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InvisibleZippoZM
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Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 13,227
Loc: Pongyang, North Korea
Re: EROEI - A Lesson in Energy Sources [Re: trendal]
    #5919777 - 07/31/06 08:13 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

think of the massive amount of nuclear waste that is produced, with no long term plan for its storage?

i think that even canada has this problem, and this is a large amount of waste, ALOT. And from what i remember easily convertable to weapons grade material.


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PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: EROEI - A Lesson in Energy Sources [Re: ZippoZ]
    #5919882 - 07/31/06 08:44 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Nuclear waste isn't really "waste" - it still contains most of the energy it had in the first place.

Current long-term storage practices have proven more than adequate for spent nuclear fuels. Storing them long-term as they are, with the ability to access them if need be, allows for future advances in fission technology - reactors will be invented that are able to use the energy still remaining in nuclear "waste".


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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InvisibleZippoZM
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Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 13,227
Loc: Pongyang, North Korea
Re: EROEI - A Lesson in Energy Sources [Re: trendal]
    #5919926 - 07/31/06 08:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

yeah i suppose, for most of the countries that refine the waste, which i believe are all but the usa..... :frown:

we have a LOT of nuclear waste laying about on site at all of the nuclear facilities. and despite the fact that one day we might be able to use it, there has to be somewhere to put it in the mean time.

this stuff is highly toxic, and is also a security issue as it can be used to create irty bombs and so on.

So for now it sits distributed through out the country on site at nuclear power plants. the proposition on hand is to bury it all in nevada, the countries wasteland, but having all of that waste in one place just dosent sound good to me



im a bit jaded for a few reasons in regard to nuclear waste. the remains of the manhattan project are burried about 10 miles from my house. i have been to the site where they are burried, and stood on top of them. back in the 50's and 60's the government had a storage solution, it was to bury the shit, with a concrete cap over it, nothing under it.

lo and behold it got into some local municipalities drinking water :blush: what a shock.

so i personally do not trust that our vission of "safe Storage" well into the future could possibly , in any way, be all seeing and expecting every curve ball that will, in time, be thrown at it.


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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InvisibleTODAY
Battletoad
Male

Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
Re: EROEI - A Lesson in Energy Sources [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #5920433 - 07/31/06 11:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
The laws of thermodynamics trump those of economics in the long term.




I won't live any more than another 80 years tops and my love of the smoke and the drink will only bring that number down. I don't need to worry about the sun running out in my blink of the eye existence.


--------------------

ca'rouse (k-rouz)
intr.v.
To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,587
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Re: EROEI - A Lesson in Energy Sources [Re: trendal]
    #5925349 - 08/02/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
Trendal, I don't think you mentioned EROEI as a cost per unit analysis. I think you talked about it as an energy input vs energy ouput kind of analysis when it really is only necessary to consider the cost per input and the profit or loss per output.

No, I purposely left out any talk of financial costs...as in the end financial costs make no difference. You can't beat the laws of thermodynamics, no matter how much money you have :wink:




I think you're making a mistake by ignoring economics. All energy is not equal. Some forms of energy have more value than others. There is alot of energy in a 5 gallon bucket of warm water, "equivalent" to about 20 Oz. of gasoline, or 2 lbs. of wood, but it is not in a very useable form.

It all comes down to how much energy you use and how effectively you use it... and by "use" I mean you had it in a valuable useable form, then you "used" it, and then it was rendered unuseable.

Worrying about running out of energy is silly, almost as silly as worrying about running out of matter. What you should be worried about is running out of structure/order.

Once we have put all our stored energy (stored in matter in the form of fuel) through the process of going from a high state of order (fuel) to a low state of order (waste heat) then our system (society) will follow  the second law of thermodynamics and begin to decay as well.

Social entropy.


--------------------
Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


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InvisibletrendalM
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Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: EROEI - A Lesson in Energy Sources [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5926343 - 08/02/06 06:28 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think you're making a mistake by ignoring economics.

EROEI has its place in economics, no doubt, but the angle I am speaking from is 100% thermodynamics. That's why I purposely leave out any economics - it just doesn't have a bearing on the physics concept of EROEI.

Worrying about running out of energy is silly

Worrying about anything is silly :wink:

Social entropy.

Entropy is a core function of this universe.

Social structures are also a function of this universe, thus they obey all underlying functions/laws including entropy.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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