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OfflineBasilides
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Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon
    #5904101 - 07/27/06 01:12 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Video: Pat Buchanan on Hardball with Chris Matthews

No, this is not 'our war'

By Patrick Buchanan

Posted: July 20, 2006
8:36 p.m. Eastern


My country has been "torn to shreds," said Fouad Siniora, the prime minister of Lebanon, as the death toll among his people passed 300 civilian dead, 1,000 wounded, with half a million homeless.

Israel must pay for the "barbaric destruction," said Siniora.

To the contrary, says columnist Lawrence Kudlow, "Israel is doing the Lord's work."

On American TV, former Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu says the ruination of Lebanon is Hezbollah's doing. But is it Hezbollah that is using U.S.-built F-16s, with precision-guided bombs and 155-mm artillery pieces to wreak death and devastation on Lebanon?

No, Israel is doing this, with the blessing and without a peep of protest from President Bush. And we wonder why they hate us.


"Today, we are all Israelis!" brayed Ken Mehlman of the Republican National Committee to a gathering of Christians United for Israel.

One wonders if these Christians care about what is happening to our Christian brethren in Lebanon and Gaza, who have had all power cut off by Israeli airstrikes, an outlawed form of collective punishment, that has left them with no sanitation, rotting food, impure water and days without light or electricity in the horrible heat of July.

When summer power outrages occur in America, it means a rising rate of death among our sick and elderly, and women and infants. One can only imagine what a hell it must be today in Gaza City and Beirut.

But all this carnage and destruction has only piqued the blood lust of the hairy-chested warriors at the Weekly Standard. In a signed editorial, "It's Our War," William Kristol calls for America to play her rightful role in this war by "countering this act of aggression by Iran with a military strike against Iranian nuclear facilities. Why wait?"

"Why wait?" Well, one reason is that the United States has not been attacked. A second is a small thing called the Constitution. Where does George W. Bush get the authority to launch a war on Iran? When did Congress declare war or authorize a war on Iran?

Answer: It never did. But these neoconservatives care no more about the Constitution than they cared about the truth when they lied into war in Iraq.

"Why wait?" How about thinking of the fate of those 25,000 Americans in Lebanon if we launch an unprovoked war on Iran. How many would wind up dead or hostages of Hezbollah if Iran gave the order to retaliate for the slaughter of their citizens by U.S. bombs? What would happen to the 130,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, if Shiites and Iranian "volunteers" joined forces to exact revenge on our soldiers?

What about America? Richard Armitage, who did four tours in Nam and knows a bit about war, says that, in its ability to attack Western targets, al-Qaida is the B Team, Hezbollah the A Team. If Bush bombs Iran, what prevents Hezbollah from launching retaliatory attacks inside the United States?

None of this is written in defense of Hamas, Hezbollah or Iran.

But none of them has attacked our country, nor has Syria, whom Bush I made an ally in the Gulf War and to whom the most decorated soldier in Israeli history, Ehud Barak, offered 99 percent of the Golan Heights. If Nixon, Bush I and Clinton could deal with Hafez al-Assad, a tougher customer than son Bashar, what is the matter with George W. Bush?

The last superpower is impotent in this war because we have allowed Israel to dictate to whom we may and may not talk. Thus, Bush winds up cussing in frustration in St. Petersburg that somebody should tell the Syrians to stop it. Why not pick up the phone, Mr. President?

What is Kristol's moral and legal ground for a war on Iran? It is the "Iranian act of aggression" against Israel and that Iran is on the road to nuclear weapons – and we can't have that.

But there is no evidence Iran has any tighter control over Hezbollah than we have over Israel, whose response to the capture of two soldiers had all the spontaneity of the Schlieffen Plan. And, again, Hezbollah attacked Israel, not us. And there is no solid proof Iran is in violation of the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, which it has signed, but Israel refuses to sign.

If Iran's nuclear program justifies war, why cannot the neocons make that case in the constitutional way, instead of prodding Bush to launch a Pearl Harbor attack? Do they fear they have no credibility left after pushing Bush into this bloody quagmire in Iraq that has cost almost 2,600 dead and 18,000 wounded Americans?

No, Kenny boy, we are not "all Israelis." Some of us still think of ourselves as Americans, first, last and always.

And, no, Mr. Kristol, this is not "our war." It's your war.

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51164


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: Basilides]
    #5904964 - 07/27/06 10:59 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Nice Article...

I had to look at the video, because I didnt believe Pat Buchanan would say anything like that. I thought it must have been some other Patrick Buchanan. Its nice, however, to see something other than blind allegience to Jews and Israel and Yahweh come from the mouths of the Republican party. And not some Junior Senator from Bumfuck, Wyoming, but a major player in the Republican party.

Edited: Wrong name, stupid.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


Edited by Madtowntripper (07/27/06 11:39 AM)


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InvisibleHank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5904989 - 07/27/06 11:11 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think its Pat Buchanan, not Robertson.

Yes, this is a good article, which brings some interesting ideas to light. I loved the way he ended it, saying he is not an Israeli, but an American.

I will say this again, I don't wish any harm on Israel, but if they want to keep stirring up shit, they should take care of themselves.

If America starts a war with Iran, its just going to cause more people to turn away from Israel. They are so short sighted, and are sowing the seeds for a 2nd holocaust IMO.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #5905053 - 07/27/06 11:32 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

What do you mean, sowing seeds for a second holocaust. If they had had their way it would have been done already.

Pat Buchanan is and always has been an isolationist, something that has been out of favor with both the left and the right for decades.

Israel does not "stir up shit". It just wants to be. Hezbollah crossing the border and attacking somehow amounts to "Israel stirring up shit?" Puhleeze.


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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5905108 - 07/27/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Actually both sides stir up shit. The Zionists (comprised of quite a few people who were not natives of the area) practiced terrorism to get a Jewish state, the other parties learned from their example. I think if you would check, before they started stirring up shit for the establishment of a state, the homicide rate (meaning death at the hands of people) in that area of the world was much lower than it is today. It would be quite reasonable to come to the conclusion that the establishment of states in the area has led to an increase in violence and that establishing more states (such as a Palestinian state) would do nothing to lessen the violence. States quite often legitimize murder, in this case both for those who are support the state of Israel and those who oppose the state of Israel.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'


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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5905180 - 07/27/06 12:29 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
What do you mean, sowing seeds for a second holocaust. If they had had their way it would have been done already.

Pat Buchanan is and always has been an isolationist, something that has been out of favor with both the left and the right for decades.

Israel does not "stir up shit". It just wants to be. Hezbollah crossing the border and attacking somehow amounts to "Israel stirring up shit?" Puhleeze.




Link me to the story that has PROOF Hezbollah crossed the border. Until then, I am of the opinion that Israeli's were IN Lebanon.

Bombing all of Lebanon for the action of Hezbollah is stirring up shit.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:


Edited by alpharedecho (07/27/06 12:30 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #5905209 - 07/27/06 12:42 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Proof? Just what proof do you want? Or are you one of those guys who thinks a missile flew into the Pentagon on 9/11.

And no, bombing all of Lebanon (which is not happening) in response to an invasion by Lebanese citizen criminals (who are not being prosecuted by the Lebanese themselves) is not "stirring up shit". The attacks by Hezbollah were completely unacceptable. Either the Lebanese move to stop them or Israel will. And they have every reason to consider the Lebanese Gov't complicit, as well as the UN, both of which stood by while Hez prepared their attack, in direct contradiction to their own mandates and promises.
No, Israel is "stirring up shit" (in your mind) merely trying to exist

The Lebanese will either govern their country or Israel will.


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5905218 - 07/27/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Is there any proof that the soldiers were captured inside isreal? No, I don't think there is. So what zappa is doing here is making an assumption. As far as I have seen each side is claiming it happened in their country. Who is right?


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"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5905257 - 07/27/06 12:58 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Proof? Just what proof do you want? Or are you one of those guys who thinks a missile flew into the Pentagon on 9/11.

And no, bombing all of Lebanon (which is not happening) in response to an invasion by Lebanese citizen criminals (who are not being prosecuted by the Lebanese themselves) is not "stirring up shit". The attacks by Hezbollah were completely unacceptable. Either the Lebanese move to stop them or Israel will. And they have every reason to consider the Lebanese Gov't complicit, as well as the UN, both of which stood by while Hez prepared their attack, in direct contradiction to their own mandates and promises.
No, Israel is "stirring up shit" (in your mind) merely trying to exist

The Lebanese will either govern their country or Israel will.




Israel is just trying to exist eh? Do you actually believe the stuff you type? Trying to exist does not mean illegally occupying your neighbors.

Read that article that was just posted about the media bias, cause I think you have been brainwashed.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:


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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5905335 - 07/27/06 01:23 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:

Israel does not "stir up shit".  It just wants to be.  Hezbollah crossing the border and attacking somehow amounts to "Israel stirring up shit?"  Puhleeze.




Israel is innocent and does not have blood on its hands? Are you serious? :lol: Maybe check out these articles:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post5887576


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #5905431 - 07/27/06 01:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

alpharedecho said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Proof? Just what proof do you want? Or are you one of those guys who thinks a missile flew into the Pentagon on 9/11.

And no, bombing all of Lebanon (which is not happening) in response to an invasion by Lebanese citizen criminals (who are not being prosecuted by the Lebanese themselves) is not "stirring up shit". The attacks by Hezbollah were completely unacceptable. Either the Lebanese move to stop them or Israel will. And they have every reason to consider the Lebanese Gov't complicit, as well as the UN, both of which stood by while Hez prepared their attack, in direct contradiction to their own mandates and promises.
No, Israel is "stirring up shit" (in your mind) merely trying to exist

The Lebanese will either govern their country or Israel will.




Israel is just trying to exist eh? Do you actually believe the stuff you type? Trying to exist does not mean illegally occupying your neighbors.

Read that article that was just posted about the media bias, cause I think you have been brainwashed.




This "illegally occupying your neighbors" shit is total crap. They were under attack and WON THAT WAR. Now they have given most of the territory back. But that is not what their enemies want. They want everything, just like they always have. If the fuckers would just let Israel have it's oil-less sliver in peace there would be no problem. But they won't. They constantly load the borders with weapons and thugs to attack and drive the Jew into the sea.

You and bio can take that nazi bullshit from the Chomskyite asshole Herman and peddle it in Riyadh and Teheran.

My question to you is this:

Does Israel have the right to exist within it's pre-'67 borders (in your opinion, because no one here is important enough to really decide)? This is a straight out yes or no question. You can elaborate all you want but you have to answer this one yes or no. Do they have a right to exist at all?

And stop with the fucking brainwashed crap. No you are. No you are. No you are. It's stupid and disrespectful to assume that anyone who disagrees with you is brainwashed. Stupid is better. I have been around too long and read too much and seen too much to be brainwashed by anyone.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5905437 - 07/27/06 01:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RosettaStoned said:
Is there any proof that the soldiers were captured inside isreal? No, I don't think there is. So what zappa is doing here is making an assumption. As far as I have seen each side is claiming it happened in their country. Who is right?




What proof do you require, oh guru of veracity? Aren't you one of the "9/11 attack by the US government" gang?

S&P is probably the best place to contemplate whether there really is a navel in the orange or if it is merely a manifestation of the godhead in a fruit. I'm just saying.


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Edited by zappaisgod (07/27/06 01:56 PM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5905560 - 07/27/06 02:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think it is fair to ridicule him for not whole-heartedly believing the official story put forth by the Israeli government. I'm honestly on the fence, myself. Until I see some evidence one way or the other, I'm not going to trust either of the two groups' words.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: Redstorm]
    #5905566 - 07/27/06 02:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

What group has said they weren't taken from Israel?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5905576 - 07/27/06 02:36 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

And I do believe he is one of the 9/11 conspiracists.


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InvisibleHank, FTW
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Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 3,912
Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5905605 - 07/27/06 02:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
And I do believe he is one of the 9/11 conspiracists.




9/11 is not a conspiracy theory, way to much evidence to be labelled that anymore.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5905606 - 07/27/06 02:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I know it's a shitty site, but it has some interesting information:

http://www.antiwar.com/frank/?articleid=9401

It says who stated that they were kidnapped in Lebanon.


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InvisibleHank, FTW
Looking for the Answer

Registered: 05/04/06
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5905624 - 07/27/06 02:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

alpharedecho said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Proof? Just what proof do you want? Or are you one of those guys who thinks a missile flew into the Pentagon on 9/11.

And no, bombing all of Lebanon (which is not happening) in response to an invasion by Lebanese citizen criminals (who are not being prosecuted by the Lebanese themselves) is not "stirring up shit". The attacks by Hezbollah were completely unacceptable. Either the Lebanese move to stop them or Israel will. And they have every reason to consider the Lebanese Gov't complicit, as well as the UN, both of which stood by while Hez prepared their attack, in direct contradiction to their own mandates and promises.
No, Israel is "stirring up shit" (in your mind) merely trying to exist

The Lebanese will either govern their country or Israel will.




Israel is just trying to exist eh? Do you actually believe the stuff you type? Trying to exist does not mean illegally occupying your neighbors.

Read that article that was just posted about the media bias, cause I think you have been brainwashed.




This "illegally occupying your neighbors" shit is total crap. They were under attack and WON THAT WAR. Now they have given most of the territory back. But that is not what their enemies want. They want everything, just like they always have. If the fuckers would just let Israel have it's oil-less sliver in peace there would be no problem. But they won't. They constantly load the borders with weapons and thugs to attack and drive the Jew into the sea.

You and bio can take that nazi bullshit from the Chomskyite asshole Herman and peddle it in Riyadh and Teheran.

My question to you is this:

Does Israel have the right to exist within it's pre-'67 borders (in your opinion, because no one here is important enough to really decide)? This is a straight out yes or no question. You can elaborate all you want but you have to answer this one yes or no. Do they have a right to exist at all?

And stop with the fucking brainwashed crap. No you are. No you are. No you are. It's stupid and disrespectful to assume that anyone who disagrees with you is brainwashed. Stupid is better. I have been around too long and read too much and seen too much to be brainwashed by anyone.




Yes, Israel has a right to exist. Of course, its just the where thing that gets me. It would be nice if they could have Israel, but Arabs and Jews can't seem to get along, so this seems like a stupid place to have them. Its either move on tiny country, or move the entire Arab world. America is so supportive, they should just give a State to be the new Israel.

If Israel stays where it is, it will be swallowed by the Arab world with in 50 years, IMO. No matter how tough they are, no matter how superior the technology. The numbers don't lie.


--------------------
Capliberty:

"I'll blow the hinges off your freakin doors with my trips, level 5 been there, I personally like x, bud, acid and shroom oj, altogether, do that combination, and you'll meet some morbid figures, lol
Hell yeah I push the limits and hell yeah thats fucking cool, dope, bad ass and all that, I'm not changing shit, I'm cutting to to the chase and giving u shroom experience report. Real trippers aren't afraid to go beyond there comfort zone "

:rofl:


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: Hank, FTW]
    #5905853 - 07/27/06 03:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

alpharedecho said:
[qu
Yes, Israel has a right to exist. Of course, its just the where thing that gets me. It would be nice if they could have Israel, but Arabs and Jews can't seem to get along, so this seems like a stupid place to have them. Its either move on tiny country, or move the entire Arab world. America is so supportive, they should just give a State to be the new Israel.

If Israel stays where it is, it will be swallowed by the Arab world with in 50 years, IMO. No matter how tough they are, no matter how superior the technology. The numbers don't lie.




I'd be happy to give them Long Island. But they don't want it. And it is not what was granted to them 60 years ago. As to the Arab residents of Israel we can look to this;
"The Arabs who remained inside post-1948 Israel became citizens of the Jewish state. They had voting rights equal to the state's Jewish community, and according to Israel's Declaration of Independence were guaranteed social and political equality. "
http://countrystudies.us/israel/23.htm

Once again, this was granted to them by an international agency following the two great world wars. Other nations created out of whole cloth include, but are not limited to, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Jordan.

The Jews and the non-traitor Palestinians have been granted this territory by the only internationally recognized (somewhat) governing body. The Palestinians who find themselves refugees are descendants of Israeli citizens who chose to flee rather than fight in the '40s. And what the fuck do refugees think they are doing having zillions of children they can't support?

They can't seem to get along? If the Jews were left alone on their tiny sliver they wouldn't bother anybody. The Muslims, on the other hand, can't seem to get along with anyone. Anywhere. Ever. No, I don't think it's a good idea to cave in to these scumbags. Anywhere. Ever.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5905874 - 07/27/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

To start with, to your earlier question, my answer is no. I do NOT think Israel has a right to exist in the boundaries it inhabits now. You cannot displace one group of people from their ancestral homes just so another group of people can have a place to call their own. Any way you parse it, this is stealing.

Let me just say Zappa, that I find you fall-back reliance on the UN mandate hilarious. Havent you said constantly before that UN is just a sham, that the US shouldnt listen to them, that they have no right to tell us what to do in Iraq, etc?

And the Arabs inside Israel today are NOT full citizens. To say they are is preposterous. They pay the same taxes, but their children are not allowed to go to the same schools. They may not hold certain jobs. They face discrimination in jobs and housing. The situation is no different from the American South of the 1950's and 60's. The Jews and Israeli Arabs may be living inside the same country, but they are NOT living under the same set of rules.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5905969 - 07/27/06 04:29 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
To start with, to your earlier question, my answer is no. I do NOT think Israel has a right to exist in the boundaries it inhabits now. You cannot displace one group of people from their ancestral homes just so another group of people can have a place to call their own. Any way you parse it, this is stealing.




Um, no, they were never displaced. They walked out of their own free will and had equal voting rights before doing so. See and read the link I provided.
Quote:



Let me just say Zappa, that I find you fall-back reliance on the UN mandate hilarious. Havent you said constantly before that UN is just a sham, that the US shouldnt listen to them, that they have no right to tell us what to do in Iraq, etc?




Except we were merely enforcing their edicts in Iraq that they were unwilling to. But that is NOT THIS THREAD.
You are entirely correct. I despise the UN. Don't forget the situation at the time of the partition of the mid east. The UN didn't really exist as it does today. The UN then was a bunch of European VICTORS deciding how the world would be drawn. Good bad or indifferent, it was what was. Like I said about the whole map. It was all fake. And you know what? It's a done deal. It's over. The whole world except for Muslim lunatics recognize Israel's right to exist in the pre '67 borders. And that's that. Get over it.
Quote:



And the Arabs inside Israel today are NOT full citizens. To say they are is preposterous. They pay the same taxes, but their children are not allowed to go to the same schools. They may not hold certain jobs. They face discrimination in jobs and housing. The situation is no different from the American South of the 1950's and 60's. The Jews and Israeli Arabs may be living inside the same country, but they are NOT living under the same set of rules.




Do you feel like providing a link to these facts, like I did to their voting rights, or are you expecting us to take your comparison to American Negroes in the '50s and '60s as prima facie fact. Hell, I may even be willing to accept that they are discriminated against, based on the fact that their fucking cousins keep sending teenage girls strapped with Semtex into shopping malls. Who wouldn't discriminate against them?


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5907230 - 07/27/06 10:42 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Like I said, your making an assumption. And my personal beliefs on 9/11 have nothing to do with this. But your attempt to discredit me instead of answering my question just goes to prove you are sidestepping the question in true right-wing fashion. Or should I say fascist?

You know discrediting a speaking to avoid their question doesn't make the question any less valid right?


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"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5907263 - 07/27/06 10:52 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Do you feel like providing a link to these facts, like I did to their voting rights, or are you expecting us to take your comparison to American Negroes in the '50s and '60s as prima facie fact. Hell, I may even be willing to accept that they are discriminated against, based on the fact that their fucking cousins keep sending teenage girls strapped with Semtex into shopping malls. Who wouldn't discriminate against them?




So are you saying you dont believe the discrimination happens, or are you saying that it does and is justified. You cant take both positions.

At any rate, if you read through the 2004 Human Rights Report put out by the US STATE DEPARTMENT, you'll see that even the Bush administration couldnt disguise the fact that Israeli-Arabs are treated as an underclass.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41723.htm

Read through it...Nearly every single page has an example of what I'm talking about...Education policy...Economic Policy...etc, etc.

If you really need me to pick out the examples I will, but there are probably 100 in there.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5909285 - 07/28/06 03:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RosettaStoned said:
Like I said, your making an assumption. And my personal beliefs on 9/11 have nothing to do with this. But your attempt to discredit me instead of answering my question just goes to prove you are sidestepping the question in true right-wing fashion. Or should I say fascist?

You know discrediting a speaking to avoid their question doesn't make the question any less valid right?




You didn't answer my question in regard to what proof would be acceptable to you. The 9/11 thing was mentioned because I seem to recall that you think missiles hit the Pentagon and that the towers were brought down by BUSHHHHHHHHHHH. And Rove, of course.

No, I have no proof of anything at all. Nor have I ever. Nor has anyone ever had any proof of anything. Now move along. Nothing to see here.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5909364 - 07/28/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:


Do you feel like providing a link to these facts, like I did to their voting rights, or are you expecting us to take your comparison to American Negroes in the '50s and '60s as prima facie fact. Hell, I may even be willing to accept that they are discriminated against, based on the fact that their fucking cousins keep sending teenage girls strapped with Semtex into shopping malls. Who wouldn't discriminate against them?




So are you saying you dont believe the discrimination happens, or are you saying that it does and is justified. You cant take both positions.

At any rate, if you read through the 2004 Human Rights Report put out by the US STATE DEPARTMENT, you'll see that even the Bush administration couldnt disguise the fact that Israeli-Arabs are treated as an underclass.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41723.htm

Read through it...Nearly every single page has an example of what I'm talking about...Education policy...Economic Policy...etc, etc.

If you really need me to pick out the examples I will, but there are probably 100 in there.




I wasn't saying anything other than that you should provide a link to back up your assertion. Is that too much to ask? I just checked the fucking link you posted and it is interminable and full of mentions of individual violations, many of which are against Israeli Jews. I have no intention of reading the whole thing to search for whatever point you were trying to make. If there is something that points to a systemic abuse of Israeli Arabs please pull it out.
How about this beauty from your link
"There were no reports of politically motivated killings by the Government or its agents during the year."
And this;
"During the year, terrorist organizations such as the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Hizballah, Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PLFP), committed numerous acts of terrorism in Israel as well as in the occupied territories."
I find you to be dishonest, since if you had found something there to back your point you could have pasted that. In which case I could have looked for the basic sentence or paragraph without having to weed through the whole fucking thing to try to guess what the fuck you were talking about. Capisce? You either have something to back up your assertion or you don't. If I don't see it I will assume you don't. Thanks in advance.


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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5910713 - 07/28/06 11:57 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I have not been following this whole thing very closely so maybe someone can help me here.

From what I understand the sequence of events was basically this:

1) Hezbollah kidnaps an Israeli soldier.

2) Instead of negotiating as in the past Israel unexpectedly goes apeshit and attacks Lebanon and is then surprised when they respond with rocket attacks.

Is that about it?


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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zorbman]
    #5910739 - 07/29/06 12:07 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Not exactly. What happened was --

1) Hezbollah enters Israel, kills eight Israeli soldiers and captures two others, then heads back across the border and starts lobbing rockets into Israel.

2) Instead of caving and doing the usual prisoner exchange dealie where one Israeli is traded for dozens (and in some cases hundreds) of prisoners, Israel goes into full-on fight back mode, something Hezbollah certainly wasn't expecting (so in that case, I guess you could call it "unexpected").

That's about it.




Phred


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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: Phred]
    #5910779 - 07/29/06 12:26 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

What does this gain Israel in the long run?

Won't this only serve to weaken the legitimate government in Lebanon which Israel should desire to see strengthened as a counterweight to Hezbollah?

Or do they view this in a vacuum?

This seems so incredibly stupid like most wars.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zorbman]
    #5910811 - 07/29/06 12:35 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

What does this gain Israel in the long run?




It's already gained them more sympathy from the Arab world than they've ever received in their almost six decades of existence. The Arabs are condemning Hezbollah and (reluctantly, to be sure) admitting Israel is the harmed party.

Quote:

Won't this only serve to weaken the legitimate government in Lebanon which Israel should desire to see strengthened as a counterweight to Hezbollah?




How could it get any weaker? Eighteen members of the Lebanese legislature are Hezbollah already. So are two cabinet members. The Lebanese government has amply demonstrated it has no control over Hezbollah whatsoever. Hezbollah has been the de facto government of south Lebanon for years and years.

Israel has nothing to lose. Hezbollah must be defanged, and no one will defang them but Israel. It's not as if there are a whole lot of sensible alternatives here.




Phred


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5910861 - 07/29/06 12:56 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You didn't answer my question in regard to what proof would be acceptable to you




I just wanted to read some more info on where the soldiers were captured from. I have seen both sides claiming it happened in their country and I have seen independent sources claiming both sides.

Quote:

I seem to recall that you think missiles hit the Pentagon




False.

Quote:

that the towers were brought down by BUSHHHHHHHHHHH. And Rove, of course




False. While I certainly do NOT buy the official story, these generalizations you have made are not accurate representations of my personal beliefs. But I see once again you have nothing better to do that try to discredit and dismiss someone who doesn't share your personal beliefs instead of addressing the issue at hand, it's pathetic really.


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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: Phred]
    #5911025 - 07/29/06 02:26 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It's already gained them more sympathy from the Arab world than they've ever received in their almost six decades of existence.

I find that hard to believe.

Do you have some citations for that?

How could it get any weaker? Eighteen members of the Lebanese legislature are Hezbollah already.

No, as I understand it the Hezbollah members only comprise about 20% of the legislature. So it seems to me that this Israeli incursion will only serve to strengthen the very forces Israel claim to desire to supress which are (now) a minority.

The majority moderate forces represented in the legislature will be called "unpatriotic" and "weak" by the extremists if they push for peace just like those of us in the US who initially opposed the Iraq war(such as myself) were called "unpatriotic" in the drumbeat leading up to the Iraq war. Today most people see it was an unwise war. But people don't think straight when wars start. People need to learn reason.

From what I can see this war only gives ammunition to the extremists on both sides which will only prolong the conflict. Whatever happened to dialogue?? President Reagan was willing to talk to our enemies. That's what the diplomatic core is for. And Reagan was a strong, strong President, stronger that Bush IMO.

Bush can't carry Reagan's jockstrap.

There.

I've done gone and said it.

It needed to be said.

It needs to be understood by every Reaganite-wanabee..this President ain't no Reagan. He can hole up in his fake ranch all he wants, it doesn't change the fact that his is weakness posing as strength. Reagan was the real deal.

Reagan would actually talk to his enemies. He was a wise man. He ended the Cold War without firing a shot. Bush seems to want to prove his manhood with the blood of others and war is always his first option.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


Edited by zorbman (07/29/06 03:30 AM)


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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zorbman]
    #5911886 - 07/29/06 12:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I find that hard to believe.

Do you have some citations for that?




You're the one admitting you haven't been following the situation very closely. Those of us who have remember the reports. Just go back to news reports from the first few days of the episode. Google "Arab League condemns Hezbollah" or "Saudi Arabia blames Hezbollah" or something similar.

Quote:

No, as I understand it the Hezbollah members only comprise about 20% of the legislature.




Then I guess the Lebanese legislature contains around 90 members, since both numbers (eighteen and 20%) have been mentioned repeatedly in news reports. The fact of the matter is that Hezbollah is a part of the Lebanese government. Not the majority, no, but not just one or two mavericks either.

The other fact of the matter is that the Lebanese government has no control over Hezbollah operatives. Hezbollah operates with complete impunity in Lebanon. At least, they did until the Israelis decided to do something about it.

Quote:

Whatever happened to dialogue?? President Reagan was willing to talk to our enemies. That's what the diplomatic core is for.




What Libbies fail to grasp is that diplomacy accomplishes exactly nothing when one party says "no". That's all that needs to be done to stymie the most velvet-tongued diplomat the earth has ever seen -- say "no" and keep saying "no".

Quote:

Bush seems to want to prove his manhood with the blood of others and war is always his first option.




Bush didn't start the war. This is between Israel and Hezbollah. I thought those opposed to the Iraq war disliked the idea of the US involving itself in the affairs of other countries.


Phred


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5911975 - 07/29/06 12:56 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:


I wasn't saying anything other than that you should provide a link to back up your assertion. Is that too much to ask? I just checked the fucking link you posted and it is interminable and full of mentions of individual violations, If there is something that points to a systemic abuse of Israeli Arabs please pull it out.

I find you to be dishonest, since if you had found something there to back your point you could have pasted that. In which case I couldhave looked for the basic sentence or paragraph without having to weed through the whole fucking thing to try to guess what the fuck you were talking about. Capisce? You either have something to back up your assertion or you don't. If I don't see it I will assume you don't. Thanks in advance.




Christ, but that attitude is shitty. Do you always talk to people in that tone? How is a civilized discourse possible? Drop it already, everyone understands that your an angry old neo-con. WE GET IT.

On to pertinent matters. I'm completely dumbfounded that you looked through that link and claim you cant see what I'm talking about. Did you read ANY of that? Yes, it is a long link. I'm sorry for that, but occasionally, matters of state cannot be broken down into one sentence blurbs that would be easier to digest. Sorry.

Since you called me a liar, (A flame in every thread with you), I'll tell you why I'm not. You say if I the examples, I would have posted them. I told you, FLAT OUT, there are 100 examples in there. I posted them, en masse, if you will. Its not my fault you didnt look for them.

You say that since I've shown the things you claim dont happen, DO IN FACT HAPPEN, that now you want evidence of a vast conspiracy. How many individual instances have to be put together before it becomes obvious that the conduct is okay'ed from above? The fact is that the basic attitude of the Israeli Government HAS and ALWAYS WILL BE that anyone who isnt an Israeli Jew is not as good as someone who is. You know it and I know it. Trying to argue that they do not have that attitude is assinine.

You want it broken down into one paragraph to save you the trouble of actually reading something, Fine. Here. This sums things up rather nicely.


Quote:

Excerptfrom the 2004 STATE DEPARTMENT REPORT ON HUMAN RIGHTS

On Discrimination

The Orr Commission of Inquiry's report (see Section 1.a.) stated that the "Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory," that the Government "did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner." As a result, "serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system, and substantially defective infrastructure."





http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41723.htm


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: Phred]
    #5911984 - 07/29/06 01:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
How could it get any weaker? Eighteen members of the Lebanese legislature are Hezbollah already. So are two cabinet members. The Lebanese government has amply demonstrated it has no control over Hezbollah whatsoever. Hezbollah has been the de facto government of south Lebanon for years and years.

Israel has nothing to lose. Hezbollah must be defanged, and no one will defang them but Israel. It's not as if there are a whole lot of sensible alternatives here.

Phred




So if you admit that Lebanon has no control whatsoever over Hezbollah (Which we agree on), how to justify the destruction of civil improvements all over Lebanon? I mean power plants, bridges, etc. I can see the destruction of bridges and buildings in Southern Leb in order to prevent Hezbollah movement and assembly. I may think its criminal, but I can understand the military necessity.

But whats your justification for blowing the shit out of anything in Lebanon that can be used by the civilian population? Punishment?


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5912080 - 07/29/06 01:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I don't try to justify every single bomb dropped or artillery shell fired. But even if I did (which I don't), claiming the Israelis are "blowing the shit out of anything in Lebanon that can be used by the civilian population," is a wild exaggeration.

When I said the Lebanese government has amply demonstrated it has no control over Hezbollah whatsoever, I didn't mean to imply they cannot control Hezbollah if they set their mind to it, I merely point out that they have not up to now, and show no willingness to do so in the future. For what its worth, I sympathize with their plight -- disciplining Hezbollah could have unpleasant consequences for the Lebanese government. But it is Hezbollah who is the bad actor here. Someone has to defang them, and since the Lebanese government won't, Israel will.

The problem with Hezbollah as opposed to say Al Qaeda is that they aren't the same "stateless actors" Al Qaeda can be claimed to be. Hezbollah is a faction of the Lebanese government -- a "rump caucus" if you want to think of them that way, but a rump caucus which has taken it upon itself to perpetrate multiple and ongoing acts of war against a neighboring sovereign state. And the Lebanese government considers its Hezbollah members to be legitimate members of government. They're not interlopers who stormed the parliament buildings one day, murdered eighteen sitting members, took their seats and refused to leave. It's not enough for the rest of the Lebanese government to denounce these acts (though in the past they haven't done even that much), they have to stop the acts or face the consequences.

The Lebanese army should not be fighting the Israelis, they should be fighting alongside the Israelis to eliminate the goons who have hijacked Lebanon's foreign policy.




Phred


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #5912777 - 07/29/06 06:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:


I wasn't saying anything other than that you should provide a link to back up your assertion. Is that too much to ask? I just checked the fucking link you posted and it is interminable and full of mentions of individual violations, If there is something that points to a systemic abuse of Israeli Arabs please pull it out.

I find you to be dishonest, since if you had found something there to back your point you could have pasted that. In which case I couldhave looked for the basic sentence or paragraph without having to weed through the whole fucking thing to try to guess what the fuck you were talking about. Capisce? You either have something to back up your assertion or you don't. If I don't see it I will assume you don't. Thanks in advance.




Christ, but that attitude is shitty. Do you always talk to people in that tone? How is a civilized discourse possible? Drop it already, everyone understands that your an angry old neo-con. WE GET IT.

On to pertinent matters. I'm completely dumbfounded that you looked through that link and claim you cant see what I'm talking about. Did you read ANY of that? Yes, it is a long link. I'm sorry for that, but occasionally, matters of state cannot be broken down into one sentence blurbs that would be easier to digest. Sorry.

Since you called me a liar, (A flame in every thread with you), I'll tell you why I'm not. You say if I the examples, I would have posted them. I told you, FLAT OUT, there are 100 examples in there. I posted them, en masse, if you will. Its not my fault you didnt look for them.

You say that since I've shown the things you claim dont happen, DO IN FACT HAPPEN, that now you want evidence of a vast conspiracy. How many individual instances have to be put together before it becomes obvious that the conduct is okay'ed from above? The fact is that the basic attitude of the Israeli Government HAS and ALWAYS WILL BE that anyone who isnt an Israeli Jew is not as good as someone who is. You know it and I know it. Trying to argue that they do not have that attitude is assinine.

You want it broken down into one paragraph to save you the trouble of actually reading something, Fine. Here. This sums things up rather nicely.


Quote:

Excerptfrom the 2004 STATE DEPARTMENT REPORT ON HUMAN RIGHTS

On Discrimination

The Orr Commission of Inquiry's report (see Section 1.a.) stated that the "Government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory," that the Government "did not show sufficient sensitivity to the needs of the Arab population, and did not take enough action to allocate state resources in an equal manner." As a result, "serious distress prevailed in the Arab sector in various areas. Evidence of distress included poverty, unemployment, a shortage of land, serious problems in the education system, and substantially defective infrastructure."





http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41723.htm




Well thank you. This doesn't point to individual violations and is pretty nebulous in that it could probably describe every Arab nation in the world, but that's fine. "Sufficient sensitivity". That's always a good one, but that's fine.

I did not call you a liar, I said you were a dishonest debater. And you provided more evidence here by editting what you quoted to remove my citations from your link. To wit, these;
How about this beauty from your link
"There were no reports of politically motivated killings by the Government or its agents during the year."
And this;
"During the year, terrorist organizations such as the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, Hizballah, Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PLFP), committed numerous acts of terrorism in Israel as well as in the occupied territories."


This was the middle paragraph of my post. You deliberately editted it out. I stand by my assertion of your dishonest debating style and present more evidence.

And frankly, this nebulous, whiny bit of bullshit is laughable. Insufficiently sensitive indeed. Meanwhile, I provide the above redacted quotes. From your link.

Laughable.


--------------------


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Pat Buchanan: Israel right on Hezbollah, wrong on Lebanon [Re: Phred]
    #5912986 - 07/29/06 07:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You're the one admitting you haven't been following the situation very closely. Those of us who have remember the reports. Just go back to news reports from the first few days of the episode. Google "Arab League condemns Hezbollah" or "Saudi Arabia blames Hezbollah" or something similar.




Guess you missed this:

Quote:


Changing Reaction
Tide of Arab Opinion Turns to Support for Hezbollah

A crowd in Cairo on Wednesday, cordoned off by the police, condemned the killing of Lebanese civilians and expressed support for Hezbollah.

Article Tools Sponsored By
By NEIL MacFARQUHAR
Published: July 28, 2006

DAMASCUS, Syria, July 27 — At the onset of the Lebanese crisis, Arab governments, starting with Saudi Arabia, slammed Hezbollah for recklessly provoking a war, providing what the United States and Israel took as a wink and a nod to continue the fight.

Now, with hundreds of Lebanese dead and Hezbollah holding out against the vaunted Israeli military for more than two weeks, the tide of public opinion across the Arab world is surging behind the organization, transforming the Shiite group’s leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, into a folk hero and forcing a change in official statements.

The Saudi royal family and King Abdullah II of Jordan, who were initially more worried about the rising power of Shiite Iran, Hezbollah’s main sponsor, are scrambling to distance themselves from Washington.

An outpouring of newspaper columns, cartoons, blogs and public poetry readings have showered praise on Hezbollah while attacking the United States and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice for trumpeting American plans for a “new Middle East” that they say has led only to violence and repression.

Even Al Qaeda, run by violent Sunni Muslim extremists normally hostile to all Shiites, has gotten into the act, with its deputy leader, Ayman al-Zawahri, releasing a taped message saying that through its fighting in Iraq, his organization was also trying to liberate Palestine.

Mouin Rabbani, a senior Middle East analyst in Amman, Jordan, with the International Crisis Group, said, “The Arab-Israeli conflict remains the most potent issue in this part of the world.”

Distinctive changes in tone are audible throughout the Sunni world. This week, President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt emphasized his attempts to arrange a cease-fire to protect all sects in Lebanon, while the Jordanian king announced that his country was dispatching medical teams “for the victims of Israeli aggression.” Both countries have peace treaties with Israel.

The Saudi royal court has issued a dire warning that its 2002 peace plan — offering Israel full recognition by all Arab states in exchange for returning to the borders that predated the 1967 Arab-Israeli war — could well perish.

“If the peace option is rejected due to the Israeli arrogance,” it said, “then only the war option remains, and no one knows the repercussions befalling the region, including wars and conflict that will spare no one, including those whose military power is now tempting them to play with fire.”

The Saudis were putting the West on notice that they would not exert pressure on anyone in the Arab world until Washington did something to halt the destruction of Lebanon, Saudi commentators said.

American officials say that while the Arab leaders need to take a harder line publicly for domestic political reasons, what matters more is what they tell the United States in private, which the Americans still see as a wink and a nod.

There are evident concerns among Arab governments that a victory for Hezbollah — and it has already achieved something of a victory by holding out this long — would further nourish the Islamist tide engulfing the region and challenge their authority. Hence their first priority is to cool simmering public opinion.

But perhaps not since President Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt made his emotional outpourings about Arab unity in the 1960’s, before the Arab defeat in the 1967 war, has the public been so electrified by a confrontation with Israel, played out repeatedly on satellite television stations with horrific images from Lebanon of wounded children and distraught women fleeing their homes.

Egypt’s opposition press has had a field day comparing Sheik Nasrallah to Nasser, while demonstrators waved pictures of both.

An editorial in the weekly Al Dustur by Ibrahim Issa, who faces a lengthy jail sentence for his previous criticism of President Mubarak, compared current Arab leaders to the medieval princes who let the Crusaders chip away at Muslim lands until they controlled them all.

After attending an intellectual rally in Cairo for Lebanon, the Egyptian poet Ahmed Fouad Negm wrote a column describing how he had watched a companion buy 20 posters of Sheik Nasrallah.

“People are praying for him as they walk in the street, because we were made to feel oppressed, weak and handicapped,” Mr. Negm said in an interview. “I asked the man who sweeps the street under my building what he thought, and he said: ‘Uncle Ahmed, he has awakened the dead man inside me! May God make him triumphant!’ ”

In Lebanon, Rasha Salti, a freelance writer, summarized the sense that Sheik Nasrallah differed from other Arab leaders.

“Since the war broke out, Hassan Nasrallah has displayed a persona, and public behavior also, to the exact opposite of Arab heads of states,” she wrote in an e-mail message posted on many blogs.

In comparison, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice’s brief visit to the region sparked widespread criticism of her cold demeanor and her choice of words, particularly a statement that the bloodshed represented the birth pangs of a “new Middle East.” That catchphrase was much used by Shimon Peres, the veteran Israeli leader who was a principal negotiator of the 1993 Oslo Accords, which ultimately failed to lead to the Palestinian state they envisaged.

A cartoon by Emad Hajjaj in Jordan labeled “The New Middle East” showed an Israeli tank sitting on a broken apartment house in the shape of the Arab world.

Fawaz al-Trabalsi, a columnist in the Lebanese daily As Safir, suggested that the real new thing in the Middle East was the ability of one group to challenge Israeli militarily.

Perhaps nothing underscored Hezbollah’s rising stock more than the sudden appearance of a tape from the Qaeda leadership attempting to grab some of the limelight.

Al Jazeera satellite television broadcast a tape from Mr. Zawahri (za-WAH-ri). Large panels behind him showed a picture of the exploding World Trade Center as well as portraits of two Egyptian Qaeda members, Muhammad Atef, a Qaeda commander who was killed by an American airstrike in Afghanistan, and Mohamed Atta, the lead hijacker on Sept. 11, 2001. He described the two as fighters for the Palestinians.

Mr. Zawahri tried to argue that the fight against American forces in Iraq paralleled what Hezbollah was doing, though he did not mention the organization by name.

“It is an advantage that Iraq is near Palestine,” he said. “Muslims should support its holy warriors until an Islamic emirate dedicated to jihad is established there, which could then transfer the jihad to the borders of Palestine.”

Mr. Zawahri also adopted some of the language of Hezbollah and Shiite Muslims in general. That was rather ironic, since previously in Iraq, Al Qaeda has labeled Shiites Muslim as infidels and claimed responsibility for some of the bloodier assaults on Shiite neighborhoods there.

But by taking on Israel, Hezbollah had instantly eclipsed Al Qaeda, analysts said. “Everyone will be asking, ‘Where is Al Qaeda now?’ ” said Adel al-Toraifi, a Saudi columnist and expert on Sunni extremists.

Mr. Rabbani of the International Crisis Group said Hezbollah’s ability to withstand the Israeli assault and to continue to lob missiles well into Israel exposed the weaknesses of Arab governments with far greater resources than Hezbollah.

“Public opinion says that if they are getting more on the battlefield than you are at the negotiating table, and you have so many more means at your disposal, then what the hell are you doing?” Mr. Rabbani said. “In comparison with the small embattled guerrilla movement, the Arab states seem to be standing idly by twiddling their thumbs.”

Mona el-Naggar contributed reporting from Cairo for this article, and Suha Maayeh from Amman, Jordan.





http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/world/...3f3f&ei=5087%0A


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