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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: kotik]
    #5909051 - 07/28/06 02:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
I was under the impression that Jesus was not in fact a historical person, and more of an metaphor himself.



There is a theory that says that. Personally, I don't find the arguments for that to be very convincing.


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OfflinePhishe
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: Gomp]
    #5909163 - 07/28/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
Quote:

Phishe said:
something i just realized about jesus, is that he was completely oblivious to space. Things that were "found out" later in time, he did not know.... don't you think that the son of god should know things like this?

I don't mean any harm to anyone by saying this, i'm simply just bringing this out.

Any discussion?




Is "your" picture of Jesus, .. A man who's father is the "man God", .. you know, that bearded dude?

Or 'you' see it as "Jesus said", that we are all God's children, and that it is nothing more special about the other, than the other..

Just "eager to learn" your view.. :wink::thumbup:

I am curious!  :grin:




Well, I actually do not believe in god. I do however believe jesus was a living human in that time. I think the bible however, should not be taken as literally as it is. It is more fables that teach us lessons, and not the words of god. Thats just the way i see it.


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Offlinetallgreen
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: Phishe]
    #5909183 - 07/28/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I agree. The bible should be a story book to teach by example, not a rule book.

"Believing in God" seems like a silly concept to me. It's like saying "I believe in the universe". It's too bad the common understanding of what god is, is a human-like entity up in space watching us, maybe sitting on a big chair with a white beard in a robe. Ridiculous. People in high school used to preach to me when they would discover I was an atheist. Like, "you have to believe in god otherwise you won't ever get to the golden gates of heaven". And I was thinking, "Gold? Why would that be valuable in heaven?".


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles


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OfflineRRRR
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: kotik]
    #5909203 - 07/28/06 03:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)


This hieroglyph depicts Horus' annunciation in the first frame, the impregnation by the holy spirit in the second frame, and the birth and receipt of gifts from 3 visitors in the third frame.

Though I do believe Jesus was an actual historical figure, I do indeed question the influence of mythology on how he is perceived as today.


--------------------
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)


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OfflineZinc
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: Phishe]
    #5909561 - 07/28/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phishe said:
something i just realized about jesus, is that he was completely oblivious to space. Things that were "found out" later in time, he did not know.... don't you think that the son of god should know things like this?

I don't mean any harm to anyone by saying this, i'm simply just bringing this out.

Any discussion?





In answer to your question, I doubt there is much of a problem to Christianity if Jesus wasn't aware of all the advances in knowledge that would come.

What is a problem to Christianity, however, is that Jesus was a false prophet who predicted that his "second coming" would happen in the first century.

Quote:

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. (Matthew 16:27-28 KJV)




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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: Zinc]
    #5909583 - 07/28/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Jesus also uses the phrase "shall not taste death" in the Gospel of Thomas. Here's the exact quote: "Whoever discovers what these sayings mean shall not taste death." Do you really think he was being literal there? Or perhaps he was using metaphor and symbolism, like he always did.


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OfflineZinc
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: Silversoul]
    #5909640 - 07/28/06 05:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Jesus also uses the phrase "shall not taste death" in the Gospel of Thomas. Here's the exact quote: "Whoever discovers what these sayings mean shall not taste death." Do you really think he was being literal there? Or perhaps he was using metaphor and symbolism, like he always did.




In Matthew 16:27-28, Jesus doesn't appear to be using metaphor or symbolism when he says, "There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death...". Not as far as I can see. There are other verses in the Bible which support the idea that Jesus predicted his "second coming" for the first century. Let me quote one Bible scholar:

"The second of the problems mentioned above -- if Jesus expected God to change the world, he was wrong -- is by no means novel. It arose very early in Christianity. This is the most substantial issue in the earliest surviving Christian document, Paul's letter to the Thessalonians. There, we learn, Paul's converts were shaken by the fact that some members of the congregation had died; they expected the Lord to return while they were all still alive. Paul assured them that the (few) dead Christians would be raised so that they could participate in the coming kingdom along with those who were still alive when the Lord returned. The question of just how soon the great event would occur appears in other books of the New Testament. A saying in the synoptics (discussed more fully below) promises that 'some standing here' will still be alive when the Son of Man comes. In the appendix to the Gospel of John (ch. 21), however, Jesus is depicted as discussing an anonymous disciple, called 'the disciple whom Jesus loved', with Peter: 'If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?' The author then explains, 'So, the rumour spread in the community that this disciple would not die. Yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?"' (John 21.21-3).

The history of these adjustments to the view that God would do something dramatic while Jesus' contemporaries were still alive is fairly easy to reconstruct. Jesus originally said that the Son of Man would come in the immediate future, while his hearers were alive... Then, when people started dying, they [the followers of Jesus] said that some would still be alive. When almost the entire first generation was dead, they maintained that one disciple would still be alive. Then he died, and it became necessary to claim that Jesus had not actually promised even this one disciple that he would live to see the great day. By the time we reach one of the latest books of the New Testament, 2 Peter, the return of the Lord has been postponed even further: some people scoff and say, 'Where is the promise of his coming?' But remember, 'with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day' (2 Peter 3.3-8). The Lord is not really slow, but rather keeps time by a different calendar.

In the decades after Jesus' death, then, the Christians had to revise their first expectations again and again. This makes it very probable that the expectation originated with Jesus. We make sense of these pieces of evidence if we think that Jesus himself told his followers that the Son of Man would come while they still lived. The fact that this expectation was difficult for Christians in the first century helps prove that Jesus held it himself. We also note that Christianity survived this early discovery that Jesus had made a mistake very well."

E.P. Sanders (1993) The Historical Figure of Jesus, Penguin.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: Phishe]
    #5912193 - 07/29/06 02:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phishe said:
something i just realized about jesus, is that he was completely oblivious to space. Things that were "found out" later in time, he did not know.... don't you think that the son of god should know things like this?

I don't mean any harm to anyone by saying this, i'm simply just bringing this out.

Any discussion?




I don't understand what you are saying. Which things did he not know? How do you know he didn't know?

Was he supose to teach apostoles quantum physics? What for? What possible benefit to their spirituality would that have?

Are you more spiritual person when you buy a new TV?
Is that progress? It's just a plastic piece of junk, like everything man builds, true spirituality is within us, all else
is just amusement.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Edited by OldWoodSpecter (07/29/06 02:14 PM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: Zinc]
    #5912282 - 07/29/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Paul also can be seen to have taken the apocalyptic message of the end of the world seriously, bidding people not to marry or plan a future. On the other hand, a Gnostic Christian interpretation of Paul suggests a more 'fully-realized eschatology' with the Kingdom of God here and now and realizable (as in the Gospel of Thomas) instead of the 'partially-realized eschatology' in which the bulk of the fulfillment lies in a future time - a mythological construct like the Golden Age in Indian thought (versus the evil Kali-Yuga in which we now dwell) in which 'the lion will lie down with the lamb.' Unlikely that a lion will lose its lion-nature, or that predation in nature will cease in any historical sense, but tell that to the Jehova's Witnesses.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: Phishe]
    #5912425 - 07/29/06 03:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phishe said:
Quote:

Gomp said:
Quote:

Phishe said:
something i just realized about jesus, is that he was completely oblivious to space. Things that were "found out" later in time, he did not know.... don't you think that the son of god should know things like this?

I don't mean any harm to anyone by saying this, i'm simply just bringing this out.

Any discussion?




Is "your" picture of Jesus, .. A man who's father is the "man God", .. you know, that bearded dude?

Or 'you' see it as "Jesus said", that we are all God's children, and that it is nothing more special about the other, than the other..

Just "eager to learn" your view.. :wink::thumbup:

I am curious!  :grin:




Well, I actually do not believe in god. I do however believe jesus was a living human in that time. I think the bible however, should not be taken as literally as it is. It is more fables that teach us lessons, and not the words of god. Thats just the way i see it.





Well..

Do this for me?

Go to erowid..


Take 3994 Trip reports..

Then read them all, and compile them in to a book..
What do you get?


Go figure?

:grin: :thumbup:
:heartpump:


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5912467 - 07/29/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Paul also can be seen to have taken the apocalyptic message of the end of the world seriously, bidding people not to marry or plan a future. On the other hand, a Gnostic Christian interpretation of Paul suggests a more 'fully-realized eschatology' with the Kingdom of God here and now and realizable (as in the Gospel of Thomas) instead of the 'partially-realized eschatology' in which the bulk of the fulfillment lies in a future time - a mythological construct like the Golden Age in Indian thought (versus the evil Kali-Yuga in which we now dwell) in which 'the lion will lie down with the lamb.' Unlikely that a lion will lose its lion-nature, or that predation in nature will cease in any historical sense, but tell that to the Jehova's Witnesses.




Well, accoarding to the theory of evolution, a lio can become anything or may have become a killer from peacefull animal etc.
So never say never.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5912531 - 07/29/06 04:35 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

If it did change, then it wouldn't be a lion. We do not call a bird a dinosaur.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5912544 - 07/29/06 04:40 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
We do not call a bird a dinosaur.



Actually, some zoologists do exactly that. Many now talk about the extinction event that wiped out "all non-avian dinosaurs."


--------------------


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: Silversoul]
    #5912563 - 07/29/06 04:50 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Why not create one, all-encompassing term with which to refer to every distinct species? My statement was not appropriate, as indeed "birds" and "dinosaurs" are groups of animals, and it makes sense to refer to birds as dinosaurs, regardless of common usage.

My point, of course, is that it is foolish to propose that, according to evolution, a lion may become a herbivore. The distinctions between a carnivore and a herbivore are considerable, and it would take enormous amounts (from our frame of reference) of time and subtle changes over that time to produce a "lion" that is a herbivore - by that time, if such did occur, the result would not be  a lion, by all means.

I consider this to be a typical misunderstanding and application of the theory of evolution to support one's baseless faith - sort of like proclaiming that, since our conceptions of the universe, derived through science, change so much, that our present understanding could definitely be wrong, so, therefore, there is no arguement agansit creationism. I watched that Richard Dawkins documentary last night and that evangelist tried that one. He tells Richard Dawkins to not be arrogant in the process, but his own arrogant sense of superiority was emanting from his expressions. What a loser. :thumbdown:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5912564 - 07/29/06 04:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
If it did change, then it wouldn't be a lion. We do not call a bird a dinosaur.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




It would If we called it that.

In fact, every individual lion is different, yet we all call them with the same name.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5912578 - 07/29/06 04:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
It would If we called it that.




No, it would not. With our current description and classification of a lion, any noticeable change in the characteristics of a lion would thus imply a different animal. We can decide to call a dog a cow, but that does not make a dog the same as what we currently refer to as a cow. Playing word games to justify a belief that lions and lambs will literally lay together, or whatever the fuck it was, is nonsense - but then again, so is such a belief. :smirk:

Quote:


In fact, every individual lion is different, yet we all call them with the same name.




And yet all lions share the exact characteristics by which we categorize all of these different animals as lions. There are several subspecies of lion as well, which thus denotes different aspects amongst lions, but these differences are not very signifigant.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5912589 - 07/29/06 05:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Why not create one, all-encompassing term with which to refer to every distinct species? My statement was not appropriate, as indeed "birds" and "dinosaurs" are groups of animals, and it makes sense to refer to birds as dinosaurs, regardless of common usage.

My point, of course, is that it is foolish to propose that, according to evolution, a lion may become a herbivore. The distinctions between a carnivore and a herbivore are considerable, and it would take enormous amounts (from our frame of reference) of time and subtle changes over that time to produce a "lion" that is a herbivore - by that time, if such did occur, the result would not be  a lion, by all means.

I consider this to be a typical misunderstanding and application of the theory of evolution to support one's baseless faith - sort of like proclaiming that, since our conceptions of the universe, derived through science, change so much, that our present understanding could definitely be wrong, so, therefore, there is no arguement agansit creationism. I watched that Richard Dawkins documentary last night and that evangelist tried that one. He tells Richard Dawkins to not be arrogant in the process, but his own arrogant sense of superiority was emanting from his expressions. What a loser. :thumbdown:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




humans can be carnivores and herbivores, and they can even chose to be one or another.
With enough generations of being vegetarians, our digestive system would adopt.

About the development of science. Well yea, today we are so ignorant that it's funny, and half of our theories are probably wrong, some percentage always is.
BY the way people talk, you'd think humans are a species that understands the universe, and then you go on the street and you see the ironic reality:
we still live on one planet, we still die, we still can't control our own weather, animal life etc.
We are not masters of the universe. He who knows all the sicrets of the univers can easily come up with a way to control it. Every rule can be taken advantage of by making a machine that uses it.
There is nothing wrong in being weak and ignorant as humans are, but it's pathetic when people consider themselfs enlightened and advanced.

Well nature has a sense of poethic justice.
A human being will brag how enlightened and allknowing it is, but at the end of the day, it will die and smell bad, and nature will prove its point: humans are no different than leaves or bacteria, only more complex


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5912595 - 07/29/06 05:04 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
It would If we called it that.




No, it would not. With our current description and classification of a lion, any noticeable change in the characteristics of a lion would thus imply a different animal. We can decide to call a dog a cow, but that does not make a dog the same as what we currently refer to as a cow. Playing word games to justify a belief that lions and lambs will literally lay together, or whatever the fuck it was, is nonsense - but then again, so is such a belief. :smirk:

Quote:


In fact, every individual lion is different, yet we all call them with the same name.




And yet all lions share the exact characteristics by which we categorize all of these different animals as lions. There are several subspecies of lion as well, which thus denotes different aspects amongst lions, but these differences are not very signifigant.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




alright then whatever, what's the point of this anyway?
A lion can change, and names are just names


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5912604 - 07/29/06 05:10 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
humans can be carnivores and herbivores, and they can even chose to be one or another.
With enough generations of being vegetarians, our digestive system would adopt.




Yes, with enough generations, perhaps, but a lion will not survive to propagate one generation by eating plants. The odds of lions becoming vegetarians = even more slim. The only reason why lions would possibly be pressured to change into vegetarians would be the lack of prey to consume, but the lack of prey to consume would suggest the lack of food for prey to consume....

Lions will simply go extinct before they start eating salads, most assuredly.

Quote:


About the development of science. Well yea, today we are so ignorant that it's funny, and half of our theories are probably wrong, some percentage always is.




Which is exactly why baseless beliefs that are not supported by any substantiation are more likely to be wrong. :lol:

Quote:


We are not masters of the universe. He who knows all the sicrets of the univers can easily come up with a way to control it. Every rule can be taken advantage of by making a machine that uses it.




Knowing the secrets of the universe is not congruent with wishing to control the universe. If one understood the universe, then one would not need to control it, as the universe controls itself.

Quote:


There is nothing wrong in being weak and ignorant as humans are, but it's pathetic when people consider themselfs enlightened and advanced.




It's even more pathetic when weak and ignorant humans convince themselves of delusions that are not even supported by evidence in their environment. We cannot be perfect, but I would at least wish to be less delusional. :smirk:

Quote:


A human being will brag how enlightened and allknowing it is, but at the end of the day, it will die and smell bad, and nature will prove its point: humans are no different than leaves or bacteria, only more complex




So, humans feel self-important, but they are not, so this means that faith is justified and lions will lay with lambs, and you are just discrediting humans' sense of knowing stuff about reality to justify something they feel they know about reality? Or was this just an unrelated rant? :wtf:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Jesus was ignorant [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5912773 - 07/29/06 06:13 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Not if those "baseless" beliefs come from entities who DO have the detailed knowledge about the universe.

If I was an allknowing dude who decided to give some hints to humanity, I wouldn't give a damn what they find credible or not, I gave them the truth, and they can do with it what they want. If they can't trust me without proof, they don't deserve the truth anyway.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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