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whatsthestorymg
badwithgrains

Registered: 07/23/06
Posts: 123
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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Grain Substrates vs. BRF
#5913499 - 07/29/06 11:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Why would one want to use grain as opposed to simple BRF cakes. I got a hold of a pressure cooker so now that is an option at my disposal, but i dunno. Unless there's a good reason i'll just stick to cakes as I am only cultivating for personal enjoyment. hmm
-------------------- I pity the fool who don't enjoy a good cubie I pity the fool who don't enjoy a good van eyck My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Cattle Prod of Loving Kindness
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UnderNose
all out of bubble gum


Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 1,612
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Using grain to spawn more substrate like Horse poo or coir and casing it will give you more shrooms, and much more potent shrooms. Even using the grain as a substrate & casing it will work & should get you more shrooms than cakes. But there is a little more effort required.
These are some Z-strain shrooms that I grew, Started with a liquid culture,

got some grain going
  
then mixed that into some enriched coir substrate & cased it. (I would have spawned to poo if I had some)
 
  
 This was my first attempt at mushroom cultivation. It's not to hard as long as you read lots and understand what you are doing and why.
IMO I got a lot more shrooms than if I had done cakes, Over 200 dry grams from that grow  I don't know about the difference in potency I have never done cakes. But my shrooms get people pretty tripped out
-------------------- LAGM 2.022  
Edited by UnderNose (07/30/06 12:09 AM)
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ToTheExtreme, LOL
That Bug up yourAss


Registered: 05/26/06
Posts: 847
Loc: Where there's fresh powde...
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: UnderNose]
#5913727 - 07/30/06 01:18 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think grain is much more manageable, and STAR TREK RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
--------------------
  What can I say??? I like this shit!! You've been slissed! despisedicon said: We all know the reasons why 50 Cent and Korn are gay faggots. You suck at life and I'm not talking about the board game fella.
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CantiSama

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 794
Last seen: 4 months, 10 days
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BRF sucks. its slow as hell and you have to waste time dunking it after colonization. grains are way, way faster. ive gotten 1+ ounces dry from one flush on rye, way more than all flushes when i did BRF cakes.
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Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.
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HippieChick
Chicks can do it too!


Registered: 02/20/05
Posts: 5,958
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 3 years, 13 days
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: CantiSama]
#5914009 - 07/30/06 03:35 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
CantiSama said: BRF sucks. its slow as hell and you have to waste time dunking it after colonization. grains are way, way faster. ive gotten 1+ ounces dry from one flush on rye, way more than all flushes when i did BRF cakes.
BRF doesn't suck . As far as a nutritional standpoint goes , BRF is quite good . The problem is the ratio of BRF in cakes , 2:1:1 , 1 part BRF to 2 parts verm , a non nutritious medium , and water , another non-nutritious part . There's just not enough BRF in a cake to supply enough nutrients for monster flushes . BRF in itself is quite nutritious , there's just not enough of it in cakes to make cakes very prolific.
Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony Hippie Chick
-------------------- Peace,Love and Happiness HC Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.............. I LUV My Greenhouse http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848 My First Pans http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058
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CantiSama

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 794
Last seen: 4 months, 10 days
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: HippieChick]
#5914049 - 07/30/06 03:49 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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i suppose you are right, especially the amount of experience that you have, althought i still do not care for brf cakes in the least bit. it was good at first but after i did them twice i was done for good and moved on to rye. never looked back.
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Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand.
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Zen Peddler


Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: HippieChick]
#5914119 - 07/30/06 04:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Couldn agree less. Just because some has posted lots doesnt make them right. If you do a search there are a whole host of posts that demonstrate that BRF has lower nitrogen and tryptophan precursors than other substrates like millet and rye. If you make a cake with the same rations of millet and verm and another with the same amount of brf and verm, you will still get more, healthier, bigger, more potent cubies off the millet cake than you ever will off the brf cake. BRF is crap as a substrate period - its low in precursors and it nearly always grows smaller, less potent cubies.
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: Zen Peddler]
#5914231 - 07/30/06 06:13 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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> BRF is crap as a substrate period
By what standard?
The standard measure of the quality of a substrate is biological efficiency (BE). BRF has an excellent BE.
-FF
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Cubenisseur
Mad Props


Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 1,392
Loc: Indian Land
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: fastfred]
#5914316 - 07/30/06 07:09 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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quit confusing the newbs you guys!!
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: fastfred]
#5914346 - 07/30/06 07:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'll have to agree with Fred and HC. Not based on any kind of scientific proof, but just from personal experience. I've have some journeys on BRF grown shrooms that were just as powerful, if not more so, as any other substrate I've used. I used to think h/poo was better potency-wise, but lately I honestly don't notice much of a difference. As HC said, the only real difference I've noticed is quantity and size.
To the original poster: What you use depends on the quantity you want. If you just need a couple grams, stick with cakes. If you want ounces or pounds, go with cased grains or better yet, grains spawned to poo.
The debate on which substrate is best will probably go on forever because it's mostly based on opinion. The only substrate additive that has been scientifically documented to really increase potency is tryptamine, which is hard to come by.
--------------------
Quick WBS Prep
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shaman2b
Just anotherfreethinker


Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 174
Loc: in my head
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: FooMan]
#5914550 - 07/30/06 10:00 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I still use PF cakes occasionally, primarily for convenience when I am going to be out of town. Since the cakes take so damn long to colonize, I can be gone for 3 weeks and then they're ready to case when I get back.
I've never done straight PF and stuck it in the FC. I've always crumbled & cased. Using this method, the pinset and fruits are decent. The only problem I have is moisture -- sometimes I forget to dunk for the first flush, and man it shows.
Rye is nice, because it's super easy. Fast colonization, and you can case directly. I use WBS (millet) when I want to do poo or straw. All of these beat the hell out of PF for prolific flushes and nice fruits.
S2b
-------------------- I am merely transcribing the thoughts of my blind buddy; none of the things I write originate with me.
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jmg5
deadicated


Registered: 11/23/05
Posts: 635
Loc: miles above you
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: FooMan]
#5914551 - 07/30/06 10:01 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Even if it made no difference in the potency or size of the fruits, I'd still use grain. I've never had a rice cake colonize as fast as a rye or millet jar.
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coda
Banjo Goiter


Registered: 03/20/01
Posts: 8,750
Last seen: 10 months, 3 days
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: Zen Peddler]
#5914636 - 07/30/06 10:48 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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are we arguing about BRF potency again? There is no scientific data, or any evidence (minus some bioassays) that prove that BRF is any weaker or stronger then any other substrate.
However, i see no problem in arguing the fact that it's a poor performer and is often difficult to get prepped right. IME brf doesnt suck because of the potency issues, it sucks because there are easier, cheaper, and more efficient methods available.
-------------------- To get really high is to forget yourself. And to forget yourself is to see everything else. And to see everything else is to become an understanding molecule in evolution, a conscious tool of the universe. And I think every human being should be a conscious tool of the universe. . . . -JG i really am glad you came back to us instead of taking the other path. *hug* -A_S (RIP your final words to me will never be forgotten)
 Don't fuck with the laughing jesus.
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Cubenisseur
Mad Props


Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 1,392
Loc: Indian Land
Last seen: 13 years, 10 months
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: coda]
#5914687 - 07/30/06 11:14 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ahh...the voice of reason.
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Tippinthru
contented

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,131
Loc: "The Garden"...
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Quote:
whatsthestorymg said: Why would one want to use grain as opposed to simple BRF cakes. I got a hold of a pressure cooker so now that is an option at my disposal, but i dunno. Unless there's a good reason i'll just stick to cakes as I am only cultivating for personal enjoyment. hmm
A tray of colonized rye, cased & fruited will give you better B/E. Simply because, rye is 100% organic nutrient.
A cake mix contains a significant amount of non-nutrient Vermiculite.
Rye alone is easy, once you get the hang of it.
Wbs/grain, as spawn to h/poo, then cased is also easy. Once you get the hang of it.
Grain spawn to h/poo, or compost is near all 100% nutrient.
Which equals about the best possible B/E.
-------------------- Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time... [
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creamcorn
mad scientist


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: Tippinthru]
#5915315 - 07/30/06 03:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tippinthru said:
A cake mix contains a significant amount of non-nutrient Vermiculite.
Talking about BE, wouldn't you use the number of just the weight of the 1/4 cup of BRF? You want to know how much mushroom came from how much substrate material. I wouldn't calculate the weight of the verm into the equation, that's really not accurate nor a fair assesment of the cakes performance. That's like calculating in your casings and whatever else too.
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Tippinthru
contented

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 1,131
Loc: "The Garden"...
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: creamcorn]
#5915508 - 07/30/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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B/E is the weight of the DRY substrate, calculated against the yield in fresh fruit. So, you would not calculate the vermiculite content.
-------------------- Perfection is attained by slow degrees; it requires the hand of time... [
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faceyneck
Legitimate Philosopher


Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 2,421
Loc: upper body area
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: Tippinthru]
#5915852 - 07/30/06 06:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tippinthru said: B/E is the weight of the DRY substrate, calculated against the yield in fresh fruit. So, you would not calculate the vermiculite content.
I thought vermiculite WAS part of the PF substrate:
Merriam Webster:
Main Entry: sub·strate Pronunciation: 's&b-"strAt Function: noun Etymology: Medieval Latin substratum 1 : SUBSTRATUM 2 : the base on which an organism lives <the soil is the substrate of most seed plants> 3 : a substance acted upon (as by an enzyme)
I might be wrong, but it seems to me that the vermiculite helps to regulate the water intake of the mycelium. So, the vermiculite may not be nutritious in the sense of having minerals and calories, but it still gives the cakes water, which seems to me to make it part of "the base on which an organism lives."
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creamcorn
mad scientist


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: faceyneck]
#5916034 - 07/30/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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technically, it is 'part of' the substrate. but its still not accuracte to include it as part of a BE equation. BE gives us insight as to how well the mushrooms utilitized the amount of nutrition started with. basically it tells us how much of the 'food' was converted into mushroom material. vermiculite does regulate moisture and in the case of cakes give them their structure, but it does not feed them nutrition, and therefore doesn't really count.
point is a cake is only a small percentage nutritious, whereas a jar of grain is 100% nutritious with no filler material in there wasting space. if i recall right a 1/4cup brf that goes into your half pint container is about 47g... so you'd use that number. whereas if you made up a half pint of grains, it would weigh significantly more. around 3/4 of your half pint container is filled with verm, between the verm mixed in and the dry layer... so it would be a more efficient use of the space you have to work with inside jars, inside your incubator, and so on, to work with something besides cakes.... thats the point i think everyone was trying to get at earlier in the discussion... considering BE just kind of confuses that point.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
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Re: Grain Substrates vs. BRF [Re: creamcorn]
#5916331 - 07/30/06 08:27 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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LOL. This argument will never be settled. We've seen it time and time again, with all the same points and counterpoints made over and over every single time. I can see some future civilization with nanoprobes instead of red blood cells flowing in their veins, saying "BRF is better because. . . ." with some blue skinned dude with three eyes arguing back about triptophans and other percursors.
I need someone to teach me how to make a pf cake. I've never to this day done one...lol RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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