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PurpleKush
Rational Lunatic


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lizards
#5903053 - 07/26/06 09:01 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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i've always wanted a lizard, but i haven't ever had the place for one. ive got space now, and i'm getting interested in it. the only ones that ive seen kept as pets have been iguanas. they're cool, but i always like to have something different than most people.
what other lizards are good for pets? i know some of them, like chameleons, are really hard to keep as pets. which sucks, cuz id like to get stoned and watch one change colors. 
i know nothing about this subhect, so all advice is welcome.
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eris
underground


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I think I've seen geckos and stuff like that in pet stores before. A bunch of other types of exotic looking lizards that looked neat but that I'm not very familiar with.
-------------------- Immortal / Temporarily Retired The OG Thread Killer My mushroom hunting gallery
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Schwip
Never sleeps.


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bearded dragons make good pets 

-------------------- -------------------------------- " If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. " .............. "MAN! You know there aint no such thing as left over crack!"
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PurpleKush
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Re: lizards [Re: Schwip]
#5903090 - 07/26/06 09:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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that guy is awesome! how big do they get?
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Schwip
Never sleeps.


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They usually max out around 18 inches or so. But i hear there is a bigger breed that will get up to 2 feet
-------------------- -------------------------------- " If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. " .............. "MAN! You know there aint no such thing as left over crack!"
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debianlinux
Myconerd - DBK



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Re: lizards [Re: Schwip]
#5903110 - 07/26/06 09:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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lol, what kind of lizard are we talking about again. mind, meet gutter.
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Schwip
Never sleeps.


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lol
-------------------- -------------------------------- " If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. " .............. "MAN! You know there aint no such thing as left over crack!"
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rod
Ψ


Registered: 06/29/05
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I have a friend with a green iguana, thats about 14 years old, its cool. But gila monsters make good pets also if your careful
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debianlinux
Myconerd - DBK



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Re: lizards [Re: rod]
#5903172 - 07/26/06 09:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
rod said: But gila monsters make good pets as long as they keep your appendages out of their mouths
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rod
Ψ


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they cant run that fast LOL
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CaptainHeadbang
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I had a couple of Chinese Water Dragons for awhile, and I can say from working at a reptile store when i was 17, that the Water Dragons are way, way, way easier and cleaner to take care of then say an Iguana. They will sit on your hat or shoulder just like an iguana would, and they dont shit nasty looking egg yolk looking shit like an Iguana would. If you want something thats pretty active, and original, get a Water Dragon.
They also eat anything from crickets, to baby mice and can run on water, which is cool to watch
-------------------- I Bang My Head Because The Gods Command It!
Edited by CaptainHeadbang (07/26/06 09:32 PM)
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eris
underground


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PurpleKush
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Re: lizards [Re: eris]
#5903248 - 07/26/06 09:45 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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yeah, but can they be kept in captivity? i like the black and orange one, what kind is that? what is the blue/yellow?
those water dragons seem like a good possibility too.
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CaptainHeadbang
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One thing i should add is that you dont want to hold them when you take acid. they will absorb it through your skin and into theirs and being quite honest, i thought my water dragon Leary, was gonna die. Leary turned out to be ok after that, but he turned black for hours, and i learned a valuable lesson in herpetology
-------------------- I Bang My Head Because The Gods Command It!
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eris
underground


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I have no idea if they can be kept.. seems like if you can take care of one lizard you can take care of them all. Of course some might be adjusted to certain conditions that it might be difficult to reproduce. It probably varies between each individual lizard.
I think more of a problem would be finding them in stores, since they are probably either exotic, rare, or expensive.
Anyway the second blue/yellow one is "Eastern Collared Lizard" - http://www.wildlifedepartment.com/lizard.htm
I can't seem to find out what kind the black/orange one is.
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Lily_Morgan
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Most people don't realize that green iguanas can reach up to 7 feet long (for males.) My roommate and I are using her old iguana set up as a fruiting chamber...
She tells me that if you have the equipment, chameleons really aren't too hard to keep. You just have to keep the heat/humidity levels right.
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CaptainHeadbang
Metal God


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i had a green tree frog once that got out of his terrarium, when i found him, he had melted into the carpet. it was gross
-------------------- I Bang My Head Because The Gods Command It!
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Schwip
Never sleeps.


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i wonder if you can find these to buy anywhere?
Frilled Lizard

-------------------- -------------------------------- " If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. " .............. "MAN! You know there aint no such thing as left over crack!"
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makaveli8x8
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Quote:
Lily_Morgan said: My roommate and I are using her old iguana set up as a fruiting chamber...
dude thats just fucking sick and disguesting using a dead iguana for a fruiting chamber....
but on another topic....i had a collard lizard once they are really cool, you set them on your carpet and they will run around on there back to feet its pretty coool....but you have to dust the crickets you feed them so they get enough calcium and also they need lots of good lighting to abosrb nutrients right......if you don't they will die like mine
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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PurpleKush
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Re: lizards [Re: Schwip]
#5903331 - 07/26/06 10:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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looks like jurassic park or something.
i think its a toss up between a bearded dragon and a water dragon. ill just have to start checkin out pet stores to see what i can find soon. one of my buddies has a damn alligator, its almost three feet now.
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eris
underground


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Cool, where did you get the collard lizard?
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rod
Ψ


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Quote:
CaptainHeadbang said: i had a green tree frog once that got out of his terrarium, when i found him, he had melted into the carpet. it was gross
I started with 4, nows theres 2 left, they can figure out how to get out of the smallest holes.
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makaveli8x8
Stranger

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Re: lizards [Re: rod]
#5903360 - 07/26/06 10:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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i bought it at petco, but then about a few months later they disapeared and havn't seen them again....but i bet you anything if you talk to the manager than can find you one...they swap birds out from store to store like that...shitty but true...heard of some birds being like 10-20 years of that shit.
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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CaptainHeadbang
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Re: lizards [Re: rod]
#5903366 - 07/26/06 10:12 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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yeah, those frogs are a hassle to take care of. i dont know anyone that has had very much luck keeping them healthy and in there cages
-------------------- I Bang My Head Because The Gods Command It!
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makaveli8x8
Stranger

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remember nutes or red bellied nutes or some shit? i used to have fun with them as a kid, but they always died in like a week or something
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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eris
underground


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I used to catch some kind of nutes (or however it's spelled) in a little stream in my back yard. Brings back memories
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rod
Ψ


Registered: 06/29/05
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yea, but I love that crocking early in the morning, and when they hear car horns honk, they answer back, thinking there going to get some.
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Lily_Morgan
I'm #1 !!

Registered: 07/05/06
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Re: lizards [Re: rod]
#5903390 - 07/26/06 10:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think someone commented on me using a dead iguana as a fruiting chamber.
Um, yeah, read that sentence again. It says iguana SET UP, i.e. gigantic cage, automatic humidity sprayers, and heat lamps.
Don't be an idiot. I really hope you were being sarcastic.
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makaveli8x8
Stranger

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lol i know what you ment but with the lack of puntuation i replyed to how it was read, yes sarcastic joke....and yet another person calls me an idiot <---pulls out the sledge hammer
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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eclipse
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depnding how much room you have a nile monitor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile_monitor
can be an awesome pet.A friend and myself raised on from approximately 2 months old until he went to college and could not take it with him.They take a good amopunt of patience but are awesome,itll blow your friends minds if you train him well enough that he will respond and come when called by name.I really only like lizards that are carnivorous as they are more fun to feed IMO. ( I am the same way with fish,I only keep cichlids and other live food eating fish.)But thhey can live for a long time and can be a very rewarding experience,if you are loking for somthing a littl less hands on and quite a bit less space consumign geckos asre also pretty cool
-------------------- All that is now All that is gone All thats to come And everything under the sun is in tune But the sun is eclipsed by the moon. PF
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Schwip
Never sleeps.


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Re: lizards [Re: Schwip]
#5903492 - 07/26/06 10:44 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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-------------------- -------------------------------- " If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. " .............. "MAN! You know there aint no such thing as left over crack!"
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard


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My roomate has been talking about getting a savanna monitor lizard. I hear they are really cool and have alot of personality. Still though, it seems like a lizard could only be so loving compared to a dog or cat.
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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PurpleKush
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Re: lizards [Re: eclipse]
#5903520 - 07/26/06 10:50 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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i dont know about a moniter... a 6 foot lizard would be a little too much for me. my pitbull would probably kill it anyways.
i need something i can keep in a tank where my dog can't get to it
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nicechrisman
Interdimensional space wizard


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from what he was saying, it sounds like they are a little smaller than some of the moniters, but I'm really just talking out my ass about what I heard 2nd hand from someone else. Oh well...
-------------------- "Cosmic Love is absolutelely ruthless and highly indifferent: it teaches its lessons whether you like/dislike them or not." John C. Lily
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Scratcher
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if you want to start with something smaller and easy to keep, check out leopard geckos. they are very slow moving and pretty fragile but still very cool and they come in a variety of different color morphs these days. whatever you get though, do some research on their needs, most herps are very specialized.
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CaptainHeadbang
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Re: lizards [Re: eclipse]
#5903616 - 07/26/06 11:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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my buddy took a crack at keeping a couple of those nile monitors. he could hold his female without any problems, but the male was about 2 1/2 feet of straight up evil. the monitor eventually killed the female and was sold to a prison guard cause he was such a bitch
-------------------- I Bang My Head Because The Gods Command It!
Edited by CaptainHeadbang (07/26/06 11:13 PM)
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Gumby
Fishnologist


Registered: 06/13/01
Posts: 26,656
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As you may know, fish, reptiles, amphibians, and arachnids are my area of interest. I've kept everything from pythons, to geckos, to chamaeleons.
If you're looking for a "starter" or first time lizard, Bearded Dragons are by far the BEST for a beginner. They're full of personality and eat both veggies and insects. They're very personable and learn to love their owners. I've been to numerous herp shows (herps= reptiles/amphibans/kinda arachnids). Max head to tail leng I've seen on a beardie was 2 feet, but that was a male sandfire breeder.
I'd say the second best beginner lizard is a leopard gecko. Not very demanding, and somewhat personable if you socialize them. Easy to breed. Great colors too.
Lizards for a first timer to stay away from: Chameleons, Day Geckos, or anything super tropical. Also avoid monitors at all costs. They get huge, most have bad temperments and can destroy you when they get angry. Expensive to feed too. Of course, Iguanas are popular, but a horrible choice for a novice. They're prone to all kinds of health problems, get huge (like said, up to 7 feet) and can also do horrible damage to you if they're not socialized.
I'd actually stick chameleons in the "specialist" group. They require a lot of work, as do must tropical herps. Another expert only lizard are Gila Monsters and Beaded Lizards. They might be cool as hell, but they are moderately-dangerously venomous. They're also ungodly expensive and illegal in most states,
My dream lizards: Gila Monster, Frilled Dragon, and Blue Tongue Skink.
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Gumby
Fishnologist


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Re: lizards [Re: eris]
#5903654 - 07/26/06 11:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
eris said: I used to catch some kind of nutes (or however it's spelled) in a little stream in my back yard. Brings back memories
Newts
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makaveli8x8
Stranger

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Re: lizards [Re: Gumby]
#5903695 - 07/26/06 11:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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bearded dragons are prob your best bet like he said, they will actually wave to you eventually, and when there is a group in a cage you sometimes will see them wave to each other....they are a very smart lizard...human like.
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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PurpleKush
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Re: lizards [Re: Gumby]
#5903732 - 07/26/06 11:34 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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first, thanks. you kick ass. 
that being said, i'm gonna go ahead and go with a bearded dragon. it'll be a few weeks until i get into my house, but i definately want to get one of these guys. the idea is growing on me more and more.
thanks to everyone who replied
 
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makaveli8x8
Stranger

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they also have different colors of beared dragons, do a google search...actually ill do one and give you a few links. give me a second
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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makaveli8x8
Stranger

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oh and you are still sopposed to dust crickets for bearded dragons like once a week or day or something i think and he prob still needs a uv bulb like most lizards
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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makaveli8x8
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here's a list of breeders of retiles for starters
http://www.kingsnake.com/breeder.html
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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makaveli8x8
Stranger

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ok here check this link out gives a good idea of the different color morphs
http://www.dragonsdenherp.com/htm2/dragons.htm
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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PurpleKush
Rational Lunatic


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what seem to be the most desirable colors or traits? i like the red headed ones myself. or maybe an all red one. color doesn't really matter, though.
whats all this about clear nails?
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makaveli8x8
Stranger

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and here is a care sheet for them, dusting crickets is really easy you they come in plastic bags you just dump some power in there and shake the bag your done.
http://www.dragonsdenherp.com/htm2/cs_dragon_eng.htm
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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makaveli8x8
Stranger

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where did you read about nails?
im not 100% sure i havn't really read up on it but i don't believe color has any bearing on behavior but i guess its possible.
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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PurpleKush
Rational Lunatic


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ive just noticed that "clear nailed" dragons seem to always be more expensive, or advertised as better for some reason.
i might get a pair of them...
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eris
underground


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Re: lizards [Re: Gumby]
#5903832 - 07/26/06 11:52 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ah no wonder I couldnt find it. Thanks.
-------------------- Immortal / Temporarily Retired The OG Thread Killer My mushroom hunting gallery
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Gumby
Fishnologist


Registered: 06/13/01
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If you want a high quality beardie at a low price, your best bet is going to a herp(reptile) show.
Best prices on anything you'd ever want. I got a 1.5 green burmese python about 2 years after the breed was "created" at a herp show for $150.
A 6-8 incher (H-T) standard beardie will run you around $40-50 at shows.
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PurpleKush
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Re: lizards [Re: Gumby]
#5903853 - 07/26/06 11:56 PM (17 years, 6 months ago) |
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sounds like something that would be pretty interesting. are there any herp shows in our area soon?
is there a certain organization that runs them?
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makaveli8x8
Stranger

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--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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makaveli8x8
Stranger

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also another thing ot consider, but a little more expensive is a bird and im not talkin about them ones you find at petco...you buy a baby bird from a breeder and if you take it out everyday he will quickly become your best friend.
--------------------
  We were sent to hell for eternity Ø h® We play on earth to pass the time Over-population the root of all Evil-brings the Elites Closer to the gates.
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Iamthewalrus
every evening Idied and everynight I wasreborn


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I just took a cool pic of my gekko tonight

Edited by Iamthewalrus (07/27/06 07:39 AM)
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Acidic_Sloth
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Leopard Gecko!
i have one too, no pictures of him though. they are so neat and cute. i really <3 my leopard gecko.
i also have a savanna monitor. he's really cool. looks prehistoric. his name is Ta-Kun (from FLCL).

-------------------- -- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --
JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD" -- JaP: What would this place be without random sluts? JaP: Nothing, I tell you.
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Iamthewalrus
every evening Idied and everynight I wasreborn


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ya he is adorable...so gentle...he gets so relaxed in my hands(they love the heat too)
Edited by Iamthewalrus (07/27/06 08:36 AM)
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Colonel Kurtz Ph.D
What What?

Registered: 07/22/04
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Loc: Shadow Moses
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Leopard Geckos are the easiest lizard to keep around, they aren't too big, are really easy to care for and pretty cute  I'm gonna get one ASAP.
--------------------
There's no better way to rock out than with your cock out!!
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Blutjager
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I have had so many lizards hat I don't even know where to began,I would have to agree with sloth on the Savannah monitor as the best lizard that I ever owned.He was actually the best pet I ever owned,Always friendly always entertaining.Blue tongue skinks are also great pets.And to whoever asked yes you can get frilled dragons as pets but in captivity they will get used to ppl and you will rarely if ever stick there frills out like that so essentially they are just a bearded dragon with a longer tail.Go to http://www.gherp.com/ they usually can get ya just about anything ya want (Bet ya didn't know you could get a rattlesnake delivered to your house for 25 bucks)Your welcome
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PurpleKush
Rational Lunatic


Registered: 03/20/06
Posts: 3,421
Loc: Above The Law
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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walrus - cool gecko, are all of their tails like that or is he about to drop a load? 
A_S - nice moniter, he looks like a really chill guy
does anyone know if there are any purple lizards? i did a google search, but came up with nothing.
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Iamthewalrus
every evening Idied and everynight I wasreborn


Registered: 03/24/04
Posts: 3,744
Loc: Ontario
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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thats a REALLY cool lizard btw sloth...I used to have an iguana when I was 16 as well...actually we got a these lil lizards my sis gets from florida...she works for a greenhouse and they come with the shippin sometimes...shes got some frogs too...I'll go snap a pic(he bites apparently)
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Iamthewalrus
every evening Idied and everynight I wasreborn


Registered: 03/24/04
Posts: 3,744
Loc: Ontario
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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fuck hes so fuckin small I can't even find him...but I got a cool pic of some fishies
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youngirl
smile.

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 72
Loc: Portland area.
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
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smashing tank & colors.
-------------------- When you come to the edge of all the light you know...and you are about to step off in to the darkness. Faith is believing one of the two things will happen...there will be something solid for you to stand on or you will learn to fly.
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Iamthewalrus
every evening Idied and everynight I wasreborn


Registered: 03/24/04
Posts: 3,744
Loc: Ontario
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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thx thats actually my sisters tank
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ClammyJoe
Azurescen Head



Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 3,691
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
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I'd say a leopard gecko is a good bet, they are very docile, can be handled easily, and are very low maintenance. My brother had a run-of-the-mill one for a while, and it was pretty easy to take care of and fun to play with.
But if I was you, I'd grab some of the super-breeds, like this bad boy here

He's like twice the size they usually get, from special breeding. They also offer up some crazy colors
 Normal ones never Carry colors like this
 They have ones with red eyes, black eyes, and snake-like eyes
 This one has the more normal pattern, but is of a giant breeds heritage.
Edited by TheMadConductor (07/27/06 12:54 PM)
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Iamthewalrus
every evening Idied and everynight I wasreborn


Registered: 03/24/04
Posts: 3,744
Loc: Ontario
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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I love this lizard...its so docile like u mentioned...it knows I mean no harm and it enjoys the warmth of my hands(and sometimes like to crawl around on me) very very cute and sweet
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Iamthewalrus
every evening Idied and everynight I wasreborn


Registered: 03/24/04
Posts: 3,744
Loc: Ontario
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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actually the person who had the gecko before me ripped its tail off(some fuckin kid) so thats the tail being regrown(I'm assumin its looking similar to his head as a defence) considering what happened to him hes still the sweetest lil guy...he definitely trusts me
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drowneduck
The Mad Scot


Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 731
Loc: Lurkland UK
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Kept that many lizards iv lost count.One of the coolest things with some, is they will display to each other,W/dragons, wave their front feet,which is comical to watch.Anoles,on the other hand, change from brown to green,while the males bob their heads,and puff up their throats.Both are easy to keep and breed, but the former need vitamin B3.Dusting their food with powdered cuttlefish bone doesn't go wrong either.Reading all this makes me want to get some more.
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CaptainHeadbang
Metal God


Registered: 07/17/06
Posts: 69
Loc: Planet Caravan
Last seen: 16 years, 5 months
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yeah, i plan on getting some more water dragons someday, but first, i want to move into a place that i can set them up with their own room. preferably a tiled bathroom that i can convert into a partial rainforest for them with a small pool/fountain. alot of trouble, but i plan on going all out for the little guys next time...i always felt so bad having to cage them up because they dont like to sit around alot. if i could have a room like that for them, i would be in there every day after work, just smokin out with my dragon homies!
-------------------- I Bang My Head Because The Gods Command It!
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Scratcher
Stranger

Registered: 01/05/00
Posts: 2,323
Loc: eH
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i kept and bred snakes for about 10 years but got out of the hobby about 6 years ago. i seriously have the itch to get back into it. instead of having 20 common ones, though, i'll have a pair or two or some high end species. i don't know what my dream snake would be right now but back then it was the green tree python, especially the high yellow ones:


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Iamthewalrus
every evening Idied and everynight I wasreborn


Registered: 03/24/04
Posts: 3,744
Loc: Ontario
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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im chillin with my gecko do what a black mamba but thats pretty harcore
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LosAngelesGraff
Ca Shroomite



Registered: 06/09/06
Posts: 7,047
Loc: Califas
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gekos are good their are diffrent types to some even glow well under a black light... be sure to take extra care for them cause some lizards are delicate.i seen some die D=
--------------------
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Acidic_Sloth
Acidic poly-Sided Di-slothamide


Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 43,732
Loc: ainrofilac
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wow, i did not know there were so many different varieties. is this a fairly recent thing?
i've had my leopard gecko for 8 1/2 years and had no clue they came in different colours. this must be a more recent thing, like within the last few years.
also, the monitor is chill now, but he wasn't when i first got him. he tore my fingers open a few times when he was a baby. he's only chill now because i insited on holding him every day when he was young regardless of if he liked it or not. now he loves to be held and is quite sweet for a savanna (they are normally aggressive). he's also extrememly smart and will get quite big. i can't wait to start taking him for walks.
-------------------- -- Accept my heart warming gift of TREE SCRATCHIES!!! I absolve thee!! --
JaP: 30,000 lines of gay, cock, and fag can't be wrong Ped: only in #shroomery is "smuggle opium in her ass" followed by "i don't want shitty opium" which is followed by " *** Joins: PENISSQUAD" -- JaP: What would this place be without random sluts? JaP: Nothing, I tell you.
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