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Phishe
Lysergic Bliss


Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 2,908
Loc: Planet Earth
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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OldWoodSpecter said:
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Phishe said: something i just realized about jesus, is that he was completely oblivious to space. Things that were "found out" later in time, he did not know.... don't you think that the son of god should know things like this?
I don't mean any harm to anyone by saying this, i'm simply just bringing this out.
Any discussion?
I don't understand what you are saying. Which things did he not know? How do you know he didn't know?
Was he supose to teach apostoles quantum physics? What for? What possible benefit to their spirituality would that have?
Are you more spiritual person when you buy a new TV? Is that progress? It's just a plastic piece of junk, like everything man builds, true spirituality is within us, all else is just amusement.
I'm just trying to see the way jesus thought of the world. There have been new discoveries since then. Like the world being round for instance. Did jesus think it was a rectangle? How would we know?
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: If I was an allknowing dude who decided to give some hints to humanity, I wouldn't give a damn what they find credible or not, I gave them the truth, and they can do with it what they want. If they can't trust me without proof, they don't deserve the truth anyway.
What value, purpose, and meaning would there be if humanity simply trusted and believed one's assertions? Belief without understanding is meaningless and serves no benefit. Belief with understanding is justified.
If such a person were all-knowing, then they would realize this and would know exactly how to interact with humanity in order for humanity to proceed on a path of coming to know it for themselves.
Such an all-knowing person certainly does not seem to be concerned with humanity or its well-being. Also, a belief cannot stem from any other source than oneself, so, without an appropriate understanding, such a belief is baseless anyways. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: If I was an allknowing dude who decided to give some hints to humanity, I wouldn't give a damn what they find credible or not, I gave them the truth, and they can do with it what they want. If they can't trust me without proof, they don't deserve the truth anyway.
What value, purpose, and meaning would there be if humanity simply trusted and believed one's assertions? Belief without understanding is meaningless and serves no benefit. Belief with understanding is justified.
If such a person were all-knowing, then they would realize this and would know exactly how to interact with humanity in order for humanity to proceed on a path of coming to know it for themselves.
Such an all-knowing person certainly does not seem to be concerned with humanity or its well-being. Also, a belief cannot stem from any other source than oneself, so, without an appropriate understanding, such a belief is baseless anyways. 
 Peace.
Ok, so I was this dude that made humans, well I didn't make them so that they are like me: an aincient being that had eons to learn all those things. No, I made them like you make instant coffee. I made them to know just enough to know where to turn to, how to orient their lives. I don't require their understanding, just their trust. Some of them are retards, some of them are simply stupid, some of them are uneducated. Where would I get if I asked for everyones understanding? How can I expect a retard to reach my level of understanding when even their most intelligent minds are retards compared to me? I train them like I'd train a dog. To be on my side and trust me. But hey, if one of those dogs is showing signs that he can really understand, I'm ready to let him into my house because we can talk. For the rest of them, I have a special dog house, which I call heaven. But I won't let all dogs in there either, because some of them have been defiled by one of my dog watchers who feels he should have gotten an early promotion
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: Ok, so I was this dude that made humans, well I didn't make them so that they are like me: an aincient being that had eons to learn all those things. No, I made them like you make instant coffee. I made them to know just enough to know where to turn to, how to orient their lives. I don't require their understanding, just their trust.
And why exactly should they give you your trust? Why do you deserve their trust? What is the benefit that they receive from trusting you?
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Some of them are retards, some of them are simply stupid, some of them are uneducated. Where would I get if I asked for everyones understanding? How can I expect a retard to reach my level of understanding when even their most intelligent minds are retards compared to me?
You could expect them to reach a level at which they could understand if you provided for them to understand. I don't expect anyone to be able to understand what kind of person I am unless I give them information with which to form an understanding. I don't expect anyone working with me in my department to understand what to do or why to do it unless I give them information that they can utilize to determine what to do and why they do it.
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I train them like I'd train a dog. To be on my side and trust me.
Thus, you set limits on the extent of your relationship with them. The more I give to others for them to understand me, the more we can interact with each other on higher levels, and to greater degrees. I do not dictate their relationship to me, I interact with them to create a relationship, I give them oppurtunities for them to develop themselves so that we can relate in greater ways.
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But hey, if one of those dogs is showing signs that he can really understand, I'm ready to let him into my house because we can talk. For the rest of them, I have a special dog house, which I call heaven.
The God that Jesus described is one who is most interested in saving the ones who have strayed from the flock, the ones that God has to seek out.
In all honesty, I wonder if the God that you allude to in such a manner is really the one that exists, if it exists. Perhaps it is another way, and you just did not understand? 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: Phishe]
#5913079 - 07/29/06 08:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Phishe said: I'm just trying to see the way jesus thought of the world. There have been new discoveries since then. Like the world being round for instance. Did jesus think it was a rectangle? How would we know?
It was rather common knowledge in Jesus' day that the earth was round.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: Silversoul]
#5913085 - 07/29/06 08:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: And why exactly should they give you your trust? Why do you deserve their trust?
I made them from scratch, their consciousness is my at my will
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What is the benefit that they receive from trusting you?
the truth
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You could expect them to reach a level at which they could understand if you provided for them to understand. I don't expect anyone to be able to understand what kind of person I am unless I give them information with which to form an understanding. I don't expect anyone working with me in my department to understand what to do or why to do it unless I give them information that they can utilize to determine what to do and why they do it.
The truth that I did give them is in such a form that they can understand. I've sent my people, and I've made some of them such that they can speak for me.
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Thus, you set limits on the extent of your relationship with them. The more I give to others for them to understand me, the more we can interact with each other on higher levels, and to greater degrees. I do not dictate their relationship to me, I interact with them to create a relationship, I give them oppurtunities for them to develop themselves so that we can relate in greater ways.
I didn't make them to be my buddies, but as a jewl in the crown of the planet earth. Earth is my work of art, and they are the cherry on top, but still they are my art, not my equals. I want them to be the eyes that see my earth, the consciousness to experience all its beauty, and a hand to protect it. So that they share my sentiments about earth, I made them on my own image, so that they can be my hand down there. Of course, then the dog watcher screwed things up, but I'll deal with him in time.
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The God that Jesus described is one who is most interested in saving the ones who have strayed from the flock, the ones that God has to seek out.
Where's the confusion? I'll save everyone who lets themselfs be saved.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Substantiate.
Rephrase
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: Silversoul]
#5913106 - 07/29/06 08:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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You assert that such was common knowledge in that specific time, and I encourage you to give us some information that you have considered in forming that assertion. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: You assert that such was common knowledge in that specific time, and I encourage you to give us some information that you have considered in forming that assertion. 
 Peace.
Well when Jesus ascended up into heavens, even if he didn't know it before, he must have seen that the earth is round from up there
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: I made them from scratch, their consciousness is my at my will
Clarify, the statement doesn't make sense.
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the truth
And how do they know that what you give them is the truth?
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I did give them is in such a form that they can understand. I've sent my people, and I've made some of them such that they can speak for me.
Wait, you said that they cannot understand, so they must simply trust. If they can understand, then they will understand, but you stated that not all understand. For being all-knowing, you certainly contradict yourself a lot. Did you know that? 
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I didn't make them to be my buddies, but as a jewl in the crown of the planet earth. Earth is my work of art, and they are the cherry on top, but still they are my art, not my equals.
So you created people to serve your needs, not to simply be people. Little play things to satisfy yourself. 
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I want them to be the eyes that see my earth, the consciousness to experience all its beauty, and a hand to protect it.
Why would they need to protect it? Did you make it wrong?
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So that they share my sentiments about earth, I made them on my own image, so that they can be my hand down there.
To be honest, if these are your sentiments about earth, you are a twisted fuck. If we are in your image, then I would hate to look in the mirror if I were you. 
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Of course, then the dog watcher screwed things up, but I'll deal with him in time.
Which is to say, then, in your all-knowingness, you screwed up. 
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Where's the confusion? I'll save everyone who lets themselfs be saved.
If you want them to be saved, then they will be made to let themselves be saved, as you made them. Remember, they are your play things, and you do with them what you want, and look at what they do. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Phishe
Lysergic Bliss


Registered: 01/21/06
Posts: 2,908
Loc: Planet Earth
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:
fireworks_god said: You assert that such was common knowledge in that specific time, and I encourage you to give us some information that you have considered in forming that assertion. 
 Peace.
Well when Jesus ascended up into heavens, even if he didn't know it before, he must have seen that the earth is round from up there
I never knew that you travel through space to reach heaven
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: Well when Jesus ascended up into heavens, even if he didn't know it before, he must have seen that the earth is round from up there
Well, if Jesus realized this when he ascended into heaven, then it was past Jesus' time, and this doesn't explain how it would be common knowledge during his time, now inn'it? 
Don't try to be too clever, now. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Very well, then. Sailors had noticed for centuries that the horizon on the ocean was curved, and that the sun went below the horizon before the light from it went out. Also, one famous Greek scientist(I want to say Ptolemy, but I'm not sure) measured the circumference of the earth with surprising accuracy for his day by observing the angle of the shadow that the sun cast on two different wells, one of which was in Europe, and another in Africa. It was also well known that the earth cast a round shadow on the moon. Now, I suppose I might have overshot it by saying it was common knowledge at the time, but it would have at least been widely known among anyone with any sort of education, as well as sailors. It would have been widely known enough that I suspect even common people would have know, though I could be wrong.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: Phishe]
#5913153 - 07/29/06 08:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phishe said:
Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:
fireworks_god said: You assert that such was common knowledge in that specific time, and I encourage you to give us some information that you have considered in forming that assertion. 
 Peace.
Well when Jesus ascended up into heavens, even if he didn't know it before, he must have seen that the earth is round from up there
I never knew that you travel through space to reach heaven
Well you aren't going to stop in the sky, are you? Haven was a word for sky, it later became a synonime for some alternative dimension or whatever, but heaven is originally the sky and everything above earth. Stars and sun were in heaven. Angels came from heaven, from above, from the sky, and so did god. And so did Jesus go up there.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said: Well when Jesus ascended up into heavens, even if he didn't know it before, he must have seen that the earth is round from up there
Well, if Jesus realized this when he ascended into heaven, then it was past Jesus' time, and this doesn't explain how it would be common knowledge during his time, now inn'it? 
Don't try to be too clever, now. 
 Peace.
It was not me who said it was common knowledge
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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But you were the one who offered it as an explanation of why it was common knowledge at the time. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: Silversoul]
#5913168 - 07/29/06 08:41 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: Very well, then. Sailors had noticed for centuries that the horizon on the ocean was curved, and that the sun went below the horizon before the light from it went out. Also, one famous Greek scientist(I want to say Ptolemy, but I'm not sure) measured the circumference of the earth with surprising accuracy for his day by observing the angle of the shadow that the sun cast on two different wells, one of which was in Europe, and another in Africa. It was also well known that the earth cast a round shadow on the moon. Now, I suppose I might have overshot it by saying it was common knowledge at the time, but it would have at least been widely known among anyone with any sort of education, as well as sailors. It would have been widely known enough that I suspect even common people would have know, though I could be wrong.
Excellent. Its amazing what we can know about our environment and how we come to know it (even more amazing when compared to the alternative).
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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I don't really think that it has an importance or if that proves that Jesus was ignorant, now being able to "predict" the upcoming technology lol. If God or Jesus knew and know how humans will turn up eventually and everything that's going to happen, that what's the point of all this, what's the point of us? Jesus came to make us understand that OUR future and OUR spirits "goodness", envelopment or whatever you want to call it, depends on US and the way we decide to live, feel and act. That's what's important. Did Buddha knew about technology? No, and still he did the same thing as Jesus.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Clarify, the statement doesn't make sense.
their consciousness is like the sound of an instrument, and I made the instrument. I designed the DNA chain, I designed the anatomy, the brain etc. When you turn on the switch, consciousness comes on
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And how do they know that what you give them is the truth?
As I'm teaching them not to lie to one another, so I teach them to trust one another. As everyone is inocent until proven guilty, so is every statement truth until proven otherwise. When it is proven otherwise, the shame is not on the one who trusted, but on the one who lied. The victims of lies shall be compensated. I have shown myself to some of them, and it is up to others to trust those people. Trust is a risk, people don't take risks because they are afraid, they don't want to lose things. But my humans are supose to be ready to lose things, ready to not care, ready to cast aside their pride.
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Wait, you said that they cannot understand, so they must simply trust. If they can understand, then they will understand, but you stated that not all understand. For being all-knowing, you certainly contradict yourself a lot. Did you know that? 
they will understand the truth, what it means, what is what, but they will not understand why it is so, and how it works. That is the part I don't expect them to understand.
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So you created people to serve your needs, not to simply be people. Little play things to satisfy yourself. 
Yes, they satisfy me. Is it wrong of an engineer to make a machine that serves his needs?
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Why would they need to protect it? Did you make it wrong?
Not from itself, but from outside things. There are others who wish to claim it.
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Which is to say, then, in your all-knowingness, you screwed up. 
No, I didn't, In the end everything is as I wish, and you just have to wait and see the end. It was not me who screwed up. Just as it is with humans, I made all beings under me such that they can do as they please. I did not program the eternity of my angels or the lives of my people. They live their own lives and chose what to do. I do not directly control their will, I can only send messages
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If you want them to be saved, then they will be made to let themselves be saved, as you made them. Remember, they are your play things, and you do with them what you want, and look at what they do. 
I made their bodies and gave them souls, but I did not make their choices. I do see their choices till the end, but I didn't make them.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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