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musicturkey
Mitakuye Oyasin


Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 303
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14 pts of Fascism
#5923120 - 08/01/06 08:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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This is a fairly popular page, and i don't know how many of you have seen this or infact have a thread for it already (search engine doesn't work for me?) but I this is what originally got me all worked up and led me to "dig deeper" into the whole issue. Please if you may point out any of the bias or slanted statements/views on this.... I myself have completely agreed on this after reading nearly every article individually.
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm
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beatnicknick
The Innovator


Registered: 05/25/05
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Oh that is such BS we are not fascists, maybe the democrats are, but not I. I will fight and die for my country regardless of reason, whats wrong with that? I'm just trying to get in heaven like you.
-------------------- I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.
Edited by beatnicknick (08/01/06 08:48 PM)
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy

Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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i dont know how relevant this is..but my guess is that americans are divided into 49% that believe that freedom is whatever bush says it is.. another 49% that dont necessarily believe bush but are still nonetheless fascists.. 1.999% not sure/no opinion.. and 0.0001% who are certifiable moonbats by mere virtue of them questioning fascism...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: 14 pts of Fascism [Re: Annapurna1]
#5923150 - 08/01/06 08:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Not relevant or accurate.
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
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the list, and whether i think each item is arguably present in the united states and its government. i know that yes/no is a little simplistic.
1. powerful and continuing nationalism - yes 2. disdain for the recognition of human rights - no 3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - yes 4. Supremacy of the Military - yes 5. Rampant Sexism - no 6. Controlled Mass Media - no 7. Obsession with National Security - no 8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - no 9. corporate power is protected - yes 10. labor power is supressed - no 11. disdain for intellectuals and the arts - no 12. obsession with crime and punishment - yes 13. rampant cronyism and corruption - yes 14. fraudulent elections - no
it is important to note that the list is not definitive. only about half of the items on the list are directly associated with fascist thought, and all of them may be exhibited by states which are definitely not fascist.
the list is really just a comparison of ways in which the author believes (in some cases, incorrectly) that the united states is currently similar to the fascist regimes of pre-ww2 europe.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy

Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: 14 pts of Fascism [Re: wilshire]
#5925835 - 08/02/06 03:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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on a scale of 1 to 5..with 5 being the most fascist ..
1) powerful and continuing nationalism ..5 2) disdain for the recognition of human rights ..4 (the SCOTUS still occasionally rules against abuses)... 3) identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause ..5 4) supremacy of the military ..5 5) rampant sexism ..2 (as witness ann coulter)... 6) controlled mass media ..5 (under centralized private ownership)... 7) obsession with national security ..4 8) religion and government are intertwined ..3 9) corporate power is protected ..5 10) labor power is supressed ..4 (unions are still allowed to exist..but not to their job)... 11) disdain for intellectuals and the arts ..3 (depends on whether(1) or not(5) the intellect in question agrees with bush&co)... 12) obsession with crime and punishment ..5 13) rampant cronyism and corruption ..5 14) fraudulent elections ..4 (not all states use diebold machines)...
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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: 14 pts of Fascism [Re: Annapurna1]
#5925851 - 08/02/06 03:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Annapurna1 said: on a scale of 1 to 5..with 5 being the most fascist ..
1) powerful and continuing nationalism ..5 2) disdain for the recognition of human rights ..4 (the SCOTUS still occasionally rules against abuses)... 3) identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause ..5 4) supremacy of the military ..5 5) rampant sexism ..2 (as witness ann coulter)... 6) controlled mass media ..5 (under centralized private ownership)... 7) obsession with national security ..4 8) religion and government are intertwined ..3 9) corporate power is protected ..5 10) labor power is supressed ..4 (unions are still allowed to exist..but not to their job)... 11) disdain for intellectuals and the arts ..3 (depends on whether(1) or not(5) the intellect in question agrees with bush&co)... 12) obsession with crime and punishment ..5 13) rampant cronyism and corruption ..5 14) fraudulent elections ..4 (not all states use diebold machines)...
This should be saved forever. Like my sig.
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
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Re: 14 pts of Fascism [Re: Annapurna1]
#5925992 - 08/02/06 04:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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are you ranking them 1-5 on how fascist they are or the degree to which you perceive them to be present in the US?
on "how fascist" they are:
1. powerful and continuing nationalism
yeah, a 5 for this. see item 4.
2. disdain for the recognition of human rights
yes. a big five for this.
"The rights of the State as expressing the real essence of the individual. And if liberty is to he the attribute of living men and not of abstract dummies invented by individualistic liberalism, then Fascism stands for liberty, and for the only liberty worth having, the liberty of the State and of the individual within the State."
3. identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause
not a necessary part of fascism.
4. supremacy of the military
definitely a 5 for this one.
"The Fascist State expresses the will to exercise power and to command. Here the Roman tradition is embodied in a conception of strength. Imperial power, as understood by the Fascist doctrine, is not only territorial, or military, or commercial; it is also spiritual and ethical. An imperial nation, that is to say a nation a which directly or indirectly is a leader of others, can exist without the need of conquering a single square mile of territory. Fascism sees in the imperialistic spirit -- i.e. in the tendency of nations to expand - a manifestation of their vitality. In the opposite tendency, which would limit their interests to the home country, it sees a symptom of decadence. Peoples who rise or rearise are imperialistic; renunciation is characteristic of dying peoples."
5. rampant sexism
not necessary to fascism
6. controlled mass media
yes. under fascism, a powerful tool such as mass media has no place outside the control of the state. private ownership, centralized or not, is a no. that goes without saying.
7. obsession with national security
yep.
8. religion and government are intertwined
not necessarily.
"The State has not got a theology but it has a moral code. The Fascist State sees in religion one of the deepest of spiritual manifestations and for this reason it not only respects religion but defends and protects it. The Fascist State does not attempt, as did Robespierre at the height of the revolutionary delirium of the Convention, to set up a "god” of its own; nor does it vainly seek, as does Bolshevism, to efface God from the soul of man. Fascism respects the God of ascetics, saints, and heroes, and it also respects God as conceived by the ingenuous and primitive heart of the people, the God to whom their prayers are raised."
9. corporate power is protected
no, not necessary at all. don't get mixed up by the term "corporatism". the corporations of fascist italy were a different beast then we are now most familiar with.
"No individuals or groups (political parties, cultural associations, economic unions, social classes) outside the State. Fascism is therefore opposed to Socialism to which unity within the State (which amalgamates classes into a single economic and ethical reality) is unknown, and which sees in history nothing but the class struggle. Fascism is likewise opposed to trade unionism as a class weapon. But when brought within the orbit of the State, Fascism recognizes the real needs which gave rise to socialism and trade unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which divergent interests are coordinated and harmonized in the unity of the State"
10. see above.
11. disdain for intellectuals and the arts.
nope. not fascist.
" Fascism wants man to be active and to engage in action with all his energies; it wants him to be manfully aware of the difficulties besetting him and ready to face them. It conceives of life as a struggle in which it behooves a man to win for himself a really worthy place, first of all by fitting himself (physically, morally, intellectually) to become the implement required for winning it. As for the individual, so for the nation, and so for mankind. Hence the high value of culture in all its forms (artistic, religious, scientific) and the outstanding importance of education. Hence also the essential value of work, by which man subjugates nature and creates the human world (economic, political, ethical, and intellectual)."
12. obsession with crime and punishment
nope.
13. rampant cronyism and corruption
i don't think any political philosophy actually calls for corruption. fascism certainly doesn't.
14. fraudulent elections
nope. a fascist state wouldn't dignify the concept of democracy by holding even sham elections.
"In rejecting democracy Fascism rejects the absurd conventional lie of political equalitarianism, the habit of collective irresponsibility, the myth of felicity and indefinite progress."
quotes taken from "the doctrine of fascism"
http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm
but again, the list is pointless because it's not a definition. i could make a 14 point list about christianity.
1. weekly assemblies of congregations. 2. cross imagery 3. heavy use of stained glass windows in houses of worship 4. sex outside of marriage believed immoral 5. adherents of european descent 6. prayer 7. etc.
what use is this? it is not a definition. what is christianity? these 7 things? no, not at all. likewise, the 14 point list is not what fascism is. there are points on the list not necessary to fascism, and the things that are necessary to a definition of fascism are not on the list. the nordic socialist utopias have state religions. sexism is rampant in iran. the military is supreme in north korea. jews have weekly meetings of congregations and muslims believe that sex outside of marriage is immoral.
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David_vs_Goliath
Informer


Registered: 04/01/06
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Loc: Chicago
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Re: 14 pts of Fascism [Re: wilshire]
#5926416 - 08/02/06 06:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
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"6. Controlled Mass Media - no"
deffinatly one of the main parts of the bush regeim. look at the New York Times, they have been attacked numerous times by the government. or look at the AP press.
-------------------- "People living deeply have no fear of death." "Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love." "Our problems are man-made, therefore they may be solved by man. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings."
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 6 months, 28 days
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All the media I've seen other than Fox News has been critical of Bush.
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musicturkey
Mitakuye Oyasin


Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 303
Loc: MidWest
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Quote:
beatnicknick said: Oh that is such BS we are not fascists, maybe the democrats are, but not I. I will fight and die for my country regardless of reason, whats wrong with that? I'm just trying to get in heaven like you.
I was under the impression that the site was explaining the general steps towards fascism, not actuall full-blown fascist state. But yea I was really tempted to join marines, but I'm glad that in the end I didn't. Hey dieing for a cause is noble and joining the fight scoots you up in line to the pearly gates. Personally I want to take my time and live a full life.
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musicturkey
Mitakuye Oyasin


Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 303
Loc: MidWest
Last seen: 10 years, 9 months
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Quote:
David_vs_Goliath said: "6. Controlled Mass Media - no"
deffinatly one of the main parts of the bush regeim. look at the New York Times, they have been attacked numerous times by the government. or look at the AP press.
I'd say were getting there. No it isn't "controlled" yet; but TV programs today is made for the one-track mind. All these ""reality"" shows are about as far from it as possible. Even the shit that is directed towards pre-teens on up is just garbage. I find most damage being done in that age group because they are so impressionable. Even talk radio, some stations just piss me off so much, such ignorance and bias.
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