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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: just want some advice [Re: Yamidude]
    #5920806 - 08/01/06 01:42 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> are you seriously saying that 1-3 FAExchanges per DAY is the maximum you would do?

Yes. Anymore and you stand a decent chance of running into humidity problems. At 4 FAEs a day a significant portion of the day your FC will be at less than optimal humidity.

That much FAE is simply not required. Some people here seem to think that there's a 50cc gas engine in there that will stall or something. Myc simply doesn't need 100 times it's volume in fresh air each day. That's pure foolishness.

What's even more foolish is that every time this FAE debate seems to come up people are getting more and more wacky in their ideas. I always used to say that 1 FAE and a polyfilled drainage hole was enough, and it is. But after arguing over it a bunch with people who've never tried anything but over-fanning I usually say 1-3 per day. Now people want to say 1-3 per hour which is just flat out stupidity.

100's of times it's volume per hour? That's lunacy. Get a fucking grip on reality for goodness sakes. A year from now people will be trying to say you need a constant airflow, two years from now you'll be trying to say that your fruiting chamber needs to be a 50 mph wind tunnel. Just come off it already people.

Every year the exaggeration gets worse because some noob will start hollering that they don't have an pins the second their clock hits 7 days. Then somebody says "try more FAE". The noob then tries it and low and behold they get pins on the 8th-10th day and they post back that their cakes just needed more FAE, how good FAE is, and how important it is to fan 3 times an hour.

All that jive is just pure stupidity. 1 FAE worked perfectly find over a decade ago, and guess what? It still works perfectly fine today!

Here's from the PF tek...

"It has been seen that mushrooms will grow very well in a properly set up dual chambered terrarium, with only one good spraying a day - and even less than that."

"Each time the terrarium is sprayed, the fungus should be ventilated. To ventilate, take off the lid, and while holding the spray shield vertically, fan the chamber with a piece of cardboard, and then spray as above."


So everyone who disses 1 FAE a day is dissing time tested advice from the guy that pretty much started it all.

Some mushrooms need more FAE, but cubes do just fine with 1-3 per day. Perhaps that's why Stamets was never successful in germinating or fruiting shiitake spores. He must have fanned them to death.


-FF


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OfflineYamidude
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Registered: 06/15/06
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Re: just want some advice [Re: fastfred]
    #5920818 - 08/01/06 01:47 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think you get worked up way to easily there FF. Drink some warm tea or take some kava kava or something..


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InvisibleOmnicracker
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Re: just want some advice [Re: fastfred]
    #5920839 - 08/01/06 01:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
So everyone who disses 1 FAE a day is dissing time tested advice from the guy that pretty much started it all.
-FF




you are on the verge of being a poon...

you say this, and yet you continuallly rip Stamets and RR and others even more experienced than old PF. you do this with out giving them any of the 'experience' credit that proves you and PF right.

you dont know what you want, so you pretend to be king of an online forum where everyone finds you increasingly abnoxious...


--------------------




xxx..Learn Something..xxx


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: just want some advice [Re: Omnicracker]
    #5920890 - 08/01/06 02:27 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not trying to rip on Stamets and RR. There's no reason to be insulting.

You are the one going against experience, not me. If you want to claim that ridiculously high FAE helps then prove it.

Even if you do prove it that does nothing to counteract the fact that 1 FAE/day works just fine, and has for well over a decade.

So stop telling me I'm giving bad advice when you are dead wrong. Nobody likes being told that they're wrong, but I don't give two shits weather you like it or not.

I'm not trying to pretend to be a "king" of this forum and if you find me "abnoxious" I could care less.


-FF


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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: just want some advice [Re: fastfred]
    #5921606 - 08/01/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

you dont know what you want, so you pretend to be king of an online forum where everyone finds you increasingly abnoxious...




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OfflineSinthetic
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Re: just want some advice [Re: Cubenisseur]
    #5921690 - 08/01/06 12:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, I agree. All Fastfred seems to do lately is give out mediocre advice while being an ass. Just because he can't keep his humidity up with optimal air exchange, everyone else must be wrong. And no PF didn't start it all. He started the ghetto, good-enough method.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: just want some advice [Re: Sinthetic]
    #5921952 - 08/01/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

How soon we forget...

PF did start it all. He invented a method simple enough and cheap enough for anyone to do and then he sold spores for better than a decade. He advertised in a magazine with worldwide circulation (high times) and provided the instructions on how to grow them.

There were very few people growing before PF. The people who did, like P. Stamets, were part of a very small group of people in the know who actually practiced mushroom cultivation.

Of course, very people here have been around long enough to know that.


-FF


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: just want some advice [Re: fastfred]
    #5922380 - 08/01/06 04:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

actually i gotta kind of side with FF here to some extent

people really confuse these things

you're totally right on that the amount of mycelium/mushrooms you have growing can't totally use up all the fresh air in a typical FC. but there's more to it than that.

we know CO2 is heavier than air. when its given off by the surface of your casing, it doesnt move very far. some people, use very shoddily thought-out casing trays, where the tray walls extend several inches above the surface, where they're like half full (i cringe when i see that... come on people, fill the tray all the way so the surface is level with the top, or find a more appropriate tray.) so any CO2 given off, sits there, in a pocket. you need to fan it to move it around and off the surface. the mushrooms may not be consuming all the fresh air inside the FC, but its that confined little area you're worried about, the more CO2 you can keep off it, the better, and it will build up there quicker if it has no place to go. just using an appropriate sized tray mostly solves that for you - the CO2 won't be trapped and will drift off to an extent, greatly reducing the need for you to force it off!

if you look in TMC at the cube parameters, and see the 1-3 times per hour, you need to put that in perspective. as in, read the rest of the book, and the type of grow room he describes. most of us have a few small to medium sized trays at a time, and can give them individual attention. if you're talking about a commercial growing outfit, there's no way you're giving all the casing surfaces individual attention. having that much air exchange in the whole room, creates enough of a current, that it ensures its taken care of for you. we work on a smaller level, we don't have all that much CO2 to deal with in the first place, and a quick fanning directed right at your casing surface, takes care of it without the need to replace 100% of the air in the entire chamber. this is where people get confused.

as for PF's reccomendation, lets think cakes for a minute, because that's what he deals in. cakes are more 3-dimensional. they're usually raised up a bit, either on a double ended case, a lid, something. so again, they 'exhale' co2, it has a place to go. it doesn't sit on the surface of a cake, it can drift off the sides and down. PF's suggestion for 1 fanning a day, is sufficient for this reason. the CO2 isn't trapped up against the growing surface, so you don't need to fan it out so often.

a lot of experienced hands sing the same tune, mushrooms need lots of fresh air. well what this *really* means, is not necessarily fresh air, but that the concentration of the air closest to the surface of your substrate, has a low CO2 concentration. the easiest way to do so, is with lots of air exchange. the smart way to do it, is to use an appropriate casing tray if casing, or to place your drainage holes in the correct place in a monotub, or whatever your situation calls for. this is why stamets also gives reccomended CO2 levels in ppm - yet nobody ever bothers to quote those numbers! instead, the easily misunderstood reccomendation of '1-3 times per hour' is taken literally and incorrectly and repeated ad infinitum.

if you take both ends of the spectrum and put them together (i.e., one of those horrid casing trays where the walls reach up 2-3 inches above the surface of your casing), and try to get by fanning it only once per day, then you could run into problems.

it just takes a little reasoning and logic here. apply what works for your situation and growing method. you can under-do FAE. of course we know stagnant air can encourage contaminates on top of balancing your CO2 concentrations. BUT, you can over-do it, and cause humidity problems. humidity is at least as important, if not more important. so find a balance that works, and use common sense. all the fresh air in the world won't make mushrooms grow if everything else isn't in check.


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