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KingOftheThing
the cool fool


Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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the root of all evil
#5907324 - 07/27/06 11:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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is a documentary about religion by an amazing biologist named Richard Dawkins
here is a preview clip of him inerviewing a wacko evangelical about evolution http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmNjfpoRZpE
here is the full documentary: part1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB2vmj8eyMk part2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kcKInudkq4 part3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76UDVB-ofpI
Edited by KingOftheThing (07/27/06 11:17 PM)
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Mushouse
Mycomancer

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 500
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Claiming that you are "not an animal" is arrogance.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


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Re: the root of all eveil [Re: Mushouse]
#5907551 - 07/28/06 12:24 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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The animal kingdom is ripe with interspecies-killing, territorial scraps, unconscious sexuality and an insatiable desire to quench all primal thirsts. Ok - maybe not THAT different than some of the behavior of humans. The difference though is that a dumb beast doesn't know any beter. They're neither moral nor immoral. They are amoral. Humans on the other hand are able to choose whether to regress to animalistic primacy or wisely rise above it, effectively taking advantage of a thing called reason; which animals lack entirely.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

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Re: the root of all eveil [Re: Basilides]
#5907839 - 07/28/06 02:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Humans on the other hand are able to choose whether to regress to animalistic primacy or wisely rise above it, effectively taking advantage of a thing called reason; which animals lack entirely.
How can you claim to know this?
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
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Just a hunch after encountering various different types of people.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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porcupine
Stranger

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As soon as I read it was by Richard Dawkins I lost interest.
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


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Re: the root of all evil [Re: porcupine]
#5907999 - 07/28/06 04:46 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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in theory, the root of all evil, is goodness.
and the root of all goodness is evil. funny how that works.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


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Re: the root of all evil [Re: kotik]
#5908027 - 07/28/06 05:09 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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> in theory, the root of all evil, is goodness.
More than just theory. You have a gem in there, if you can see it.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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cloudtop
Stranger


Registered: 08/16/04
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Loc: bespin
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Re: the root of all evil [Re: Seuss]
#5908540 - 07/28/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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The root of all evil is belief in it.
The Dawkins piece is pretty entertaining if you're down with the open confrontation of established religion, but I think he puts too much merit in an innate morality stemming from secular humanism. On the one hand he goes so far to end the assumptions about 'god' and on the other he crashes right back into an imaginary heaven where man just knows what is right or wrong.
-------------------- peacefromabovecloudtop
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Phonerothyme
Audiomancer


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Re: the root of all eveil [Re: Basilides]
#5911071 - 07/29/06 02:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Basilides said: Humans on the other hand are able to choose whether to regress to animalistic primacy or wisely rise above it, effectively taking advantage of a thing called reason; which animals lack entirely.
Hahaha, bullshit. Humans made up morals. We're just as much of instinctual beasts as dogs are, we just have a more advanced nervous system and countless living systems which have given us the delusion of significance. We just happened to be the animals which ended up with a couple of free appendages who mastered the use of tools and fire as a result. That doesn't mean we're divine. To suggest so is horrendously childish.
We aquired what you call "reason" as a result of the safety we developed through the use of tools and fire, and likely also as a result of the use of psychedelic mushrooms which allowed us to be aware of things in new perspectives and think about things other than sexing and eating. When we didn't have to be constantly focused on surviving, we began to have time to reflect on our actions, and began to think things out more thoroughly. "Reason" is a result of our minds adapting to our cultures rather than our needs and our surroundings.
-------------------- http://erothyme.net
Edited by TheRaiRai (07/29/06 03:04 AM)
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
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If a dog kills another dog, it is not immoral. If a human kills another human, it is immoral and it is murder because humans should be consciously aware that killing is wrong. Failing to recognize this is subversion. For those who believe there is nothing wrong in animalistic selfishness to the point where murder and blatant criminality materialize, they can argue on behalf of all murderers and rapists all they want. They don't call these subhumans "beasts" for nothing.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Phonerothyme
Audiomancer


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Re: the root of all eveil [Re: Basilides]
#5911226 - 07/29/06 05:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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You are incredibly culturally brainwashed and appear to be pseudointellectual enough that it would likely be impossible to hold a debate with you. Regardless:
A dog killing a dog and a human killing a human are the same in all ways aside from culturally and in complexity of motive. The entire suggestion that anything at all is "wrong" or "immoral" is 100% pure unadulterated opinion.
-------------------- http://erothyme.net
Edited by TheRaiRai (07/29/06 05:56 AM)
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


Registered: 06/29/04
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Quote:
TheRaiRai said:The entire suggestion that anything at all is "wrong" or "immoral" is 100% pure unadulterated opinion.
I would have to agree. Herodotus would doo, circa 440 B.C.E.
Quote:
Darius, after he had got the kingdom, called into his presence certain Greeks who were at hand, and asked- "What he should pay them to eat the bodies of their fathers when they died?" To which they answered, that there was no sum that would tempt them to do such a thing. He then sent for certain Indians, of the race called Callatians, men who eat their fathers, and asked them, while the Greeks stood by, and knew by the help of an interpreter all that was said - "What he should give them to burn the bodies of their fathers at their decease?" The Indians exclaimed aloud, and bade him forbear such language. Such is men's wont herein; and Pindar was right, in my judgment, when he said, "Law is the king o'er all."
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


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And you have been brainwashed by the self-centric weltanschauung of moral relativism - also opinions. Sartre, one of many to broach moral relativism, observed that most people on some level hold a variation of moral code, a form of authenticism. Authenticism! Personally, I cannot think of any other philosophy that is more obtuse and subjective. Aside from sending intuition to the grave, there are enough people in this world creating living hells out of their own view of what is "moral". Fortunately, moral intuition is conventional in most societies, hence why some things are simply universally deplorable.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Phonerothyme
Audiomancer


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Re: the root of all eveil [Re: kotik]
#5911394 - 07/29/06 08:36 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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First of all, I never said or implied that either I or my worldview was particularly self-centric, only that there was nothing wrong with those who are. Of course, I never said I/it wasn't, but you definately made an interesting assumption.
Secondly, your post had little to do with the argument of whether or not humans are somehow "moral" and able to tell the difference between a universal and unquestionable "right and wrong." Though it should be mentioned that in your comment about people's "own view[s] of what is 'moral'," you even imply yourself that the idea of morality is subjective.
Also, no matter how universally deplorable or universally accepted something is, that doesn't automatically cause it to be truth. It is still merely a common opinion.
-------------------- http://erothyme.net
Edited by TheRaiRai (07/29/06 08:42 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Quote:
TheRaiRai said: You are incredibly culturally brainwashed and appear to be pseudointellectual enough that it would likely be impossible to hold a debate with you. Regardless:
A dog killing a dog and a human killing a human are the same in all ways aside from culturally and in complexity of motive. The entire suggestion that anything at all is "wrong" or "immoral" is 100% pure unadulterated opinion.
I have difficulty with this being cut and dried as fact. The dog can plan, and can in fact perform morally or immorally according to whether or not it wants to be good - generally they do want to be good, but it may want to be utterly self serving; I have seen dogs get crooked ideas and act them out as if nobody were looking (a secretive sneaky slouch sets in...).
Humans also may kill without moral issues i.e. when it is utterly accidental or reflexive, defensive. But most of the time when humans kill it is premeditated, and sneaky. The self serving caution away from killing is the key moral element.
I believe the self keeps track of it's own fairness vs sneakiness and treats itself to its own form of justice (karma). Even the most crooked and self serving mind can recognize its position in its own fairness schema. Some however can be declared psychopathic, these may really have fallen off the edge of morality into an entirely autonomous robotic yuckiness.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Yes, I'm sure there was no evil before religion.
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cloudtop
Stranger


Registered: 08/16/04
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Loc: bespin
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Good and evil are human constructs based upon a highly advanced socialized value system. Yes, we are animals and we are subject to the same biological instincts. Yes, we are humans and we are 'in control' of our instincts so much as we maintain conscious awareness of them and direct our will towards the resolution of particular goals and value systems. We're both. Either way, we're still subject to the same basic laws of nature. One of these is survival in the face of adversity (whether it be an oppressive society, a direct predator, or what have you). To 'murder' in the name of self-persistence is the simple role of any life-oriented individual.
Morality, however, is not universal. Do not get its cultural ubiquity and some common traits deceive you into believing that all people maintain a universal set of morals. If anything all morality is descended from a singular lineage (arguably correlated to the origins of theism and reinforced by the advent of agriculture). I believe, however, that a close observation of the various remaining indigenous cultures might yield some anomalies to the prevailing 'universals'.
Morality can only exist under the purview of an omnipotent being. People don't kill because we've created a value system which suggests it is largely not a successful behavior (for the individuals involved as well as for the society) and thus have chosen to decriminalize it. Unfortunately a fair number of criminalized activities, as we well know, have not been founded upon a prior observation/demonstration of their insustainability or lack of utility for our society and thus there is a continued confusion about the origin of our laws: they can be logically justified only among singularly-minded cultural value systems and cannot withstand the burden of a falsely universal morality.
-------------------- peacefromabovecloudtop
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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I'm just partway through the first video, and I notice how he's already making a slippery slope fallacy. He talks about the worshippers at Lourdes cathedral, and how it's a slippery slope to strapping bombs to one's chest. Reminds me of politicians who say that smoking pot is a slippery slope to shooting heroin. Amazing how such a "man or reason" can make such an irrational leap.
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TODAY
Battletoad


Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
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Thanks for the linkage KOTT. I was looking for something to do this afternoon, now I've found it
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ca'rouse (k-rouz) intr.v. To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: the root of all evil [Re: TODAY]
#5912848 - 07/29/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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true, a dog can learn morality from the culture it is brought up in as easily as a man. culture shapes morality but it fits more than just humans - honest I have seen it on dogs, and owls and I suspect there is a culture in the forest as I have seen some creatures in the wild do odd things that defy the distinctions of humanity vs nature.
I am not even that much of a nature boy.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


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Quote:
redgreenvines said: true, a dog can learn morality from the culture it is brought up in as easily as a man. culture shapes morality but it fits more than just humans - honest I have seen it on dogs, and owls and I suspect there is a culture in the forest as I have seen some creatures in the wild do odd things that defy the distinctions of humanity vs nature.
I am not even that much of a nature boy.
You mean like sentimental squirells buttfucking wild hogs?
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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where did you see that? I question environmental pollution wherever the 3 legged frog shows up but butt hogs chosing squirlfriends is more than I want to know about.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: the root of all eveil [Re: Basilides]
#5913235 - 07/29/06 09:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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If a primate child (humans included) is neglected by a mother for the first three months of their life, generally they become self-mutilating and display behaviors that are psychopathic. These neglected primates never are able to form normal social relationships or communicate plus often violently harm others and themselves. There behavior is often quite similar to autism, although usually more violent, and the two should not be confused. In other words, "conscience", "moral responsibility", "empathy", etc, seems very much determined by the environment.
If morality was engrained into the psyche of (wo)man, why would this apparent lack of morality happen?
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TODAY
Battletoad


Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
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I'm now a big fan of Richard Dawkins.
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ca'rouse (k-rouz) intr.v. To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
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I'm not saying humans are born without any connection to their primitive backdrop (afterall, with the behavior of alot people this is fairly obvious). I'm just saying people are very much capable of rising above it.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: the root of all evil [Re: TODAY]
#5913414 - 07/29/06 10:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think Richard Dawkins is a pompous ass with an ego the size of Long Island. For one thing, his interviews with these people show that he is not interested in interviewing them, but simply belittling them. I don't have a problem with people being skeptical or even critical of religion(I think Michael Shermer has been very civil about it), but in that video, Richards Dawkins comes across as nothing more than a bully.
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michael_lifshitz
Student


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Re: the root of all evil [Re: Silversoul]
#5913901 - 07/30/06 02:57 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah, I really don't like the way he goes about stating his opinions in this movie.
Silversoul said it nicely.
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cloudtop
Stranger


Registered: 08/16/04
Posts: 66
Loc: bespin
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In all of the discussion forums I've seen threads regarding this series, "Dawkins is a pompous ass with too muc opinion" tends to be the most common complaint. Though there are quite a few critcisms I'd agree with, this is perhaps the one I'm least supporting of.
Rather than continue a brief history of disbelief (where Jonathan Miller left off), Dawkins seems to continue in the tradition of The End of Faith to demonstrate just how inexcusably harmful religion continues to be to the world. Of course the view will come off as divisive and superior -- it is both these things. Too much time has been spent coddling the religious in hopes to at least make room for a secular worldview: the result? Continued religious fanaticism.
End the god thought now. It won't cure the world of its irrationality, but it definitely is holding the world back from any possible progress.
-------------------- peacefromabovecloudtop
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TODAY
Battletoad


Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
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Re: the root of all evil [Re: Silversoul]
#5914446 - 07/30/06 08:50 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: I think Richard Dawkins is a pompous ass with an ego the size of Long Island. For one thing, his interviews with these people show that he is not interested in interviewing them, but simply belittling them. I don't have a problem with people being skeptical or even critical of religion(I think Michael Shermer has been very civil about it), but in that video, Richards Dawkins comes across as nothing more than a bully.
I see your point, he does seem interested in belittling them at many points during their conversation. I do think these people's beliefs need to not only be prodded or poked, but stabbed and twisted when their moral code begins to turn into law when it doesn't make logical sense. Islamic law...well, I can say I'm very glad not to live under those rules.
I also have a huge problem with religious education (one of his main points being that children inherit their parent's religion and are exposed to no alternative modes of thinking as a result) because I grew up going to Catholic school. Their doctrination had me paralyzed for so long because it was the only doctrination I was being fed and it made no sense but my fear of hell kept me quiet and going through the motions. I know religous people mean well, but IMO they are misguided and when they brainwash children they do a lot of damage. I have a pretty big chip on my shoulder thanks to that school and its probably the reason I'm such a cynic regarding religion. In this way, I believe that Dawkins is sticking up for people like me.
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ca'rouse (k-rouz) intr.v. To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Quote:
Poster: MushmanTheManic Subject: Re: the root of all eveil
If a primate child (humans included) is neglected by a mother for the first three months of their life, generally they become self-mutilating and display behaviors that are psychopathic. These neglected primates never are able to form normal social relationships or communicate plus often violently harm others and themselves. There behavior is often quite similar to autism, although usually more violent, and the two should not be confused. In other words, "conscience", "moral responsibility", "empathy", etc, seems very much determined by the environment.
If morality was engrained into the psyche of (wo)man, why would this apparent lack of morality happen?

I really think you are on to something here. Once bitten, twice shy. The neglected human at age 2 months who has problems relating to others and forming intimate bonds and lashes out in anger is no different than the gorilla in the zoo separated from his mother at birth and going through similar feelings of being neglected.
The human suckled, held and loved at 0-3 months who finds it easy to relate to others and form intimate bonds in adulthood also finds it easy to call the neglected child who acted out in the worst way and murdered someone "evil". That human can't relate to the other human.
I do believe that mostly it is environment that makes a person "act out" and do bad things. Many people are in jail because their parents either abused them or neglected them or both at an early age led them to their bitterness towards all people and willingness to hurt others just as they have been hurt. Maybe it's evil to take an eye for an eye but it is in the bible. Or one part of it anyway.
Which brings me to another point, evil is the what a particular religion or society or group or whoever wants to believe it is. For those who think there are "universal morality codes" (UMCs) in all parts of the world, you are dreaming. Whether it is OK to murder, maim or molest (MMM) depends on where you live in the world far more than any individuals UMC.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: the root of all evil [Re: cloudtop]
#5914639 - 07/30/06 10:50 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
cloudtop said: Rather than continue a brief history of disbelief (where Jonathan Miller left off), Dawkins seems to continue in the tradition of The End of Faith to demonstrate just how inexcusably harmful religion continues to be to the world. Of course the view will come off as divisive and superior -- it is both these things. Too much time has been spent coddling the religious in hopes to at least make room for a secular worldview: the result? Continued religious fanaticism.
This might be true, but I think that perhaps if he were to invest his time in promoting and encouraging critical thinking and promoting a better understanding of reality, it would naturally work agansit delusional religious belief.
You know, promote awareness, or something, instead of simply proclaiming "religion is this, science is that, religion is wrong". 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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cloudtop
Stranger


Registered: 08/16/04
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Fireworks_god: and indeed, anybody familiar w/ Dawkins' formidable tome and the influence he's had on countless individuals could do little more than laud his dedication to a soundly logical worldview. Dawkins -- like Sam Harris and other authors -- simply seems to be approaching an apex of disbelief in which he can no longer tolerate living in a world of peculiarly unaware individuals with a penchant for degrading the world with their ignorance of it.
Not that it is for me to decide his view.
-------------------- peacefromabovecloudtop
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: the root of all evil [Re: cloudtop]
#5914738 - 07/30/06 11:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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No, you are incredibly right, I felt the same impression when watching the documentary. The impression of the evangelist was frightful, and not surprising that he holds conference calls with Bush and Blair.
I've already witnessed an intelligent, aware individual reach the same conclusion and seek to actively expose delusion by directly addressing it when it is expressed, and that individual got banned, specifically due to the fact that he continued to do so when those with the ability to exercise their judgement presented illogical modes of thought.
I'm simply saying that I think the best approach is to simply transcend the notion of reacting to such detrimental thoughts and behaviors and exist as the ultimate expression of the beneficial, preferred state. The more he address religion in such a manner, the less he is actively advancing our understanding of reality by exploring reality with his field.
Ultimately, I might be thinking that it just isn't effective, as it simply directs the illogical freaks' gaze directly at science. I think the documentary might empower the delusion, and I sensed that the evangelist was tweaking out with the sense of gaining power.
You know what I mean? 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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"Do not try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig."
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: the root of all evil [Re: Veritas]
#5914864 - 07/30/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Sooouuuieee Ben Afflack
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool


Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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what scared me was how he talks about american style crazy nutjob evangelical christianity is spreading. i hope we can stop this spread. it didnt take long for islamic fundamentalism to spread like wildfire and set the middle east further back into the dark ages....of course we have israels creation to thank for that shit
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