Home | Community | Message Board

MRCA Tyroler Gluckspilze
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2  [ show all ]
OfflineDeviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: RRRR]
    #5933740 - 08/05/06 04:01 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)



Clearly, God has a keen sense of style.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: Deviate]
    #5934181 - 08/05/06 10:56 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Clearly, natural selection and DNA have a keen sense of style. :smirk:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: RRRR]
    #5934263 - 08/05/06 11:23 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

? both

art is physical.

It seems to me people these days make the mistake of thinking art is some intangible thing with an origin in the human soul. I keep hearing "art is subjective!" everywhere, but how can this be said of a bunch of objects? reaction to art is subjective, and honestly thats the only subjective thing about it.

That said. Fashion encompasses anything the creator/wearer wants it to. Some people reject the idea that their fashion expresses them, and they seem to wear things that are both utilitarian and unfashionable.

Well anyway.
my definition of art is along the lines of "stuff people make." Which is still a poor definition because it doesn't account for readymades. I think the verb to substitute for "make" doesn't exist. It's like in between make and value.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRRRR
Rapture Ready

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/26/06
Posts: 170
Last seen: 16 years, 9 months
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: vampirism]
    #5934279 - 08/05/06 11:28 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:

It seems to me people these days make the mistake of thinking art is some intangible thing with an origin in the human soul. I keep hearing "art is subjective!" everywhere, but how can this be said of a bunch of objects? reaction to art is subjective, and honestly thats the only subjective thing about it.





Indeed, on the first day of my art theory class my teacher spent a full hour drilling the fact that "Beauty is NOT in the eye of the beholder" into our heads.
Quote:

my definition of art is along the lines of "stuff people make." Which is still a poor definition because it doesn't account for readymades. I think the verb to substitute for "make" doesn't exist. It's like in between make and value.



Very similar to my definition. Art is the remnants of life, it is tangible culture. The residue of society.


--------------------
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5934368 - 08/05/06 12:08 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Clearly, natural selection and DNA have a keen sense of style. :smirk:



Actually, biologists consider the peacock's tail to be an example of sexual selection, not natural selection.


--------------------


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFractalated
There's no onehome up there...

Registered: 07/22/06
Posts: 640
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: RRRR]
    #5935699 - 08/05/06 11:09 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RRRR said:
Indeed, on the first day of my art theory class my teacher spent a full hour drilling the fact that "Beauty is NOT in the eye of the beholder" into our heads.




I don't think there is some perfect form of beauty, contrary to what Plato might like to suggest.

There are objects, both beautiful and ugly. It is only with a [subjective] perceiver that values such as beauty can exist.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: RRRR]
    #5935891 - 08/06/06 12:40 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I am neither fashionable or materialistic, if by fashionable you mean staying aware of the usual momentary stylistic trends, and by materialistic you mean valuing the status afforded by trendy name brands and their concommitant expensive price tags. I recently ordered denim jeans from Wichita, Kansas because apparently only cowboys wear the type of cut that I grew up in and feel 'myself' in. I am outside of what is trendy partly because I am iconoclastic, partly because I don't give a rat's ass about what is fashionable, partly because I am 53 years old and still wear jeans, partly because I have no ass and do not look right in baggy pants, partly because I am hippy not hip-hop and partly because I cut the social-status-seeking mind out from the Mind that I wish to manifest. My last chiropractor looked at my 2003 Mazda Miata and said something to the effect that 'I bet you can drive a higher status car but you choose not to'. One of the finest compliments I've received in recent years because it is true and he saw that in me.

If I am hip, it is not is the eyes of materialistic Miami people. If I am hip it is because I am about something that those of like mind can appreciate me for. I do not wear suits. I bought a white linen suit that I wore with sandals for a Bat Mitzvah in Florida, but to both of my parent's funerals I wore blue jeans and a leather bomber jacket. Would Mom and Dad have cared? No. Did I deliver a beautiful eulogy at both events? Yes. Was I being my authentic self? Yes.

I wear a $6.00 Tibetan Buddhist bracelet and sometimes a Kabbalistic Tree of Life glyph around my neck. It cost me $65.00. Nobody knows what it is. Women say, 'Oh, that's pretty,' and I say "Thanks...know what it is?" They didn't realize that 'meaning' had anything to do with the pretty little colored semi-precious jewels. I'm not trying to make anyone feel ignorant, really, I just want desperately to connect with people on a level of meaningfulness, not preprogrammed nothingness. If I wore a Rolex diamond-studded Presidential watch, people would regard me with the respect paid by dyed-in-the-wool materialists. No explanation necessary - I would be 'da Man.' Values. I'd rather invest the 20K. I'm not looking for strippers and gold-diggers. Hell, I can always rent a Dodge Viper for the weekend in Miami.

True Self-expression (vs. expression of one's embodied ego) is always going to be simple because simplicity of garb allows for much deeper values to manifest.
I've been complimented for a $50.00 gold and silver Buddhist bracelet. It was a come-on. That's one reason why I now wear a $6.00 Buddhist bracelet. It is the mantra that is important not the gold and silver, and nobody has complimented me on the brass and white metal (although at least three people thought the bracelet was Hebrew not some ancient Indian Ranjana script). Nobody asks anything because nobody wants to Know anything. Nobody wants to Know anyone who isn't just like they are - it's too much effort.

"Oh, what pretty colors."
"Thanks."  :frown:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: Fractalated]
    #5936419 - 08/06/06 08:24 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

prove it :smile:

maybe beauty isn't what you think it is?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5936425 - 08/06/06 08:29 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Actually, biologists consider the peacock's tail to be an example of sexual selection, not natural selection.




I personally consider sexual selection to be an aspect of natural selection. Ecological selection is bound to have an effect on sexual selection as well, and "natural selection" can encompass both. Apparently there are some who merely identify natural selection as ecological selection. I'm not "in the field" and could care less. :smirk:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetrunksan
PsyChicken
Male

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 291
Loc: UK, Hellas
Last seen: 10 months, 4 days
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5944351 - 08/08/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If by "fashion" one means the expensive designer brands, then I'd say it can be very materialistic and most of the time the only reason people purchase them is so that they can show-of their expensive tags.

On the other hand I must admit that these expensive "designer clothes" have very good quality and can have quite a high artistic value (nice designs, colour combinations, nicely cut) so I can see how they can have a premium price.
I would understand a custom made dress/suit costing hundred of dollars but its ridiculous for any mass produced item.

Back on topic:
I'd prefer to be in a nicely decorated room rather than a dark concrete basement.

Same goes for clothing, it doesn't/shouldn't really matter what brand or style the clothes are as long as there's some summetry and a colour combination that makes sense.


Personal opinion: women shouldn't show too much less it makes them lose their mystery.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFractalated
There's no onehome up there...

Registered: 07/22/06
Posts: 640
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: vampirism]
    #5944419 - 08/08/06 03:04 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not sure if it's possible to prove it either way.

If it was objective, then there would have to be a form of perfect beauty and of perfect ugliness. But I can't think of anything that EVERYONE in the entire universe would agree is ugly or beautiful. Some people have strange tastes.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: Fractalated]
    #5944542 - 08/08/06 03:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well no, I don't think you're right on what would "have" to be the case.

Why would there have to be a form of perfect beauty and perfect ugliness? My whole point is that art can't be subjective because it undeniably exists, but existence is imperfect. The idea of art itself is very imperfect, the same causes and motivations for it exist nearly everywhere, but there are certain requirements that the creator needs to fulfill ( quick example: islamic art can't be representational, but the same motivations exist so everything is radically reinterpretted, especially since hiding images as seen in early christian art would not be a motivation for the creator ). If it were possible to make perfect art, none of it would be made anymore - there'd be no need at all. Hell, there's more than enough music, poetry and paintings in the world right now, but the physical imperfections are what keep it coming.

Does that affect any sort of objectivity in the matter? You have a problem in the argument with what people might like about art. That's their reaction though, and is independant from the piece itself. It's possible, by using formalistic reasons, to say someone has poor taste in art and be right -- there are a lot of things like care and technique that speak tomes of the creation process, which is an important part of interpreting any piece. There's more to it than that, because I'm excluding the subjective aspects but that's too individual to be relevant.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFractalated
There's no onehome up there...

Registered: 07/22/06
Posts: 640
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: vampirism]
    #5944590 - 08/08/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I mostly agree with you. Art can be judged objectively on meeting certain criterion, BUT those criterion are nothing more than standards that a group of subjective entities agreed upon. Not everyone will agree that a certain technique or style is 'good'.

My choice of wording was poor in that last post. Please substitute "absolute" in for "perfect". So it would be there is no absolute beauty and no absolute ugliness, it's relative AND subjective.


--------------------
"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblevampirism
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 8,120
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: Fractalated]
    #5944747 - 08/08/06 04:49 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

eh,

but by your skillful deconstructive definitioning you've reduced everything human to something insignificant/ impossible to make a decision about. Style doesn't really count as an objective part under my definitions, and everyone can agree that a technique is masterfully used or very hard to have executed- and i mean very very very hard like, dayum. Skill and uniqueness ( ie: only this person could do it, or the specifics of the creation of the painting like the subject or story behind it ) has a lot to do with the inherent value.

It's the sentimental value that is completely subjective. I like some things that speak really poorly of my taste, but it's not up to me: I like them and I can't help it. I think that's another point to make here- the objectivity of art is similar to the objectivity of humanity.

Regardless of what you want to be or achieve, humans are very alike at the core and can never escape that. What makes people more valuable than others? Well there's their actual, physical accomplishments, abilities and attributes and then matters of spirituality, personality, knowledge and etc. You might never like someone who has accomplished a lot and they might be total dickheads, but you can't deny their value to society. You probably noticed the relative "to society" term, but is it really relative?

I'm not so sure that it is, because of human nature. People are social animals and their work -- all of it art in some form -- is meant to interact with other people. Some of the best artwork is made without any conscious thought about other people, but that's what makes it so valuable. That artwork teaches other people a lesson- maybe in passion, or the content or whatever the hell the artist wants to get across.

I think one of the motivating factors of contemporary artwork is in exploring this strange connection between 'artist-artwork' and 'society-culture.' There is objectivity in art, but where is it? What does it say about us? At this point I could connect these questions and relate them to contemporary anthropology, but that would be more for the sake of argument..


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetrunksan
PsyChicken
Male

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 291
Loc: UK, Hellas
Last seen: 10 months, 4 days
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: vampirism]
    #5946971 - 08/09/06 10:26 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Morrowind said:
eh,

but by your skillful deconstructive definitioning you've reduced everything human to something insignificant/ impossible to make a decision about. Style doesn't really count as an objective part under my definitions, and everyone can agree that a technique is masterfully used or very hard to have executed- and i mean very very very hard like, dayum. Skill and uniqueness ( ie: only this person could do it, or the specifics of the creation of the painting like the subject or story behind it ) has a lot to do with the inherent value.

It's the sentimental value that is completely subjective. I like some things that speak really poorly of my taste, but it's not up to me: I like them and I can't help it. I think that's another point to make here- the objectivity of art is similar to the objectivity of humanity.

Regardless of what you want to be or achieve, humans are very alike at the core and can never escape that. What makes people more valuable than others? Well there's their actual, physical accomplishments, abilities and attributes and then matters of spirituality, personality, knowledge and etc. You might never like someone who has accomplished a lot and they might be total dickheads, but you can't deny their value to society. You probably noticed the relative "to society" term, but is it really relative?

I'm not so sure that it is, because of human nature. People are social animals and their work -- all of it art in some form -- is meant to interact with other people. Some of the best artwork is made without any conscious thought about other people, but that's what makes it so valuable. That artwork teaches other people a lesson- maybe in passion, or the content or whatever the hell the artist wants to get across.

I think one of the motivating factors of contemporary artwork is in exploring this strange connection between 'artist-artwork' and 'society-culture.' There is objectivity in art, but where is it? What does it say about us? At this point I could connect these questions and relate them to contemporary anthropology, but that would be more for the sake of argument..




So....... what's your point?

Sorry I'm dumb


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibletruekimbo2
Cya later, friends.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 9,234
Loc: ny Flag
Re: Fashion - Materialism or Art? [Re: trunksan]
    #5947951 - 08/09/06 04:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i think fashion reflects the subconscious philosophy of the times. you can tell alot about how the culture feels by watching how the way they dress changes and why.

a couple poeple mentioned projecting. the questions are, as a group what are poeple trying to project and what is that in response to.


--------------------
You can check the last post in my journal for contact info.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Art + Music
( 1 2 all )
silversoul7 1,685 21 11/16/04 08:16 PM
by abhi
* Ha Ha Ha Demystifying the art of "magick" gettinjiggywithit 1,399 10 04/17/05 07:40 AM
by Icelander
* martial arts
( 1 2 3 all )
CleverName 5,538 43 05/26/04 12:46 PM
by Swami
* Science vs. Art
( 1 2 all )
Cheebatoke 2,165 24 03/16/05 06:20 PM
by slowburner
* Martial Arts
( 1 2 all )
Anonymous 3,967 35 03/12/02 07:04 AM
by Asante
* What is art?
( 1 2 all )
Sclorch 2,873 27 05/12/03 12:50 AM
by Sclorch
* what does art mean to you? ferago2 1,174 7 06/17/04 08:59 AM
by redgreenvines
* Materialism
( 1 2 all )
Swami 3,632 30 01/08/04 09:09 AM
by fireworks_god

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,265 topic views. 1 members, 15 guests and 10 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.031 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 14 queries.