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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: the root of all evil [Re: TODAY]
#5912848 - 07/29/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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true, a dog can learn morality from the culture it is brought up in as easily as a man. culture shapes morality but it fits more than just humans - honest I have seen it on dogs, and owls and I suspect there is a culture in the forest as I have seen some creatures in the wild do odd things that defy the distinctions of humanity vs nature.
I am not even that much of a nature boy.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: true, a dog can learn morality from the culture it is brought up in as easily as a man. culture shapes morality but it fits more than just humans - honest I have seen it on dogs, and owls and I suspect there is a culture in the forest as I have seen some creatures in the wild do odd things that defy the distinctions of humanity vs nature.
I am not even that much of a nature boy.
You mean like sentimental squirells buttfucking wild hogs?
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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where did you see that? I question environmental pollution wherever the 3 legged frog shows up but butt hogs chosing squirlfriends is more than I want to know about.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: the root of all eveil [Re: Basilides]
#5913235 - 07/29/06 09:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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If a primate child (humans included) is neglected by a mother for the first three months of their life, generally they become self-mutilating and display behaviors that are psychopathic. These neglected primates never are able to form normal social relationships or communicate plus often violently harm others and themselves. There behavior is often quite similar to autism, although usually more violent, and the two should not be confused. In other words, "conscience", "moral responsibility", "empathy", etc, seems very much determined by the environment.
If morality was engrained into the psyche of (wo)man, why would this apparent lack of morality happen?
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TODAY
Battletoad


Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
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I'm now a big fan of Richard Dawkins.
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ca'rouse (k-rouz) intr.v. To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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I'm not saying humans are born without any connection to their primitive backdrop (afterall, with the behavior of alot people this is fairly obvious). I'm just saying people are very much capable of rising above it.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: the root of all evil [Re: TODAY]
#5913414 - 07/29/06 10:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think Richard Dawkins is a pompous ass with an ego the size of Long Island. For one thing, his interviews with these people show that he is not interested in interviewing them, but simply belittling them. I don't have a problem with people being skeptical or even critical of religion(I think Michael Shermer has been very civil about it), but in that video, Richards Dawkins comes across as nothing more than a bully.
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michael_lifshitz
Student


Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 436
Loc: here
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Re: the root of all evil [Re: Silversoul]
#5913901 - 07/30/06 02:57 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah, I really don't like the way he goes about stating his opinions in this movie.
Silversoul said it nicely.
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cloudtop
Stranger


Registered: 08/16/04
Posts: 66
Loc: bespin
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In all of the discussion forums I've seen threads regarding this series, "Dawkins is a pompous ass with too muc opinion" tends to be the most common complaint. Though there are quite a few critcisms I'd agree with, this is perhaps the one I'm least supporting of.
Rather than continue a brief history of disbelief (where Jonathan Miller left off), Dawkins seems to continue in the tradition of The End of Faith to demonstrate just how inexcusably harmful religion continues to be to the world. Of course the view will come off as divisive and superior -- it is both these things. Too much time has been spent coddling the religious in hopes to at least make room for a secular worldview: the result? Continued religious fanaticism.
End the god thought now. It won't cure the world of its irrationality, but it definitely is holding the world back from any possible progress.
-------------------- peacefromabovecloudtop
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TODAY
Battletoad


Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
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Re: the root of all evil [Re: Silversoul]
#5914446 - 07/30/06 08:50 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: I think Richard Dawkins is a pompous ass with an ego the size of Long Island. For one thing, his interviews with these people show that he is not interested in interviewing them, but simply belittling them. I don't have a problem with people being skeptical or even critical of religion(I think Michael Shermer has been very civil about it), but in that video, Richards Dawkins comes across as nothing more than a bully.
I see your point, he does seem interested in belittling them at many points during their conversation. I do think these people's beliefs need to not only be prodded or poked, but stabbed and twisted when their moral code begins to turn into law when it doesn't make logical sense. Islamic law...well, I can say I'm very glad not to live under those rules.
I also have a huge problem with religious education (one of his main points being that children inherit their parent's religion and are exposed to no alternative modes of thinking as a result) because I grew up going to Catholic school. Their doctrination had me paralyzed for so long because it was the only doctrination I was being fed and it made no sense but my fear of hell kept me quiet and going through the motions. I know religous people mean well, but IMO they are misguided and when they brainwash children they do a lot of damage. I have a pretty big chip on my shoulder thanks to that school and its probably the reason I'm such a cynic regarding religion. In this way, I believe that Dawkins is sticking up for people like me.
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ca'rouse (k-rouz) intr.v. To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Quote:
Poster: MushmanTheManic Subject: Re: the root of all eveil
If a primate child (humans included) is neglected by a mother for the first three months of their life, generally they become self-mutilating and display behaviors that are psychopathic. These neglected primates never are able to form normal social relationships or communicate plus often violently harm others and themselves. There behavior is often quite similar to autism, although usually more violent, and the two should not be confused. In other words, "conscience", "moral responsibility", "empathy", etc, seems very much determined by the environment.
If morality was engrained into the psyche of (wo)man, why would this apparent lack of morality happen?

I really think you are on to something here. Once bitten, twice shy. The neglected human at age 2 months who has problems relating to others and forming intimate bonds and lashes out in anger is no different than the gorilla in the zoo separated from his mother at birth and going through similar feelings of being neglected.
The human suckled, held and loved at 0-3 months who finds it easy to relate to others and form intimate bonds in adulthood also finds it easy to call the neglected child who acted out in the worst way and murdered someone "evil". That human can't relate to the other human.
I do believe that mostly it is environment that makes a person "act out" and do bad things. Many people are in jail because their parents either abused them or neglected them or both at an early age led them to their bitterness towards all people and willingness to hurt others just as they have been hurt. Maybe it's evil to take an eye for an eye but it is in the bible. Or one part of it anyway.
Which brings me to another point, evil is the what a particular religion or society or group or whoever wants to believe it is. For those who think there are "universal morality codes" (UMCs) in all parts of the world, you are dreaming. Whether it is OK to murder, maim or molest (MMM) depends on where you live in the world far more than any individuals UMC.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: the root of all evil [Re: cloudtop]
#5914639 - 07/30/06 10:50 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
cloudtop said: Rather than continue a brief history of disbelief (where Jonathan Miller left off), Dawkins seems to continue in the tradition of The End of Faith to demonstrate just how inexcusably harmful religion continues to be to the world. Of course the view will come off as divisive and superior -- it is both these things. Too much time has been spent coddling the religious in hopes to at least make room for a secular worldview: the result? Continued religious fanaticism.
This might be true, but I think that perhaps if he were to invest his time in promoting and encouraging critical thinking and promoting a better understanding of reality, it would naturally work agansit delusional religious belief.
You know, promote awareness, or something, instead of simply proclaiming "religion is this, science is that, religion is wrong". 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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cloudtop
Stranger


Registered: 08/16/04
Posts: 66
Loc: bespin
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Fireworks_god: and indeed, anybody familiar w/ Dawkins' formidable tome and the influence he's had on countless individuals could do little more than laud his dedication to a soundly logical worldview. Dawkins -- like Sam Harris and other authors -- simply seems to be approaching an apex of disbelief in which he can no longer tolerate living in a world of peculiarly unaware individuals with a penchant for degrading the world with their ignorance of it.
Not that it is for me to decide his view.
-------------------- peacefromabovecloudtop
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: the root of all evil [Re: cloudtop]
#5914738 - 07/30/06 11:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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No, you are incredibly right, I felt the same impression when watching the documentary. The impression of the evangelist was frightful, and not surprising that he holds conference calls with Bush and Blair.
I've already witnessed an intelligent, aware individual reach the same conclusion and seek to actively expose delusion by directly addressing it when it is expressed, and that individual got banned, specifically due to the fact that he continued to do so when those with the ability to exercise their judgement presented illogical modes of thought.
I'm simply saying that I think the best approach is to simply transcend the notion of reacting to such detrimental thoughts and behaviors and exist as the ultimate expression of the beneficial, preferred state. The more he address religion in such a manner, the less he is actively advancing our understanding of reality by exploring reality with his field.
Ultimately, I might be thinking that it just isn't effective, as it simply directs the illogical freaks' gaze directly at science. I think the documentary might empower the delusion, and I sensed that the evangelist was tweaking out with the sense of gaining power.
You know what I mean? 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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"Do not try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and it annoys the pig."
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: the root of all evil [Re: Veritas]
#5914864 - 07/30/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Sooouuuieee Ben Afflack
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool


Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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what scared me was how he talks about american style crazy nutjob evangelical christianity is spreading. i hope we can stop this spread. it didnt take long for islamic fundamentalism to spread like wildfire and set the middle east further back into the dark ages....of course we have israels creation to thank for that shit
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