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Offlinewhatsthestorymg
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Registered: 07/23/06
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Grain Substrates vs. BRF
    #5913499 - 07/29/06 11:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Why would one want to use grain as opposed to simple BRF cakes. I got a hold of a pressure cooker so now that is an option at my disposal, but i dunno. Unless there's a good reason i'll just stick to cakes as I am only cultivating for personal enjoyment. hmm  :mushroom2:


--------------------
I pity the fool who don't enjoy a good cubie :mushroom2: :mrt: :mushroom2:
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InvisibleUnderNose
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: whatsthestorymg]
    #5913535 - 07/29/06 11:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Using grain to spawn more substrate like Horse poo or coir and casing it will give you more shrooms, and much more potent shrooms.
Even using the grain as a substrate & casing it will work & should get you more shrooms than cakes.
But there is a little more effort required.


These are some Z-strain shrooms that I grew,
Started with a liquid culture,
 

got some grain going


then mixed that into some enriched coir substrate & cased it.
(I would have spawned to poo if I had some)




This was my first attempt at mushroom cultivation.
It's not to hard as long as you read lots and understand what you are doing and why.

IMO I got a lot more shrooms than if I had done cakes, Over 200 dry grams from that grow :crazy2: :crazy2:
I don't know about the difference in potency I have never done cakes.
But my shrooms get people pretty tripped out:thumbup:


--------------------
LAGM 2.022

:dna::dna:


Edited by UnderNose (07/30/06 12:09 AM)


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InvisibleToTheExtreme, LOL
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: UnderNose]
    #5913727 - 07/30/06 01:18 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think grain is much more manageable, and STAR TREK RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


--------------------

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OfflineCantiSama

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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: ToTheExtreme, LOL]
    #5913940 - 07/30/06 03:12 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

BRF sucks. its slow as hell and you have to waste time dunking it after colonization. grains are way, way faster. ive gotten 1+ ounces dry from one flush on rye, way more than all flushes when i did BRF cakes.


--------------------
Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.


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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: CantiSama]
    #5914009 - 07/30/06 03:35 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CantiSama said:
BRF sucks. its slow as hell and you have to waste time dunking it after colonization. grains are way, way faster. ive gotten 1+ ounces dry from one flush on rye, way more than all flushes when i did BRF cakes.




BRF doesn't suck . As far as a nutritional standpoint goes , BRF is quite good . The problem is the ratio of BRF in cakes , 2:1:1 , 1 part BRF to 2 parts verm , a non nutritious medium , and water , another non-nutritious part . There's just not enough BRF in a cake to supply enough nutrients for monster flushes . BRF in itself is quite nutritious , there's just not enough of it in cakes to make cakes very prolific.

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony
:heart: Hippie Chick  :mushroom2:


--------------------
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OfflineCantiSama

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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: HippieChick]
    #5914049 - 07/30/06 03:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i suppose you are right, especially the amount of experience that you have, althought i still do not care for brf cakes in the least bit. it was good at first but after i did them twice i was done for good and moved on to rye. never looked back.


--------------------
Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: HippieChick]
    #5914119 - 07/30/06 04:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Couldn agree less. Just because some has posted lots doesnt make them right.
If you do a search there are a whole host of posts that demonstrate that BRF has lower nitrogen and tryptophan precursors than other substrates like millet and rye.
If you make a cake with the same rations of millet and verm and another with the same amount of brf and verm, you will still get more, healthier, bigger, more potent cubies off the millet cake than you ever will off the brf cake.
BRF is crap as a substrate period - its low in precursors and it nearly always grows smaller, less potent cubies.


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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #5914231 - 07/30/06 06:13 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

> BRF is crap as a substrate period

By what standard?

The standard measure of the quality of a substrate is biological efficiency (BE). BRF has an excellent BE.


-FF


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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: fastfred]
    #5914316 - 07/30/06 07:09 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

quit confusing the newbs you guys!!  :crazy: :tongue: :grin:


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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: fastfred]
    #5914346 - 07/30/06 07:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I'll have to agree with Fred and HC. Not based on any kind of scientific proof, but just from personal experience. I've have some journeys on BRF grown shrooms that were just as powerful, if not more so, as any other substrate I've used. I used to think h/poo was better potency-wise, but lately I honestly don't notice much of a difference. As HC said, the only real difference I've noticed is quantity and size.

To the original poster: What you use depends on the quantity you want. If you just need a couple grams, stick with cakes. If you want ounces or pounds, go with cased grains or better yet, grains spawned to poo.

The debate on which substrate is best will probably go on forever because it's mostly based on opinion. The only substrate additive that has been scientifically documented to really increase potency is tryptamine, which is hard to come by.


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Offlineshaman2b
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: FooMan]
    #5914550 - 07/30/06 10:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I still use PF cakes occasionally, primarily for convenience when I am going to be out of town. Since the cakes take so damn long to colonize, I can be gone for 3 weeks and then they're ready to case when I get back.

I've never done straight PF and stuck it in the FC. I've always crumbled & cased. Using this method, the pinset and fruits are decent. The only problem I have is moisture -- sometimes I forget to dunk for the first flush, and man it shows.

Rye is nice, because it's super easy. Fast colonization, and you can case directly. I use WBS (millet) when I want to do poo or straw. All of these beat the hell out of PF for prolific flushes and nice fruits.

S2b


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Invisiblejmg5
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: FooMan]
    #5914551 - 07/30/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Even if it made no difference in the potency or size of the fruits, I'd still use grain.  I've never had a rice cake colonize as fast as a rye or millet jar. :shineon:


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Offlinecoda
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #5914636 - 07/30/06 10:48 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

are we arguing about BRF potency again? There is no scientific data, or any evidence (minus some bioassays) that prove that BRF is any weaker or stronger then any other substrate.

However, i see no problem in arguing the fact that it's a poor performer and is often difficult to get prepped right. IME brf doesnt suck because of the potency issues, it sucks because there are easier, cheaper, and more efficient methods available.


--------------------
To get really high is to forget yourself. And to forget yourself is to see everything else. And to see everything else is to become an understanding molecule in evolution, a conscious tool of the universe. And I think every human being should be a conscious tool of the universe. . . .

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i really am glad you came back to us instead of taking the other path. *hug*

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OfflineCubenisseur
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: coda]
    #5914687 - 07/30/06 11:14 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Ahh...the voice of reason.


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InvisibleTippinthru
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: whatsthestorymg]
    #5914699 - 07/30/06 11:20 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

whatsthestorymg said:
Why would one want to use grain as opposed to simple BRF cakes. I got a hold of a pressure cooker so now that is an option at my disposal, but i dunno. Unless there's a good reason i'll just stick to cakes as I am only cultivating for personal enjoyment. hmm  :mushroom2:




A tray of colonized rye, cased & fruited will give you better B/E.
Simply because, rye is 100% organic nutrient.

A cake mix contains a significant amount of non-nutrient Vermiculite.

Rye alone is easy, once you get the hang of it.

Wbs/grain, as spawn to h/poo, then cased is also easy.
Once you get the hang of it.

Grain spawn to h/poo, or compost is near all 100% nutrient.

Which equals about the best possible B/E.


--------------------
Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time...
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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5915315 - 07/30/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tippinthru said:

A cake mix contains a significant amount of non-nutrient Vermiculite.




Talking about BE, wouldn't you use the number of just the weight of the 1/4 cup of BRF? You want to know how much mushroom came from how much substrate material. I wouldn't calculate the weight of the verm into the equation, that's really not accurate nor a fair assesment of the cakes performance. That's like calculating in your casings and whatever else too.


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InvisibleTippinthru
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: creamcorn]
    #5915508 - 07/30/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

B/E is the weight of the DRY substrate, calculated against the yield in fresh fruit.
So, you would not calculate the vermiculite content.


--------------------
Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time...
[


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Offlinefaceyneck
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: Tippinthru]
    #5915852 - 07/30/06 06:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tippinthru said:
B/E is the weight of the DRY substrate, calculated against the yield in fresh fruit.
So, you would not calculate the vermiculite content.




I thought vermiculite WAS part of the PF substrate:

Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: sub·strate
Pronunciation: 's&b-"strAt
Function: noun
Etymology: Medieval Latin substratum
1 : SUBSTRATUM
2 : the base on which an organism lives <the soil is the substrate of most seed plants>
3 : a substance acted upon (as by an enzyme)

I might be wrong, but it seems to me that the vermiculite helps to regulate the water intake of the mycelium. So, the vermiculite may not be nutritious in the sense of having minerals and calories, but it still gives the cakes water, which seems to me to make it part of "the base on which an organism lives."


--------------------
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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: faceyneck]
    #5916034 - 07/30/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

technically, it is 'part of' the substrate. but its still not accuracte to include it as part of a BE equation. BE gives us insight as to how well the mushrooms utilitized the amount of nutrition started with. basically it tells us how much of the 'food' was converted into mushroom material. vermiculite does regulate moisture and in the case of cakes give them their structure, but it does not feed them nutrition, and therefore doesn't really count.

point is a cake is only a small percentage nutritious, whereas a jar of grain is 100% nutritious with no filler material in there wasting space. if i recall right a 1/4cup brf that goes into your half pint container is about 47g... so you'd use that number. whereas if you made up a half pint of grains, it would weigh significantly more. around 3/4 of your half pint container is filled with verm, between the verm mixed in and the dry layer... so it would be a more efficient use of the space you have to work with inside jars, inside your incubator, and so on, to work with something besides cakes.... thats the point i think everyone was trying to get at earlier in the discussion... considering BE just kind of confuses that point.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: creamcorn]
    #5916331 - 07/30/06 08:27 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

LOL. This argument will never be settled. We've seen it time and time again, with all the same points and counterpoints made over and over every single time. I can see some future civilization with nanoprobes instead of red blood cells flowing in their veins, saying "BRF is better because. . . ." with some blue skinned dude with three eyes arguing back about triptophans and other percursors.

I need someone to teach me how to make a pf cake. I've never to this day done one...lol
RR


--------------------
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InvisibleTippinthru
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5916412 - 07/30/06 08:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I never have either.

My significant other did several, trying to come up with a super cake recipe.

After awhile, he quit. Simply because a h/poo or compost tray spawned with colonized wbs, or grain, and cased dramatically outperformed any cake mix he ever made.


--------------------
Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time...
[


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Invisiblemonstermitch
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5916435 - 07/30/06 08:56 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
LOL.  This argument will never be settled.  We've seen it time and time again, with all the same points and counterpoints made over and over every single time.  I can see some future civilization with nanoprobes instead of red blood cells flowing in their veins, saying "BRF is better because. . . ." with some blue skinned dude with three eyes arguing back about triptophans and other percursors.

I need someone to teach me how to make a pf cake.  I've never to this day done one...lol
RR




:rofl2:
classic


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OfflineCantiSama

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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: coda]
    #5916815 - 07/30/06 10:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

coda said:IME brf doesnt suck because of the potency issues, it sucks because there are easier, cheaper, and more efficient methods available.




this is how i should have worded my post earlier. I've had great trips off BRF and never doubted potency, but as an economics/business major i have issues with efficiency.


--------------------
Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.


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Offlinewhatsthestorymg
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: CantiSama]
    #5916958 - 07/30/06 11:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

well i didn't mean to start this argument back up... I just wanted to know why i should try grain substrates. I made a couple of quart jars this afternoon with white, and red hulled millet in them. I got wild bird seed and used my strainer to remove the sunflower seeds...


--------------------
I pity the fool who don't enjoy a good cubie :mushroom2: :mrt: :mushroom2:
I pity the fool who don't enjoy a good van eyck  :mrt:

My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Cattle Prod of Loving Kindness


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OfflineOatman2000
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: whatsthestorymg]
    #5917866 - 07/31/06 07:23 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

you can colonize a qt jar of wbs or rye alot faster than a 1/2 pt. jar of brf.

you can shake grains, and have them colonize in 10 days. This increases times also, as well as being all organic.

grains are better... IME


--------------------
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: Oatman2000]
    #5918180 - 07/31/06 10:41 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think the vermiculite needs to be calculated into the BE. You have to treat the substrate as a homogeneous entity.

Otherwise you would come up with the same BE for BRF and PF mix. The PF mix should be lower for BE than straight BRF, but when you factor in the amount of BRF in each one you would see that the verm adds to the BE per gram of BRF.


-FF


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Offlinemr_minds_eye
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: whatsthestorymg]
    #5928066 - 08/03/06 09:14 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I used to do PF cakes. The n I quit being able to find the really premo vermiculite that I was used to (big squishy chunks) Instead all I could find was this really fine grainy stuff that looked like sand (or mud when it was wet) So I went Rye ($0.69lb) Cheap and efficient. Much easier sinse you don't have to fuck with a mixture. Plus vermicultie seems to get fucking EVERYWHERE. God damn that stuff is a pain in the ass to work with. Now since gas is so damn expensive ($10 round trip to get it from the only place in town plus a 45 min round trip) I have been using Kroger brand bird seed $1 for a 5lb bag. The mycelium seems to like it and its not inconvienient to aquire. So that is my case for whole grain. As far as strain goes, Mazapec is of reasonable potency and of the strains I have worked with (EQ, PB, PR, GT, Z-strain, South American, African, Haw., Maz, Ossira Indian, Brazilian, Mexican) it is the fastest colonizer by far. The first time I worked with it I thought that I had a cobweb mold contam problem in fact. I just hadn't seen anything go so quickly.


--------------------
Our quest for discovery fuels our creativity in all fields, not just science. If we reached the end of the line, the human spirit would shrivel and die. But I don't think we will ever stand still: we shall increase in complexity, if not in depth, and shall always be the center on an expanding horizon of possibilities.
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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: mr_minds_eye]
    #5928100 - 08/03/06 09:36 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I would revise my earlier statement about including vermiculite in the BE equation. If you say the BE for "BRF" then you wouldn't include it, but if you say the BE for "PF mix" or "verm/BRF" it should be included. That should keep things clear when figuring things out.


-FF


--------------------
It drinks the alcohol and abstains from the weed or else it gets the hose again. -Chemy

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