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OfflineS1lverdj
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LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek
    #5918717 - 07/31/06 02:32 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I was wondering why one would use something like the honeywater tek and wait 2 weeks to grow mycelium in a solution then inoculate a substrate jar and wait another 2-3 days for the jar to colonize, rather than just inoculate the substrate jars straight from the syringe and spend the 2 weeks waiting for that to colonize? I was hoping someone could clarify this for me, because as it is they both look like the same amount of time and same results.

Thanks.


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OfflineToxxy
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: S1lverdj]
    #5918763 - 07/31/06 02:50 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

According to what I have read, a halfpint jar of liquid culture generally takes a week to colonize fully, then another week or two after that for the PF jar to colonize fully.

One benefit to using LC is that you can get more out of your spores, thus allowing you to use more in your PF jars.

I'm currently in the beginning stages of my first grow, and am glad that I have a liquid culture to bail me out if I run out of spores in my syringe. I only have 3cc's of it left, due to poor techniques I used when starting, but thanks to my LC, I'll be able to spawn to BRF using about 2 or 3cc's of mycelium in each of 10 different jars.


Edited by Toxxy (07/31/06 02:51 PM)


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InvisibleTippinthru
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: S1lverdj]
    #5918817 - 07/31/06 03:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Spores, like seeds take time to germinate.

Once germinated in an LC, that wait is over.
Plus, you have more far inoculate, than in a syringe.

1/2 gallon jar

Once an LC is viable, it remains so for a long time.
If you refrigerate it.

When you inoculate with an LC.
You will often see lots of growth inside 36/48 hours.

Spores, on the other hand, may take a week, before you even see any germination.

2 ml of a spore syringe can/will make 2000ml of LC.

You can stretch a spore syringe out, for a year, using LC.


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OfflineS1lverdj
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5921285 - 08/01/06 09:09 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the comments. Also, thanks a lot for those pics of what it should look like. I'm currently trying the honeywater tek and had no real clue as to what I was looking for. However, I am sort of worried as it's been 6 days and there's still no sign of growth.


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OfflineSinthetic
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: S1lverdj]
    #5921298 - 08/01/06 09:22 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Did you get organic honey? Some honey has preservatives that won't let the spores germinate. Also if there is too much honey nothing will happen.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: S1lverdj]
    #5921300 - 08/01/06 09:23 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

On my first honeywater attempt, I started a jar, waited for two weeks, got somewhat disappointed, put it on my hidden shelf and left it.

Came back two months later to a BIG THICK WHITE CLOUD.

Seems to be a resilient teq, I say give it lots of time.


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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #5921311 - 08/01/06 09:28 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Organic honey? WTF? People are trying to apply the word organic where it doesn't even make sense.


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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: fastfred]
    #5921353 - 08/01/06 09:52 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
Organic honey? WTF? People are trying to apply the word organic where it doesn't even make sense.




No he's absolutely right, some kinds of honey have preservatives that render them useless for this teq.


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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.


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OfflineExoticBlend
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #5921375 - 08/01/06 10:10 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think what he mean is, since honey is made by bee, all honey is organic. You must look for honey without preservative agent.

1 st Def of Organic: Of, relating to, or derived from living organisms: organic matter.


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OfflineSinthetic
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: ExoticBlend]
    #5921419 - 08/01/06 10:36 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Lol i didn't make up the name. If you buy honey and it doesn't say organic it probably has preservatives.

or·gan·ic (ôr-gnk)
adj.

1. Of, relating to, or affecting organs or an organ of the body.
2. Of or designating carbon compounds.
3. Of, relating to, or derived from living organisms.
4. Using or produced with fertilizers of animal or vegetable matter, using no synthetic fertilizers or pesticides.
5. Free from chemical injections or additives, such as antibiotics or hormones.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: ExoticBlend]
    #5921531 - 08/01/06 11:15 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"USDA’s National Organic Program is a marketing program and makes no claims that organic farming is "better" in any respect than conventional farming."

I guess that sums it up pretty well. I've never heard of them putting fungicides in honey. I'm not sure there is any such thing as organic honey though. You can't regulate where a bee flies and if it flies over to some GM crops it's not "organic" any more.


-FF


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OfflineHoss
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: fastfred]
    #5921546 - 08/01/06 11:21 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Honey is naturally antifungal and antibacterial.

You guys want to see some truely natural honey?

http://www.reallyrawhoney.com/

This stuff tastes GREAT!

It's fun to take the cappings from the honey and chew it! Mmmm!


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OfflineYamidude
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: Hoss]
    #5921553 - 08/01/06 11:23 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

the tasty shit is the ones that come with a big ol hunk of honeycomb inside the jar...


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: fastfred]
    #5921559 - 08/01/06 11:26 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

"As beekeepers, finding pollution-free and fresh areas clear from herbicides, pesticides, and chemical fertilizers to place beehives is extremely difficult and not available in most areas of North America. Isolated areas in the northwestern corner of North Dakota and the Upper Frontier of Canada are to date the only ranges of certifiable land."




Good luck finding "organic" honey.

Ha! I also just noticed that you can get "organic pesticides" that are more dangerous than the synthetic ones.


-FF


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: fastfred]
    #5921568 - 08/01/06 11:28 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I'm amazed that "reallyrawhoney" isn't a porno site.

How the hell did that happen?


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Offlinekillalaz
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: fastfred]
    #5921578 - 08/01/06 11:32 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
"USDA’s National Organic Program is a marketing program and makes no claims that organic farming is "better" in any respect than conventional farming."

I guess that sums it up pretty well. I've never heard of them putting fungicides in honey. I'm not sure there is any such thing as organic honey though. You can't regulate where a bee flies and if it flies over to some GM crops it's not "organic" any more.


-FF



Well for one honey farmers can and do regulate where the bees go. It is some what easy actually. Bees don't randomly go to flowers, there are scout bees who go out and find flowers with high pollen content then return to the hive and do a dance. This dance shows the other bees exactly where the flowers are and they proceed to go to the flowers and then return etc. Also the statement you made about organic farming is true in the sense that it is not proven to be "better" at producing crops or for the farmers wallet. However for our case anything that has pesticides/fungicides (whis is not organic BTW) would make our projects defunct. Also in my experience organic vegetables are bigger and tastier than the "perfect" looking vegetables you get at the regular grocery store. There was an article in TIME a few months back about this. It was very interesting it may be on there website. There was all kinds of excerpts from scientific studies on organic vegetables. Did you know that they engineer vegetables to look good and sacrifice taste and quality. This is why you have such "good" looking vegetables that don't spoil at the grocer but taste like ass. Almost as a rule the uglier the veggy the better it tastes. Anyway the argument is pointless b/c any kind of chemicals in the honey would affect the grow.


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Offlinedizzim
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: killalaz]
    #5921607 - 08/01/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I thought the advantage of a LC was that you have isolated a fruit with desirable characteristics and have essentially 'cloned' it by injecting a piece of that fruit into the LC jar. whereas with a multi-spore inoculation, you have many substrains germinating that may not be ideal.

Please correct me if i've misunderstood the purpose of a LC.


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: Hoss]
    #5921634 - 08/01/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hoss said:
Honey is naturally antifungal and antibacterial.





exactly. nobody would add a preservative to honey, its not needed. honey itself, is a preservative. it works on several levels, one of which being production of our familiar h2o2 through a slow steady chemical reaction in the sugars. i know there's lots of brands that claim its 'preservative free' but its just clever marketing... they all are! find me a brand of honey that has a preservative! unless its some watered down honey-flavored syrup or some crap, you wont.

if your honeywater doesnt grow, you used too much honey, were contaminated from the start (bacteria can grow in it when its watered down!) or did something silly like inject before it cooled off. some honeys work better than others for sure, ive tried a few including the cheapest crap on the bottom of the shelf, but none of them didn't work.


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: dizzim]
    #5921642 - 08/01/06 11:54 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

dizzim said:
I thought the advantage of a LC was that you have isolated a fruit with desirable characteristics and have essentially 'cloned' it by injecting a piece of that fruit into the LC jar. whereas with a multi-spore inoculation, you have many substrains germinating that may not be ideal.

Please correct me if i've misunderstood the purpose of a LC.




those are two different uses of an LC. the end result, and primary purpose, is to have a large amount of fast moving inoculant. would you rather have 10cc of spore solution that takes days to start, or 1000cc of LC solution that starts growing within hours of being introduced to a substrate? you can start from spores, from tissue, from another LC, etc, just lots of ways to go about starting your LC.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: killalaz]
    #5921648 - 08/01/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

There are organic pesticides that are much more toxic than the ones you would find on a standard crop. Organic pesticides don't have to go through testing either so there is no way to know if they are safe. That's why it's no safer or better to eat "organic" foods, in some cases it may even be less healthy.

I was just more concerned with the poor soul trying to find "organic" honey that probably doesn't exist in his area. In the "organic" marketing quest it seems like they are all too eager to apply the label to anything and everything.

In a market driven world if there is an unfilled niche it will be filled by someone regardless of weather it even makes sense. Organic used to simply mean food grown without chemical fertilizers or pesticides. The use of chemical fertilizers is the key distinction, so applying the term to non-fertilized products like milk and honey makes no sense whatsoever.

I suppose they'll just keep expanding it anyway. Pretty soon they'll probably try to apply it to inorganic products. That'll be a laugh.


-FF


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: fastfred]
    #5921652 - 08/01/06 11:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

organic = expensive

its a tax on uneducated vegetarian hippies and the like :thumbup:


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OfflineSinthetic
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: creamcorn]
    #5921698 - 08/01/06 12:13 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I've found organic honey at 3 different large supermarket chains.


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OfflineS1lverdj
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: Sinthetic]
    #5922320 - 08/01/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I just used honey from one of the little "honey bears" you get at Wal-Mart. I've looked all over the container and all I can find that it said was in there was "honey". Wal-Mart's definately got a nose for details *yea right*. Anyways, the tek said I wanted the water to be pale yellow, but it took about 3/4tbs to get it like that rather than the "less than a teaspoon" the tek suggested. Also, I've noticed all over the place where people suggest a tablespoon or more in the solution, so could I really have used too much honey? The water's kind of cloudy and there's this one lone ball-shaped clump floating around that's dark in the middle. It's been the same for days (the clump, that is). The clump isn't attached to anything and justs sits in the bottom of the jar until I stir it around. The solution seems to be getting more cloudy, but shouldn't it be more than just slightly cloudy after 7 days sitting in my closet?


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: S1lverdj]
    #5922403 - 08/01/06 04:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

cloudy, depending on your interpretation and what you describe, is usually a bacterial infection. cheap honey often has bits of wax and protiens and other sediment, so if it was cloudy from the start, this might be what you're seeing. if it gets increasying cloudier (as in the solution becomes less transparent), without puffy white growth, its bacteria.

next time, use a scale to measure out the honey you're adding. an LC should be 2-4% sugars by weight. 4 grams of honey for every 100ml of water is an easy rule of thumb. that is the optimal recipe. no guesswork with spoons or judging by colors or any such nonsense. correct recipe = good growth. incorrect recipe = poor or no growth.


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OfflineSlainhobo
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: creamcorn]
    #5924054 - 08/02/06 12:50 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I made four LCs, and only one has really taken off. Been about a week, but the one that has taken off has 2 or 3 black specks, size of ground pepper. It should just be a clump of spores right?


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: Slainhobo]
    #5924784 - 08/02/06 09:06 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

most likely.  especially if you used a lot of spore solution, or dark spore solution.  keep an eye that the specs don't grow or multiply and you're good :thumbup:


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OfflineS1lverdj
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: creamcorn]
    #5925015 - 08/02/06 10:56 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The little clump that's been looking the same for days has doubled in size overnight. Are we talking contam or myc? I'm really hoping it's myc. There's a dark spot in the middle of it that I'm also hoping is a clump of spores?


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Invisiblecappa
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: S1lverdj]
    #5925135 - 08/02/06 11:39 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Sounds like myc.

If by cloudy you meant after you boiled or PCed your honeywater solution, their were 'chunks' of crap in there..you boiled or PCed your solution too long and the sugars in the solution carmelized.

15-20 min @ 15psi works great for half pint LCs.
for boiling(I dunno so) check the teks.


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OfflineS1lverdj
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: cappa]
    #5925232 - 08/02/06 12:15 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I intend on getting a PC as soon as I can. It would make everything so much simply. Unfortunately, it's just not in the budget right now.
I'm beginning to think the clouding actually came from using cheap honey, as I've been thinking about that since someone suggested it earlier. I'm also thinking the myc is growing so slow because I used too much honey and the natural antifungal properties of honey gave me a royal "f$%k you, man". Could also be that my house is fairly cool and I haven't exactly setup anything to really "incubate" the solution. It sits on my desk. What would be a good setup for an incubator? I'm moving in a week or two, so I don't want to setup anything major until I'm settled in my new place.
Also, I'm going to try a KARO solution and see if I a little more success.


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OfflineSinthetic
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: S1lverdj]
    #5925351 - 08/02/06 12:53 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Set it on top of your monitor.


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OfflineS1lverdj
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: Sinthetic]
    #5925548 - 08/02/06 02:09 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Wow...that never crossed my mind. Thanks, I'll try that.


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OfflineCoolMojo
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Re: LC vs. Plain ole PF Tek [Re: S1lverdj]
    #5925718 - 08/02/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Honey already has natural fungicide/pesticides. The Egyptians used it to dress burns and bad gashes because of this.

You can transport bee hives to orchards so that the bee's make their honey from only one kind of flower. This will change the taste of the honey dramatically. In fact its becoming a new craze to buy "gourmet" honey. Clover honey is a generic term for who knows where they got the pollen lol. If your interested in this, I recommend a type that may be called "butter honey" it tastes just like you mixed the two and is great on toast in the morning.

You see "organic" on honey bottles because technically all honey is, and if they put that on there, some uneducated consumer will pick their bottle of honey over the competition.

That said there IS a more "natural" form of honey. Honey sold at the store has been pasteurized, you can contact a bee farm directly (there is one within a 30 minute drive of you most likely) to get some that hasn't been. Most people want the pasteurized honey because its also filtered better then "raw" honey which will contain little chunks of wax, pollen, sometimes jelly and almost always bee parts (legs, wings that sort of thing). People find eating an insect disgusting so they filter it better to be sold to the "public".
I haven't been able to find out why mushroom spores will germinate and thrive in honey in spite of honey's natural defenses. Maybe its the pasteurizing process I don't know. The reason the honey has this fungicide is that its meant to be stored for the bee's winter food source so it needs a natural preservative.

Now to get back on topic (hehe) One reason has already been stated, it makes Little bit of spores go a LONG way. Another reason is it lessens the time that contams can take hold in a PF jar. This is especially usefull if you don't have a PC.

And now its time for my honeybee/mushroom loving arse to move on to another post LOL


Edited by CoolMojo (08/02/06 02:55 PM)


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