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OfflineNobodyCares
Whatever and ever, amen
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A hypothetical question...
    #5909412 - 07/28/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Okay I was just thinking about how different elements change states, i.e. they gain or lose energy and move from a solid to liquid to gas, right? So I was thinking about how on a large scale, say with a liter of water, you would have a clear aesthetic difference with each state. So here's what I was wondering:

Assume one molecule of H2O in a complete vacuum. Currently the temperature in the vacuum is -5 degrees celceus but the water molecule has no other molecules it can form ice crystals with. Is it frozen?

Now, if the temeperature were to increase in the vacuum, with no other molecules for the water to react with, would there be any discernable aesthetic change in the water as it heated up? This is assuming that you are looking at something other than temperature.


--------------------
The story goes, or the way that I was told
There was a king that always felt too high and then he fell too low
And so he called all the wise men to the hall
And begged them for a gift to end the rises and the falls
But here’s the thing, they came back with a ring
It was simple and was plainly unbefitting of a king
Engraved in black, it had no front or back
But there were words around the band that said
Just know: This Too Shall Pass


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OfflineNashbar
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Re: A hypothetical question... [Re: NobodyCares]
    #5909577 - 07/28/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

that's a very good question.

It's "Structure and Symmetry", so there aren't any real answers to that question.

It's not possible to measure or observe one molecule, and isolating one molecule is impossible.

On the contrary, the thermodynamics of phase equilibria would still hold for one molecule.  The gain or loss of energy would still occur at normal melting or boiling temperatures.  The one molecule will gain and lose free energy (degrees of freedom) the same as a bulk of molecules. 

Aesthetics can be deceiving when thinking about phases of matter.  I work with some solids that are softer than liquid water. 

:bongload: 

Hope that starts to answer your question, I'm not sober enough to go on and to drunk/high to continue.

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OfflineNobodyCares
Whatever and ever, amen
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Re: A hypothetical question... [Re: Nashbar]
    #5910862 - 07/29/06 12:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

That actually did answer it pretty well, I guess I was just trying to compare apples to oranges when it came to the mix of disciplines.


--------------------
The story goes, or the way that I was told
There was a king that always felt too high and then he fell too low
And so he called all the wise men to the hall
And begged them for a gift to end the rises and the falls
But here’s the thing, they came back with a ring
It was simple and was plainly unbefitting of a king
Engraved in black, it had no front or back
But there were words around the band that said
Just know: This Too Shall Pass


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InvisibleHELLA_TIGHT
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Re: A hypothetical question... [Re: NobodyCares]
    #5910898 - 07/29/06 01:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Isn't it going to need 3 molecules to be H2O?


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OfflineNobodyCares
Whatever and ever, amen
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Registered: 05/31/06
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Re: A hypothetical question... [Re: HELLA_TIGHT]
    #5910906 - 07/29/06 01:23 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It's 3 atoms to make H2O, which is a single molecule.


--------------------
The story goes, or the way that I was told
There was a king that always felt too high and then he fell too low
And so he called all the wise men to the hall
And begged them for a gift to end the rises and the falls
But here’s the thing, they came back with a ring
It was simple and was plainly unbefitting of a king
Engraved in black, it had no front or back
But there were words around the band that said
Just know: This Too Shall Pass


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OfflineSneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!
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Re: A hypothetical question... [Re: NobodyCares]
    #5910935 - 07/29/06 01:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

burn....

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InvisiblePapaverS
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Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
Loc: Radio Free Tibet!
Re: A hypothetical question... [Re: NobodyCares]
    #5910977 - 07/29/06 02:02 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

That's a very interesting question. Nashbar had a pretty good response to it, as I guess it would still be all about certain basic measurable parameters such as the excitement of the valence electrons of the atoms, and the distance of their orbits, etc.

In terms of macroscopic aesthetics (like what it would look like if it could be seen), without any neighbors to give it a structural context like a crystalline lattice, I don't think there would be a difference. It certainly would interact differently with its neighbors if you returned it to its neighborhood.

With the one molecule isolated like that, it really makes one wonder about how well its nature would hold up, without and neighbors to provide context or structure. I'm assuming that it would hold to its predictable model of behavior electron-wise, but I don't know a lot about the day-to-day functional mechanics of such things. If truly isolated like that, would it continue to be exactly that, a water molecule and behave the way it should, or would it become something different? Would the bonding break down and would it separate; no longer being a water molecule?

I dunno. It's a head scratcher, and you got me thinking in these wee small hours of the morning...

It is sort of blurring disciplines, it's like on the border of chemistry and physics. It's a very fascinating question, though, and it could go into a lot of disciplines. For example:

How many angels could ice skate on that one single frozen molecule of water?


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InvisibleHELLA_TIGHT
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Re: A hypothetical question... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5911026 - 07/29/06 02:26 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
burn....




It's not really a burn since I was asking a fucking question.


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Invisiblekoppie
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Re: A hypothetical question... [Re: NobodyCares]
    #5911082 - 07/29/06 03:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

NobodyCares said:


Assume one molecule of H2O in a complete vacuum. Currently the temperature in the vacuum is -5 degrees celceus but the water molecule has no other molecules it can form ice crystals with. Is it frozen?





No, as long as it isn't holding on to anything, it's a gas. To take an example from our daily surroundings (assuming you live in a cold climate), at -5C there is still a significant amount of water vapour in the air, even if there is snow on the ground. This vapour counts as a gas.

Quote:


Now, if the temeperature were to increase in the vacuum, with no other molecules for the water to react with, would there be any discernable aesthetic change in the water as it heated up? This is assuming that you are looking at something other than temperature.




There won't be a phase change, at these are the result of interactions with other molecules, but it would vibrate and rotate more wildly (which is about as close as a defenition of temperature you can give when you're dealing with one molecule) If the temperature gets high enough, the molecule will shake apart leaving one oxygen atom and two hydrogen atoms which after bouncing around for a while (assuming you're conducting your experiment in a box) may or may not meet up to form a H2 molecule.

At least that's what I seem to remember from physics class.

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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: A hypothetical question... [Re: Papaver]
    #5911124 - 07/29/06 03:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Papaver said:
t is sort of blurring disciplines, it's like on the border of chemistry and physics.




Everything I've learned thus far directs me to the conclusion that chemistry and physics blur together frequently and are entirely inseparable from one another.

If I had to separate the two fields to save my life, they'd find my corpse laying at the foot of a chalkboard covered with illustrations and equations, with the words "I give up" written in the bottom right.


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing

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InvisiblePapaverS
Madmin Emeritus?

Registered: 06/01/02
Posts: 26,880
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Re: A hypothetical question... [Re: Konnrade]
    #5911153 - 07/29/06 04:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

LoLz! :grin:

I think you're right...

koppie,

Good input. That sort of confirms my naive suspicions that the context of the molecule is kind of important to its phase state and maybe even it's internal structure/existence...

Since, I'm personally uncertain about just whether the water molecule would even remain a water molecule when stripped of the context of its neighboring water molecules and subjected to suggested temperature changes, maybe we should feed the single water molecule to Schrodinger's cat; he looks thirsty...


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OfflineOrganic
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Registered: 04/14/02
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Re: A hypothetical question... [Re: HELLA_TIGHT]
    #5911155 - 07/29/06 04:13 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

pwn3d!


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: A hypothetical question... [Re: Papaver]
    #5912213 - 07/29/06 02:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Papaver said:
LoLz! :grin:

I think you're right...

koppie,

Good input. That sort of confirms my naive suspicions that the context of the molecule is kind of important to its phase state and maybe even it's internal structure/existence...

Since, I'm personally uncertain about just whether the water molecule would even remain a water molecule when stripped of the context of its neighboring water molecules and subjected to suggested temperature changes, maybe we should feed the single water molecule to Schrodinger's cat; he looks thirsty...




I tried, but when I turned around he was gone.

Oh, that zany cat :kitty:


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing

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OfflineNashbar
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Re: A hypothetical question... [Re: Konnrade]
    #5912409 - 07/29/06 03:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

the explanation for the state of matter for one water molecule is the same as for one cat. It's impossible to observe isolated matter. open the box to try to measure something, and it's no longer isolated matter.

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