sources... you would also see that my "knowing" on the subject is, at worst, the most knowledgable and researched on this website.
Quote:
So far, everything you've said doesn't really make sense. You sound like the conspiracy nuts who claim the government produced AIDS or is hiding the cancer cure.
Ad hominems! this is where the debate gets good. This is always a good sign of a floundering argument.
Quote:
Once your read those sources, I can provide you with more info on the disorder if desired.
Like I said, the burden of proof is upon you, you cannot just cite sources and claim that the proof is there. I also highly doubt that you have read these sources, maybe a skimming or two, but if you had truly read them, I think you would have been able to supply a better argument than "these books prove you wrong... so there."
Quote:
Out of respect, I'd be more than willing to read any source you provide.
Sources really should only be used to prove that you aren't lying about statistical/factual information, and only then should they be quoted in the context of the debate.
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: badchad]
#5973632 - 08/17/06 05:28 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
Silversoul said: My thoughts exactly. It's only a "disorder" because it's incompatible with the demands of modern society.
So if I heard voices telling me to kill, liked to have sex with animals then killed them, and ate their remains whilst covered in my own feces.........
Would you say I was "crazy" or "incompatible with the demands of modern society"?. All societies have defined "normal" behaviors (whether right or wrong). To adapt and benefit said society, you adhere to the norms.
I think we can both agree that if we were able to produce a model of accurate human sanity, the above behaviour would not be compatible with it. No where in the recorded and verifiable history of human existence have we found that to be a prevailing behaviour. On the other hand, if there were such a society where beastiality and scat were socially acceptable.... well, in other words, OTD, it would not be deemed insane. To ask that question in the context of american societal norms, yes it is verifiably crazy. But this raises another question: what is the dividing point between an abberation of societal norms and the acceptance of such? Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any other symptom, or American societal taboo in which a quarter of the american population commits or is afflicted by. I openly welcome any counter to that claim though.
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RRRR
Rapture Ready


Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 170
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5974116 - 08/17/06 07:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
Like I said, the burden of proof is upon you, you cannot just cite sources and claim that the proof is there.
Wrong, to date ADHD is classified as a disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. My beliefs are already legislated as fact. My only purpose of even debating this is out of sheer boredom, since I have nothing to prove. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, because those who are responsible for legal legislation are in the same paradigm of thought as myself.
I have no objection, I am perfectly content. Whatever you think has no bearing on reality. What is stands as what is, thus the burden of proof lays in your hands my friend. I can guarantee you ADHD will not be removed from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, ever, so I have no worries 
One of the main things that led me to believe ADHD is in fact real is a reading on the study that shows that The posterior inferior vermis of the cerebellum is smaller in ADHD. I really am not sure what article provided that information though, I think it might have been Frontline. I'll try to look it up for ya when I get off work.
-------------------- Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: RRRR]
#5974188 - 08/17/06 08:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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im not trying to get ADHD removed from the DSM. IMO, the DSM is full of bullshit entries. What I am trying to do is raise awareness about it, which I feel I have done on this message board. Where as my very first thread about psych,depression,ADHD, and psych meds was met with 100% dissent... in my most recent threads I see a little bit more than 50% dissent... I doubt i am the sole cause of this, but I like to think I have created doubt in a few peoples minds with regards to the safety and competence of the psychiatric industry.
No, you don't have to show proof, just like you didn't have to post in this thread, but when you enter into a debate with someone, then yes, you have the burden of proof, otherwise you look like Pee Wee Herman saying "I know you are but what am I?". I also have spent countless hours typing up very long statements which I feel have proved on many occasions that ADHD (and other "diseases") do not stem from genetic or physiological abnormalities.
Im not trying to make myself out to be a martyr, but do you think it is fun doing this? You are probably the 50th person on this website that I have debated in regards to this issue. I see a true injustice being done to the American people through misinformation, and I feel it is my duty to make people aware of it. The only thing I have attempted to do is shine some light upon this subject and present an alternative viewpoint, and i am met with such rabid objections, attacks, and accusations upon my character that you would think I am doing something far more malicious than spreading awareness.
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5974236 - 08/17/06 08:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocyberin said:
But this raises another question: what is the dividing point between an abberation of societal norms and the acceptance of such? Off the top of my head, I cannot think of any other symptom, or American societal taboo in which a quarter of the american population commits or is afflicted by. I openly welcome any counter to that claim though.
How about oral sex? or premarital sex? One might make the argument that according to the "religious zealots" standards/norms, these behaviors are abnormal.
And I think this is the debateable issue. Should ADHD be a "disorder" and how does any particular society define "normal"? (as your quote suggests).
In addition, I haven't seen a source citing an ADHD prevalence of 25%.
ADD.org says 6% http://www.add.org/articles/factsheet.html
A more reliable source from the national institute of mental health says 3-5% http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhd.cfm
and craptacular wikipedia says 3-5% as well. (I don't have access to peer reviewed professional journals from pubmed as I am at home currently). Thus, the occurence is fairly low.
So with those prevalence rates, we could assume 2-3 kids in a classroom of 30 may be diagnosed with ADHD. IMO this sounds "reasonable". Were you to somehow look at historical records, I would think this has always been the case. For example, in the 1800's, you may find the same 2-3 "problem children" in a class of 30 (assuming a class size that large). Thus, you may reasonably make the argument that ADHD is not a "new" disorder/condition, but rather, it hasn't been diagnosed until more formal guidelines for diagnosis were established.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: badchad]
#5974492 - 08/17/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Let me preface this with an apology. I have gotten my facts mixed up. 1 in 4 americans have a mental disorder.. that was the highest, and 18.1 percent was the lowest for that figure.
Quote:
# ADHD is the most common psychiatric condition affecting children, estimates in prevalence in childhood range from 5 - 10%. (Clinical Pediatrics) # As many as 50% of children with ADHD are never diagnosed. (Harvard Mental Health Letter)
http://www.nmha.org/children/prevent/stats.cfm
Quote:
*The number of preschool children being treated with medication for ADHD tripled between 1990 and 1995.
*The number of children ages 15 to 19 taking medication for ADHD has increased by 311 percent over 15 years.
*The use of medication to treat children between the ages of 5 and 14 also increased by approximately 170 percent.
*White, suburban elementary children are given medication to treat ADHD at more than twice the rate of African American students.
*Methylphenidate (commonly known as Ritalin) is manufactured at two and a half times the rate of a decade ago.
*The majority of children and adolescents who receive stimulants for ADHD do not fully meet the criteria for ADHD.
*Many children who do meet the criteria for ADHD are not being treated.
*About 80 percent of the 11 million prescriptions written for methylphenidate (Ritalin is the brand name) each year are written for children.
http://www.education-world.com/a_issues/issues148a.shtml
here is the good one though. IMO, the most reliable source, the Center for Disease Control and Prevention...
Quote:
According to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), 7.8% of American Children are diagnosed with ADHD and 4.3% of children are taking medication for this disorder.
why is there no definitive statistical information regarding the percentage of people diagnosed with ADHD? Why can I find a figure ranging from 3% to 10%? Seems that if this is such a problem, to the point to warrant giving children schedule 2 drugs, don't you think there should be some serious census work on this?
the so called diagnostic symptoms of ADHD revolve mainly around school function. I think the rise in diagnosis of ADHD in children is quite parallel to the rise in strictness and rigor in our education system. Ever listen to the way your parents described High School? smoking cigs on campus, an almost come and go as you please attitude.
I think the increased rigidness of school life as well as the obvious increase of stress in schools has made this "problem" stick out and seem like some lack-of-attention epidemic.
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guri
Master of theimprobablitydrive

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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#5992514 - 08/24/06 12:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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my question does it really matter if adhd exists as a chemical imbalance or brain abonormalty or whatever? Lets say it appears that a person cant focus for more then a minute at a time. Then they are given medication such as adderal, and all of a sudden they are a far better student in class and always paying attention and ABSORBING what the teacher said and not just hearing it as back ground chatter. Just because you dont know what is the cause doesnt mean you shouldnt try to fix the symptom
-------------------- "If you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, then go home and burn all your records, all your tapes, and all your CDs because every one of those artists who have made brilliant music and enhanced your lives? The Beatles were so fucking high, they let Ringo sing a few songs." --Bill Hicks
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: guri]
#5992783 - 08/24/06 02:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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1) we are fixing problems which society has created. This isnt a human problem, or malfunction, it is a discrepency between the demand of interest in all studies, the emphasis upon grades. How do we measure success of a drug in regards to ADHD? well.... their grades went up! so the problem wasn't really one of "focusing" but rather one of low grades, and these grades are supposed to represent a model of normal human learning capabilities, which is completely idiotic, because there is no definitive, or even possible, model of normal human concentration, understand, grasping of reality and its subjects.
2) what if marijuana helps increase grades? what if a good diet helps as much as these quick fix drugs? Dont you see that if there is an alternative to not use amphetamines in 7 year olds that we should exhaust all possibilities.... also, this isn't that big of a deal, it is grades we are talking about. Where are the studies which show long term retention of data with adderall use? Why don't we just inject kids with heroin and see if that cures this "concentration" problem? how about turning off the fucking television once and a while and sitting down with your kids, going on a walk, stop giving them candy.
Like I have said before, the problem isnt one of physiology or genetics, it is one of poor parenting, compunded by a horrible society.
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#6017652 - 09/01/06 08:01 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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"This is just stupid. For this to even be plausible, 1 in 4 children in America would have to have had head trauma prior to diagnosis.
Grasping at straws..... Look, im sure life would be a lot easier if every single personal flaw we had could be blamed upon genetic disorders, but that isn't the case. I see that we are slowly moving in that direction, til one day we can sell a cure for Assholism, Mamasboyitis, and Obnoxious When Drunk syndrome.
Maybe ADHD is what happens when you touch a baby's soft spot. 
I view these drugs as performance enhancing drugs just like steroids. Should we be giving steroids to the weaker kids who have a "hormone deficiency"?
Maybe.
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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Baby_Hitler
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: badchad]
#6017677 - 09/01/06 08:13 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: To adapt and benefit said society, you adhere to the norms.
What if an individual is superior to said society? Should the individual adapt, or should the society adapt to them?
-------------------- Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ (•_•) <) )~ ANTIFA / \ \(•_•) ( (> SUPER / \ (•_•) <) )> SOLDIERS / \
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Sinthetic
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#6017735 - 09/01/06 08:36 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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Isn't it funny how questioning authority can make some people angry to the point of slinging insults like children?
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Corporal Kielbasa

Registered: 05/29/04
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#6024588 - 09/03/06 10:42 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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ADD/adhd = conversion insufficiency look it up. Check out a vision doctor. Most kids that have adhd actually have conversion insufficiency. It is curable by simple eye exercises. But then how will pharmacutical buisness make there money........after all pills can fix everything!!!!!
makes me sick
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OneWhoHasSeen
Temporal Anomaly


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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#6029110 - 09/04/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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Firstly, I would like to say that I am very happy a thread like this exists on the Shroomery. I am currently at a crossroads, I have battled what I "believe" to be AD/HD my entire life, and I feel like I am loosing. Thus, I am now turning to all of my friends and family for the answers I can't produce myself. I have read the arguments presented on this post, and have yet to come to a decision. Is medication my only resort, or can I somehow win an internal battle I have been loosing for as long as I can remember?
This post might be rather long, and I would also like to apologize in advance for the way it is written. My mind tends to race, and as such my thoughts and words jump from one thing to another and then back again in rapid succession. I have difficulty being coherent, as my writing professors are constantly reminding me.
As I read, I can see both sides of this argument. Although I lack the focus to do hardly any amount of research on this on my own, I am glad to see other have done it. I wont be quoting any sources, as the only source I currently have are the replies in this thread and my own opinions.
Firstly, I completely agree that AD/HD has existed for a very long time. It is easy for me to see why my issue would have exceptional advantages in a hunter/gatherer society. I have an enormous amount of energy, I have to constantly be doing something. Since my thoughts are always racing from one subject to the next, I consider a huge variety of plausible situations and thus am able to prepare for them well. With more simple tasks, such as building fire, shelter, hunting, gathering, tool use, etc. I feel someone with my condition (if it is a condition, still haven’t made up my mind) would have a great advantage.
Also, I agree that correlation does NOT prove a biological effect exists, to IGNORE these correlations is foolish, as they DO exist for SOME reason. Especially in light that all scientific study is based on indirect information, as a lot of the phenomena in our universe can not be directly observed (basic scientific theory), you must make hypothesis based on indirect observations that fit all logical criteria. The simple fact is, AD/HD will never be DEFENITIVLY proved OR disproved, which is the case with most things.
However, I also agree that the current focus on AD/HD is not a problem with those who have it, but our current society. Especially in my current situation in college, there are no "simple" tasks anymore. Having to memorize huge amounts of details, etc. is incredibly difficult for me. Not because I am not intelligent, because I know I am. In fact, I have noticed that my ability to process information tends to be a good bit faster then many of my fellow students. However, my problem has never been with my ABILITY to learn, but rather on focusing that ability and making it work for me.
Also, psilocyberin, I agree with you that AD/HD is probably way over-diagnosed in America, especially because American’s tend to look for quick fixes for every-day problems. However, you yourself admitted that 3-5% of the world is believed to be reasonably affected by this, whether biological or psychological. Despite that number probably being lower then the diagnosis rate here in America, that doesn’t mean that some individuals, perhaps like me, do really require help that can’t be a simple “mind over matter” solution. I feel this because as I listen and participate in conversations with my fellow students, none of them are having the level of difficulty in these areas that I myself am having?
I also agree that giving children medication is probably a bad idea. It might just be a stage in their development, or something they will grow out of in adulthood. But what about people like me, adults who have had this problem since they could remember and still have the issue, despite the chaotic adolescent times being over? Doesn’t that support the idea that this may be an issue that is inherent in some peoples brains? Wether it was biological or created by societal or external stimuli, IE being “wired that way”, does that make it any less of an issue if we can’t overcome this by “mind over matter” alone”?
I tend to do better in lectures. When a teacher is pacing back and forth, using gestures, emphatically using their voice, being excited about their subject, my mind tends to be better able to focus on their words. However, as SOON as there is a lapse in this, however small, my mind instantly wonders. The sad thing is I have NO control over it. I SNAP back to reality and realize I have been absently daydreaming for the past fifteen minutes and have missed a quarter of the lecture. I don't even realize it has happened until it is over.
This problem is magnified when it comes to my hated enemy, textbooks. With literature, novels and stories with plotlines, action, characters, all developed to hold your attention, I tend to have a moderate amount of success. However, textbooks, although sometimes designed to try and hold your attention, are usually written to get across a large amount of information to you. For the first 20 minutes of reading a textbook (about a third of a reading assignment for ONE class), it only requires a moderate amount of willpower to maintain focus. Ever had that thing were your eyes still move across a page and yet your mind is somewhere else so you do not absorb a single word of it? Well, as I said the first 20 minutes I normally catch my wondering in time and I have only missed a paragraph or two, so I go back and read it. Now, after those 20 minutes I find that my mind begins to wonder more and more, the amount of willpower required to focus on the words in the book becomes exponentially larger. Between 30 to 45 minutes of reading (about 1/2 to 3/4s the reading assignment for one class) I begin to miss entire pages, as I am daydreaming for minutes at a time. I am CONSTANTLY having to go back and re-read page after page. Now I am forcing with all my might to keep my focus, but its slipping away. My head begins to hurt with the effort of it all, and I am forced to give up. Sometimes I am able to finish the reading assignment, but most of the time I don't. When I have four classes and a limited amount of time to study, you can see the magnitude of my problem.
But this doesn't just stop with academics, it has an effect on every part of my life. In my social life, I have problems listening to anyone. They begin to speak, "you know the other day..." and I try to listen, but without even thinking about it my mind wonders. Then I hear "So what do you think?" and realize I have missed the entire conversation. I also tend to "butt in" to conversations all the time, because I know if I don't get a thought out of my head RIGHT THEN my mind will move on to the next thing and that thought will be lost. Most people think this is me being rude, but if you knew me you would know that I am a very polite person, and that being considerate is one of my highest priorities. However, I lack the ability to follow through with my conviction.
My house is covered with piles of stuff. I lay something down for a second, meaning to put it away, but then my mind moves on to the next thing and it gets forgotten. The same happens with cleaning the house, I normally can get through ONE chore, IE cleaning the dishes, before my focus and thus my motivation wonders and I move on to other things. Thus, my home is in a constant state of disarray. I have an exceptional amount of difficulty taking regular showers, brushing my teeth, eating meals. Stuff that regular people take for granted I have exceptional difficulty. I MEAN to do these things, but before I even start them my mind wonders to something else and it is forgotten.
Ack, my mind is wondering right now, its getting harder and harder to continue.
My daydreams are also not consistent. I will think of one thing this moment and the other thing the next. Sometimes I will think of something completely unimportant, then switch to some important task I need to do later, then that task is forgotten as I move on to the next subject. Its not that some situation is drawing my thoughts, there is no consistency to it.
I can't multitask AT ALL. I have trouble maintaining one line of thought, how the hell am I supposed to do more then that simultaneously? And that it what modern life is all about.
This all causes a HUGE amount of frustration in me. I know I am an intelligent person, I want to do so many things with my life. But I have so many unfinished projects. If I am LUCKY I start to do it (but, of course, NEVER finish), but most of the time my mind wonders even before I can start to do something.
I am a contortionist in my seat. I have to be CONSTANTLY moving. I am beating up and down, rocking back and forth, I am NEVER still. I’m dancing to some music that is always in my mind but never lets me relax. Actually, I need to get up and move around now, hopefully I can re-order my thoughts and get myself back on focus. This is about 15-20 minutes into my writing...
In my early grade years, I was constantly failing all my classes. F's were regular for me. Then my mom took me to a doctor and they put me on Riddlin. My grades instantly shot up to almost all A's, but I noticed I was getting something I can only describe as a heart murmur. They scared me, so I stopped taking the drugs. For the rest of my school, my grades struggled to maintain over a C. I tried taking an AP course in 9th that I knew my intellect could handle, but I almost failed because I had no ability to do my schoolwork.
Its not like I haven’t tried so many things to beat this thing. I have tried using pure willpower to focus myself, and it might work for a little while but soon my focus becomes too difficult for my willpower to handle, and I falter. I have tried meditation and yoga, but find my mind wonders off of it as soon as I start. Its supposed to help me concentrate, but how the fuck is it going to help me if I can’t concentrate enough to do it in the first place. Granted, I haven’t actually taken a class or done sessions on these yet, but the point is till valid.
OK, I think it is time to sum up because I just can't go for any longer. I am SO FRUSTRATED I want to rip holes in the wall and beat my fists into a bloody pulp. I am torn into two pieces, one side knows I am incredibly intelligent and that I can do ANYTHING I put my mind to, but I just can't fucking put my mind to anything. I have already dropped out of college once because of this, now I am trying again and fear I am going to loose.
I know its a problem with modern society, with sciences as they are things are no longer simple like in the “old days”. You are required to heavily specialize in one field, with heavy math, philosophical and scientific theory, or just plain memorization of details involved, mental challenges that require lots of focus. But I HAVE TO FACE REALITY. YES society should change, but it ISN'T CHANGING. Perhaps after years of meditation and yoga with an excellent mentor I may gain some control over this, but that doesn't help me NOW. If I drop out this second time, I know I will never be going back. I WANT to graduate, but I can see it slipping through my fingers with every passing moment. The chaos that exists within me is taking over, and I will be forced to give up what I wanted to do and resign my life to mediocrity. I have sometimes tried to face the reality that college may not be for me, but I am not willing to give up yet.
I'm in a corner, I have tried to change who I am. I have tried "mind over matter" but I know I am loosing. I NEVER wanted to ever get into a physically addicting drug, but I am loosing options fast. At first pot helped. It gave my mind peace were I never had it before, I was able to relax and stop the racing that had always taken over my mind. But although it helped me INTERNALLY, it was hurting me EXTERNALLY. It just sapped my willpower to do anything, and really hurt my ability to focus despite the fact it gave me peace. I liked it because it was only mentally addicting, because I could give it up without physical withdrawal, but it wasn't helping me achieve the goals I had in life.
God, I have lost were I am going with this. Can anyone help me shed light on this? OR if not, has anyone ever taken Adderol on a longer term basis for AD/HD and could tell me the effects? In what ways did it help and in what ways did it hurt? What were the side effects like? What was withdrawal like (since I plan on leaving it after I am out of college), and could you return back to normal? Did it change who YOU were?
Thanks everyone for your patience and help. I know this was long, and my thoughts not very concise. My mind HASN’T been made up one way or the other, and I need your help to make my decision. I am crying at the desperation I feel in my soul, but I feel some measure of hope that there are some people out here willing to help and understand.
-------------------- A Temporal Anomaly
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
#6030159 - 09/04/06 11:29 PM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
OneWhoHasSeen said:
Also, I agree that correlation does NOT prove a biological effect exists, to IGNORE these correlations is foolish, as they DO exist for SOME reason. Especially in light that all scientific study is based on indirect information, as a lot of the phenomena in our universe can not be directly observed (basic scientific theory), you must make hypothesis based on indirect observations that fit all logical criteria. The simple fact is, AD/HD will never be DEFENITIVLY proved OR disproved, which is the case with most things.
To start off, I am glad you read the entire thread before responsing, and I am doubly glad that in some way this thread has served its purpose: delivering an alternative viewpoint.
but... you cannot disprove something that does not exist.
Quote:
Also, psilocyberin, I agree with you that AD/HD is probably way over-diagnosed in America, especially because American’s tend to look for quick fixes for every-day problems. However, you yourself admitted that 3-5% of the world is believed to be reasonably affected by this, whether biological or psychological. Despite that number probably being lower then the diagnosis rate here in America, that doesn’t mean that some individuals, perhaps like me, do really require help that can’t be a simple “mind over matter” solution. I feel this because as I listen and participate in conversations with my fellow students, none of them are having the level of difficulty in these areas that I myself am having?
this brings up something I have wanted to talk about for a while...
now, as a certain society progresses technologically, so does its learning curve. I mean, imagine when we fully grasp and integrate parts of M theory into our technology, they will be teaching Quantum Mechanics in high school. But as the society develops, so does the amount of information and subjects which we find valid for intellectual consumption. These subjects and information (such as economics) are alien to an organism which is primarily equipped to only learn how to survive: learning how to communicate, learning what not to eat etc. So, outside of sub-instinctual actions/lessons why do we expect children to know how to learn the illusory by-products of a technologically advanced society? There is no real model for learning in America, sure there are thousands of models for teaching, but it reminds me of the one useless one day class labelled something like "behavioral sciences" which was a feeble attempt at teaching kids how to study: eat a good breakfast, get in a quiet place, get 8 hours of sleep.... you have all heard it before... and sure, that is somewhat of a framework for "how to study" but not really "how to grasp" or "how to learn"..... otherwise it becomes "memorization" and not "retention of data".... repetitive mnemonics instead of real understanding of the subject at hand. In america, we put so much weight on a test, and really no weight upon retention of data... even the ACT/SAT's are heavily crammed for, even though they are supposed to be a guage of how much retention you have had throughout your years in school. have you ever asked yourself, or analyzed how you learn, or were you always under the assumption that if you read something it should be complete understanding? dont you think there is a certain process with which you retain that information?
I also would like to add, that it seems you have had no problem understanding all the posts in this thread.
Quote:
I tend to do better in lectures. When a teacher is pacing back and forth, using gestures, emphatically using their voice, being excited about their subject, my mind tends to be better able to focus on their words. However, as SOON as there is a lapse in this, however small, my mind instantly wonders. The sad thing is I have NO control over it. I SNAP back to reality and realize I have been absently daydreaming for the past fifteen minutes and have missed a quarter of the lecture. I don't even realize it has happened until it is over.
This problem is magnified when it comes to my hated enemy, textbooks. With literature, novels and stories with plotlines, action, characters, all developed to hold your attention, I tend to have a moderate amount of success. However, textbooks, although sometimes designed to try and hold your attention, are usually written to get across a large amount of information to you. For the first 20 minutes of reading a textbook (about a third of a reading assignment for ONE class), it only requires a moderate amount of willpower to maintain focus. Ever had that thing were your eyes still move across a page and yet your mind is somewhere else so you do not absorb a single word of it? Well, as I said the first 20 minutes I normally catch my wondering in time and I have only missed a paragraph or two, so I go back and read it. Now, after those 20 minutes I find that my mind begins to wonder more and more, the amount of willpower required to focus on the words in the book becomes exponentially larger. Between 30 to 45 minutes of reading (about 1/2 to 3/4s the reading assignment for one class) I begin to miss entire pages, as I am daydreaming for minutes at a time. I am CONSTANTLY having to go back and re-read page after page. Now I am forcing with all my might to keep my focus, but its slipping away. My head begins to hurt with the effort of it all, and I am forced to give up. Sometimes I am able to finish the reading assignment, but most of the time I don't. When I have four classes and a limited amount of time to study, you can see the magnitude of my problem.
I dont consider this as a direct answer to this, but in some thread I explained to Leeryfan a method I use to combat that exact thing. it deals with misunderstood words: if you dont understand a certain word, you cant always fully grasp the sentence, and if you dont get the sentence, it may mess up full comprehension of a paragraph, and that paragraph to a page, from the page to the chapter... all from one word. Isnt it funny how you can read over what you just zoned out on, and it is vaguely familiar, and sometimes tough to find the spot before you zoned out? Im willing to bet that if you backtrack to find a word that you just dont understand, the paragraph before that should be grasped.
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Silverwolf
sandtrout


Registered: 09/06/03
Posts: 1,108
Loc: Darkover
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: SneezingPenis]
#6039215 - 09/07/06 05:41 PM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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Anyone treating AD/HD who doesn't think the condition is environmental toxin and poor nutrition related is not a good doctor (in my opinion). Check out the work of British doctor Vyvyan Howard on the dangers of environmental pollution if you can.
-------------------- "Odrade read the word silently and then aloud. "Arafel." She knew this word.Reverend Mothers of the tyrants time had impressed it into the Bene Gesserit consciousness,tracing it's roots to the most ancient sources. "Arafel:the cloud darkness at the end of the universe.""
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Anno
Experimenter



Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 24,166
Loc: my room
Last seen: 20 days, 18 hours
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Re: No science or proof behind ADHD as a biologic/organic syndrome or disease [Re: Silverwolf]
#6059690 - 09/14/06 02:37 AM (17 years, 4 months ago) |
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I am going to unstick this topic.
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