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KingOftheThing
the cool fool


Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,397
Loc: USA
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the root of all evil
#5907324 - 07/27/06 11:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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is a documentary about religion by an amazing biologist named Richard Dawkins
here is a preview clip of him inerviewing a wacko evangelical about evolution http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmNjfpoRZpE
here is the full documentary: part1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AB2vmj8eyMk part2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kcKInudkq4 part3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76UDVB-ofpI
Edited by KingOftheThing (07/27/06 11:17 PM)
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Mushouse
Mycomancer

Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 500
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Claiming that you are "not an animal" is arrogance.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: the root of all eveil [Re: Mushouse]
#5907551 - 07/28/06 12:24 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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The animal kingdom is ripe with interspecies-killing, territorial scraps, unconscious sexuality and an insatiable desire to quench all primal thirsts. Ok - maybe not THAT different than some of the behavior of humans. The difference though is that a dumb beast doesn't know any beter. They're neither moral nor immoral. They are amoral. Humans on the other hand are able to choose whether to regress to animalistic primacy or wisely rise above it, effectively taking advantage of a thing called reason; which animals lack entirely.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: the root of all eveil [Re: Basilides]
#5907839 - 07/28/06 02:38 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Humans on the other hand are able to choose whether to regress to animalistic primacy or wisely rise above it, effectively taking advantage of a thing called reason; which animals lack entirely.
How can you claim to know this?
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Just a hunch after encountering various different types of people.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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porcupine
Stranger

Registered: 01/09/05
Posts: 1,289
Loc: MI
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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As soon as I read it was by Richard Dawkins I lost interest.
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
Last seen: 4 years, 24 days
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Re: the root of all evil [Re: porcupine]
#5907999 - 07/28/06 04:46 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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in theory, the root of all evil, is goodness.
and the root of all goodness is evil. funny how that works.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero


Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 2 months, 20 days
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Re: the root of all evil [Re: kotik]
#5908027 - 07/28/06 05:09 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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> in theory, the root of all evil, is goodness.
More than just theory. You have a gem in there, if you can see it.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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cloudtop
Stranger


Registered: 08/16/04
Posts: 66
Loc: bespin
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Re: the root of all evil [Re: Seuss]
#5908540 - 07/28/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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The root of all evil is belief in it.
The Dawkins piece is pretty entertaining if you're down with the open confrontation of established religion, but I think he puts too much merit in an innate morality stemming from secular humanism. On the one hand he goes so far to end the assumptions about 'god' and on the other he crashes right back into an imaginary heaven where man just knows what is right or wrong.
-------------------- peacefromabovecloudtop
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Phonerothyme
Audiomancer


Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 453
Last seen: 13 years, 8 days
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Re: the root of all eveil [Re: Basilides]
#5911071 - 07/29/06 02:58 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Basilides said: Humans on the other hand are able to choose whether to regress to animalistic primacy or wisely rise above it, effectively taking advantage of a thing called reason; which animals lack entirely.
Hahaha, bullshit. Humans made up morals. We're just as much of instinctual beasts as dogs are, we just have a more advanced nervous system and countless living systems which have given us the delusion of significance. We just happened to be the animals which ended up with a couple of free appendages who mastered the use of tools and fire as a result. That doesn't mean we're divine. To suggest so is horrendously childish.
We aquired what you call "reason" as a result of the safety we developed through the use of tools and fire, and likely also as a result of the use of psychedelic mushrooms which allowed us to be aware of things in new perspectives and think about things other than sexing and eating. When we didn't have to be constantly focused on surviving, we began to have time to reflect on our actions, and began to think things out more thoroughly. "Reason" is a result of our minds adapting to our cultures rather than our needs and our surroundings.
-------------------- http://erothyme.net
Edited by TheRaiRai (07/29/06 03:04 AM)
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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If a dog kills another dog, it is not immoral. If a human kills another human, it is immoral and it is murder because humans should be consciously aware that killing is wrong. Failing to recognize this is subversion. For those who believe there is nothing wrong in animalistic selfishness to the point where murder and blatant criminality materialize, they can argue on behalf of all murderers and rapists all they want. They don't call these subhumans "beasts" for nothing.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Phonerothyme
Audiomancer


Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 453
Last seen: 13 years, 8 days
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Re: the root of all eveil [Re: Basilides]
#5911226 - 07/29/06 05:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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You are incredibly culturally brainwashed and appear to be pseudointellectual enough that it would likely be impossible to hold a debate with you. Regardless:
A dog killing a dog and a human killing a human are the same in all ways aside from culturally and in complexity of motive. The entire suggestion that anything at all is "wrong" or "immoral" is 100% pure unadulterated opinion.
-------------------- http://erothyme.net
Edited by TheRaiRai (07/29/06 05:56 AM)
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
Last seen: 4 years, 24 days
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Quote:
TheRaiRai said:The entire suggestion that anything at all is "wrong" or "immoral" is 100% pure unadulterated opinion.
I would have to agree. Herodotus would doo, circa 440 B.C.E.
Quote:
Darius, after he had got the kingdom, called into his presence certain Greeks who were at hand, and asked- "What he should pay them to eat the bodies of their fathers when they died?" To which they answered, that there was no sum that would tempt them to do such a thing. He then sent for certain Indians, of the race called Callatians, men who eat their fathers, and asked them, while the Greeks stood by, and knew by the help of an interpreter all that was said - "What he should give them to burn the bodies of their fathers at their decease?" The Indians exclaimed aloud, and bade him forbear such language. Such is men's wont herein; and Pindar was right, in my judgment, when he said, "Law is the king o'er all."
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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And you have been brainwashed by the self-centric weltanschauung of moral relativism - also opinions. Sartre, one of many to broach moral relativism, observed that most people on some level hold a variation of moral code, a form of authenticism. Authenticism! Personally, I cannot think of any other philosophy that is more obtuse and subjective. Aside from sending intuition to the grave, there are enough people in this world creating living hells out of their own view of what is "moral". Fortunately, moral intuition is conventional in most societies, hence why some things are simply universally deplorable.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Phonerothyme
Audiomancer


Registered: 07/27/06
Posts: 453
Last seen: 13 years, 8 days
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Re: the root of all eveil [Re: kotik]
#5911394 - 07/29/06 08:36 AM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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First of all, I never said or implied that either I or my worldview was particularly self-centric, only that there was nothing wrong with those who are. Of course, I never said I/it wasn't, but you definately made an interesting assumption.
Secondly, your post had little to do with the argument of whether or not humans are somehow "moral" and able to tell the difference between a universal and unquestionable "right and wrong." Though it should be mentioned that in your comment about people's "own view[s] of what is 'moral'," you even imply yourself that the idea of morality is subjective.
Also, no matter how universally deplorable or universally accepted something is, that doesn't automatically cause it to be truth. It is still merely a common opinion.
-------------------- http://erothyme.net
Edited by TheRaiRai (07/29/06 08:42 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
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Quote:
TheRaiRai said: You are incredibly culturally brainwashed and appear to be pseudointellectual enough that it would likely be impossible to hold a debate with you. Regardless:
A dog killing a dog and a human killing a human are the same in all ways aside from culturally and in complexity of motive. The entire suggestion that anything at all is "wrong" or "immoral" is 100% pure unadulterated opinion.
I have difficulty with this being cut and dried as fact. The dog can plan, and can in fact perform morally or immorally according to whether or not it wants to be good - generally they do want to be good, but it may want to be utterly self serving; I have seen dogs get crooked ideas and act them out as if nobody were looking (a secretive sneaky slouch sets in...).
Humans also may kill without moral issues i.e. when it is utterly accidental or reflexive, defensive. But most of the time when humans kill it is premeditated, and sneaky. The self serving caution away from killing is the key moral element.
I believe the self keeps track of it's own fairness vs sneakiness and treats itself to its own form of justice (karma). Even the most crooked and self serving mind can recognize its position in its own fairness schema. Some however can be declared psychopathic, these may really have fallen off the edge of morality into an entirely autonomous robotic yuckiness.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Yes, I'm sure there was no evil before religion.
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cloudtop
Stranger


Registered: 08/16/04
Posts: 66
Loc: bespin
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Good and evil are human constructs based upon a highly advanced socialized value system. Yes, we are animals and we are subject to the same biological instincts. Yes, we are humans and we are 'in control' of our instincts so much as we maintain conscious awareness of them and direct our will towards the resolution of particular goals and value systems. We're both. Either way, we're still subject to the same basic laws of nature. One of these is survival in the face of adversity (whether it be an oppressive society, a direct predator, or what have you). To 'murder' in the name of self-persistence is the simple role of any life-oriented individual.
Morality, however, is not universal. Do not get its cultural ubiquity and some common traits deceive you into believing that all people maintain a universal set of morals. If anything all morality is descended from a singular lineage (arguably correlated to the origins of theism and reinforced by the advent of agriculture). I believe, however, that a close observation of the various remaining indigenous cultures might yield some anomalies to the prevailing 'universals'.
Morality can only exist under the purview of an omnipotent being. People don't kill because we've created a value system which suggests it is largely not a successful behavior (for the individuals involved as well as for the society) and thus have chosen to decriminalize it. Unfortunately a fair number of criminalized activities, as we well know, have not been founded upon a prior observation/demonstration of their insustainability or lack of utility for our society and thus there is a continued confusion about the origin of our laws: they can be logically justified only among singularly-minded cultural value systems and cannot withstand the burden of a falsely universal morality.
-------------------- peacefromabovecloudtop
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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I'm just partway through the first video, and I notice how he's already making a slippery slope fallacy. He talks about the worshippers at Lourdes cathedral, and how it's a slippery slope to strapping bombs to one's chest. Reminds me of politicians who say that smoking pot is a slippery slope to shooting heroin. Amazing how such a "man or reason" can make such an irrational leap.
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TODAY
Battletoad


Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,218
Loc: Metropolis City, USA
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Thanks for the linkage KOTT. I was looking for something to do this afternoon, now I've found it
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ca'rouse (k-rouz) intr.v. To engage in boisterous, drunken merrymaking.
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