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OfflineGomp
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Water..
    #5910195 - 07/28/06 09:37 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

IS it so that, if there is no water, then there can not be no binding of the oxygen and the hydrogen?

:confused: :thumbup:


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Invisiblesupercollider
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Re: Water.. [Re: Gomp]
    #5910413 - 07/28/06 10:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well, if you didn't have any water to start with, you soon would!

I don't really understand your question.


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Supercollider? I just met her!


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Water.. [Re: supercollider]
    #5918556 - 07/31/06 01:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Hum..

I wish I could rephrase it.
I just started learning about this, and it amazes me!

If you got some time, and bother, .. could you write up some basic ideas, concerning these kind of fusions.

Like where do I start? He he..

oxygen and the hydrogen <-- are those like some Axiom-structures, existing purely without the need of any other substance?

Thank you for replying! :wink::thumbup:

I do realize I can get this information off of, www.answers.com, and similar stuff.
But; what is a chemical binding, in the relation to hydrogen, and oxygen?!

I can't stop talking.. ..so I must!


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Disclaimer!?


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Re: Water.. [Re: Gomp]
    #5919778 - 07/31/06 08:13 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

IS it so that, if there is no water, then there can not be no binding of the oxygen and the hydrogen?

Two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen bound by the electric force exerted by the atoms' electrons IS water.

You don't need water to bind them... water IS those three atoms bound together.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Water.. [Re: Gomp]
    #5921050 - 08/01/06 05:01 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

> But; what is a chemical binding, in the relation to hydrogen, and oxygen?!

What Diploid said. Keeping it very simple... An atom has two basic parts: a small nucleus at the center and a cloud of electrons around the nucleus. The number of protons in the nucleus determine what element the atom is. Hydrogen only has one proton at the center while oxygen has eight. The number of electrons in the cloud around the nucleus must match the number of protons; therefore, hydrogen has one electron while oxygen has eight electrons.

Molecules, such as a water molecule, are clumps of atoms that are stuck together. In the case of water, there are three atoms total: one oxygen and two hydrogen (H2O) in each molecule of water.

Now is where things start to get nasty. Again, keeping this simple (more than accurate)... the electrons in the cloud around the atom hang out in a sort of multi-level parking garage that wraps all the way around the nucleus. The electrons like to be as close to ground level as possible, but there are only so many parking spots on each level of the garage. The electrons also don't like to leave a level in the garage empty. (Every atom has an identical parking garage... the number of electrons in the garage change, but the layout of the garage is identical in every case.)

Hydrogen, having only one proton, has one electron. However, the lower level of the parking garage holds two electrons. This means that each hydrogen atom has an extra parking space that it wants to fill up.

Oxygen, having eight protons, has eight electrons. It is able to fill up its lower level with two electrons, leaving six free. It can also fill up the second level, which also holds two electrons, leaving four free. The third level can hold six electrons, not just two. However, oxygen only has four electrons (after filling up the lower two levels) remaining, but six parking spots. This leaves two empty parking spaces that oxygen wants to fill.

When two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom come together (with a little energy to help), they see that if they share electrons among each other, they can all keep the last level of their parking garage full. Each hydrogen atom will share it's one electron with the oxygen atom, adding two more electrons total to oxygen, filling it's third level garage (four from oxygen + one from hydrogen + one from hydrogen = six total). In turn, the oxygen atom will share one of its electrons with the hydrogen atom so that the hydrogen atom can fill its first level parking garage (one from hydrogen + one from oxygen = two total). The sharing is what "sticks" the atoms together to form a molecule.

Once the atoms are sharing electrons, it takes "effort" to break them apart. This is why water doesn't fall apart into oxygen and hydrogen without help.

Again, I am trying to keep this simple rather than accurate. I am ignoring the difference between polar and non-polar covalent bonds, ionic bonds, etc.

Going a bit past what you asked... helium has two protons, which means it has two electrons. We already said the lower level of the parking garage holds two electrons. Since helium has two, and the lower level holds two, helium is happy all by itself. It doesn't need or want anybody else to help fill up the garage like hydrogen and oxygen do. This is why helium doesn't react chemically with any other atoms.

One final point. In chemistry, all the magic happens with the electrons and the "parking garages". The nucleus of the atom is in a sanctuary that is not touchable. This is why alchmists could not change lead to gold. The nucleus determines the type of atom (gold, lead, hydrogen, etc) while the electrons determine the type of molecules that can form. The alchemists were playing with electrons and "parking garages" just as chemists do today. When we start to play with the nucleus of the atom, we start to play with nuclear fusion and fission, a completely different topic.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Water.. [Re: Seuss]
    #5921452 - 08/01/06 10:52 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Do they have parking garages in Iceland?

Or wherever Gomp is from.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Invisibleivi
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Re: Water.. [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5922170 - 08/01/06 03:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

He's from Mysticism, Religion, & the Paranormal forum :tongue2:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Water.. [Re: Seuss]
    #5928040 - 08/03/06 08:53 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> But; what is a chemical binding, in the relation to hydrogen, and oxygen?!

What Diploid said.  Keeping it very simple... An atom has two basic parts: a small nucleus at the center and a cloud of electrons around the nucleus.  The number of protons in the nucleus determine what element the atom is.  Hydrogen only has one proton at the center while oxygen has eight.  The number of electrons in the cloud around the nucleus must match the number of protons; therefore, hydrogen has one electron while oxygen has eight electrons.

Molecules, such as a water molecule, are clumps of atoms that are stuck together.  In the case of water, there are three atoms total: one oxygen and two hydrogen (H2O) in each molecule of water.

Now is where things start to get nasty.  Again, keeping this simple (more than accurate)... the electrons in the cloud around the atom hang out in a sort of multi-level parking garage that wraps all the way around the nucleus.  The electrons like to be as close to ground level as possible, but there are only so many parking spots on each level of the garage.  The electrons also don't like to leave a level in the garage empty.  (Every atom has an identical parking garage... the number of electrons in the garage change, but the layout of the garage is identical in every case.)

Hydrogen, having only one proton, has one electron.  However, the lower level of the parking garage holds two electrons.  This means that each hydrogen atom has an extra parking space that it wants to fill up. 

Oxygen, having eight protons, has eight electrons.  It is able to fill up its lower level with two electrons, leaving six free.  It can also fill up the second level, which also holds two electrons, leaving four free.  The third level can hold six electrons, not just two.  However, oxygen only has four electrons (after filling up the lower two levels) remaining, but six parking spots.  This leaves two empty parking spaces that oxygen wants to fill.

When two hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom come together (with a little energy to help), they see that if they share electrons among each other, they can all keep the last level of their parking garage full.  Each hydrogen atom will share it's one electron with the oxygen atom, adding two more electrons total to oxygen, filling it's third level garage (four from oxygen + one from hydrogen + one from hydrogen = six total).  In turn, the oxygen atom will share one of its electrons with the hydrogen atom so that the hydrogen atom can fill its first level parking garage (one from hydrogen + one from oxygen = two total).  The sharing is what "sticks" the atoms together to form a molecule.

Once the atoms are sharing electrons, it takes "effort" to break them apart.  This is why water doesn't fall apart into oxygen and hydrogen without help.

Again, I am trying to keep this simple rather than accurate.  I am ignoring the difference between polar and non-polar covalent bonds, ionic bonds, etc.

Going a bit past what you asked... helium has two protons, which means it has two electrons.  We already said the lower level of the parking garage holds two electrons.  Since helium has two, and the lower level holds two, helium is happy all by itself.  It doesn't need or want anybody else to help fill up the garage like hydrogen and oxygen do.  This is why helium doesn't react chemically with any other atoms.

One final point.  In chemistry, all the magic happens with the electrons and the "parking garages".  The nucleus of the atom is in a sanctuary that is not touchable.  This is why alchmists could not change lead to gold.  The nucleus determines the type of atom (gold, lead, hydrogen, etc) while the electrons determine the type of molecules that can form.  The alchemists were playing with electrons and "parking garages" just as chemists do today.  When we start to play with the nucleus of the atom, we start to play with nuclear fusion and fission, a completely different topic.




Reading that made my brain tingle! :smile:

Thank you ever so much for the basic idea. :wink: :thumbup:

Thanks!  :grin:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Water.. [Re: Seuss]
    #5942169 - 08/07/06 08:42 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"...held together by chemical forces"

From www.dictionary.com.

SO is it really this simple, (when "keeping it simple"), that this "chemical forces", is the exchange of the "cars"?

:strokebeard:

This is really helpfull BTW, thanks again! :heartpump:


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InvisibleTODAY
Battletoad
Male

Registered: 09/25/03
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Re: Water.. [Re: Gomp]
    #5942379 - 08/07/06 09:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

that link is just to dictionary.com.  what was the definition we were substitute 'chemical force' for 'cars'??

May i suggest that you take an intro physics or chemistry class?  You have a lot of questions that these classes would answer.  I just took intro physics this summer (took it in high school but way more comprehensive curriculum at a community college) :thumbup:


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Water.. [Re: TODAY]
    #5942514 - 08/07/06 10:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, it is just to ...
Read the posts.. !?

If you do not bother, then in short; it is "a molecule".

And, you just suggested it!? Of course you may! :wink::thumbup:

I do not live in America, [as you assumed?], but; in Noway..
I do not have such "classes" to go to, (yet!). (A bit different school system.)

I do however wish to do it. And once I "master" sleeping, (Waking up in the morning by "alarm". etcetere) [and/or find another sulution. :grin: ] I will do such a thing...
But, all the things in time.

As of now, you guys are my only "teachers". :smile:


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Water.. [Re: Gomp]
    #5943232 - 08/08/06 04:18 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

> that this "chemical forces", is the exchange of the "cars"?

Keeping it very simple, yes... It is the electromagnetic force between the electrons and protons that hold molecules together.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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